I worry that my church small group is making me feel worse vs. uplifted
- Thread starter TarHeelEmilie
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K
We're talking about a lady that is in grieving, you do realize that? I don't think she's really that concerned about church protocol right now. She's trying to find comfort and healing. So maybe we can talk about how to deal with the old bitty committee some other time. That's the least of her worries.
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Welcome Emily, thank you so much for your transparency here and with others. A miscarriage is so hard. My heart reaches out to hug yours.
I am sorry that the response has not always been as you wanted or needed. Stumbling is something those around us do, just like us. Sometimes it helps to communicate that you are not looking to be fixed but just to share.
It can be quite challenging to be vulnerable like that. It can leave one feeling embarrassed raw and exposed. Folks can draw conclusions about the content and about your character and mindset. I suppose that is an inevitable consequence of opening up.
Humans assume and presume stuff no matter what you do or dont.
No matter what, though, your truth is just that, and regardless if it is shared or not, doesn't change, except maybe in its hold over you.
I pray that you find someone that you feel safe with, someone who points to Christ, His mercy and love.
In the beginning, middle and/or end
Only God knows our hearts and He is our refuge in the storm.
Again, I am so sorry that your heart and mind are hurting. I am lifting you and your precious family in prayer.
I am sorry that the response has not always been as you wanted or needed. Stumbling is something those around us do, just like us. Sometimes it helps to communicate that you are not looking to be fixed but just to share.
It can be quite challenging to be vulnerable like that. It can leave one feeling embarrassed raw and exposed. Folks can draw conclusions about the content and about your character and mindset. I suppose that is an inevitable consequence of opening up.
Humans assume and presume stuff no matter what you do or dont.
No matter what, though, your truth is just that, and regardless if it is shared or not, doesn't change, except maybe in its hold over you.
I pray that you find someone that you feel safe with, someone who points to Christ, His mercy and love.
In the beginning, middle and/or end
Only God knows our hearts and He is our refuge in the storm.
Again, I am so sorry that your heart and mind are hurting. I am lifting you and your precious family in prayer.
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You can post in the ladies forum here if you wish. I have and nobody has gone and told anyone else about stuff I shared. Also nobody has knocked on my door or harassed me about what I posted. There might be the odd person whos disagreed or not liked what I had to share and given unhelpful comments, but you will always get that wherever you go. I would not worry about those people, they have their own issues.
Eg i shared I had a problem with a friend who seemed really clingy. Or over-friendly people. I wanted to know if others had the same issue and what they did about it. Well its seems lots of other women did too but then one seemed really angry that I shared my concern cos she herself didnt have any close friends.
With your group I think it may have struck home with the one lady that was infertile showing up her own issues. Just pray for her. You dont have to go back to that group, but sometimes when we share stuff for example bullies, people recongise that behaviour in themselves and somehow because they are convicted, will try and cover up their own by putting you down for bringing it up.
Eg i shared I had a problem with a friend who seemed really clingy. Or over-friendly people. I wanted to know if others had the same issue and what they did about it. Well its seems lots of other women did too but then one seemed really angry that I shared my concern cos she herself didnt have any close friends.
With your group I think it may have struck home with the one lady that was infertile showing up her own issues. Just pray for her. You dont have to go back to that group, but sometimes when we share stuff for example bullies, people recongise that behaviour in themselves and somehow because they are convicted, will try and cover up their own by putting you down for bringing it up.
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A Hard Look At Humans:
The Real Situation:
The people in question are already being manipulative, abusive, and demonstrating they have power and control issues.
It is ignorant and harmful to try and reason with abusive, manipulative people... it is appropriate to just avoid them.
We should NEVER tell a shy, frightened, easily manipulated person to go and REASON with their abuser.
I think your advice had good intentions, I really do... but it's not the appropriate advice under the circumstances.
The Bible:
We should study the book of Proverbs.
The Bible says it's APPROPRIATE to avoid bad people who are harmful to you.
The Bible even says you SHOULD avoid harmful people.
These principles are all through scripture, but they're especially succinct in Proverbs.
A study of Proverbs reveals a lot of practical psychology, and a lot of practical advice... practical advice about human nature that did NOT become null when God created the New Testament Church.
JESUS:
1. Jesus said he believed the Old Testament... where all this psychological advice is given.
2. Jesus sometimes talked about "shaking the dust off your feet", and staying away from ignorant people.
3. Jesus sometimes "told people off", INSTEAD of trying to reason with them... because he knew they had bad hearts and wouldn't listen to reason anyway.
(Here we get the principle we aren't obligated to reason with people who've already PROVEN they aren't reasonable.)
Jesus wasn't all warm and fuzzy all the time.
He talked about hell, he confronted people, he called people out, and he sometimes REFUSED to even talk to people who had bad hearts and weren't listening.
Jesus showed us there is a TIME and PLACE for different approaches to people... depending on their own attitudes.
Overview:
When a person is being abusive and manipulative, that is not an "innocent mistake" that can be corrected with a little chat.
That is a SERIOUS and DEEP SEATED issue, that you CANNOT RESOLVE, that needs to be brought to the pastor.
An abuser will just lie, and keep doing the same thing... you can NEVER reason with an abusive person.
Again, consider studying proverbs, and then studying ALL of the things Jesus said... not just the warm, fuzzy parts.
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Conclusion:
The Bible talks about balance, and about the right time for every thing.
There is a time and place for every thing.
And principles, all principles, always have to be weighed, and considered, in view of OTHER principles that balance them.
There is a time and place to talk to the brethren when you've been "offended".
But perhaps the key word today is "offended".
I don't think the situation at hand is a matter of being "offended."
I think the OP has pointed out individuals who are not merely "personally offensive", but who are actually ABUSIVE and MANIPULATIVE.
This goes beyond "feeling offended."
This is not a feeling.
This is not hurt feelings, or a personal insult.
This is not a merely personal offense; this is, rather, the identification of genuinely harmful and dangerous people.
If you identify a poisonous snake, then you try to reason with it... you deserve to get bit.
I think your post had genuinely good intentions.
But I think we need to view and balance ALL of scripture when we give personal counsel.
Caveat:
1. This is all stated with the presumption the OP is stating her side of things honestly and accurately.
2. The principles I gave above are normal, orthodox, Biblical principles, but they only APPLY to the OP's situation if the OP has been truthful and accurate.
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L
All this that you said in full context together is why I recommend the Jesus approach to handling things.
I can verify the veracity of her story but would never impugn her integrity. She is definitely dealing with a tough time.
I don't have enough information to nor the experience to speak to her grief I think that it's a far more suitable thing for the women on here to help her with the things I can never understand. Because even though my wife had a miscarriage early in our relationship, and it was hard for me. It was deviating to her. I wasn't much good to her in that. Not that I didn't try. I wish she had some good female role models to help her through it.
So I can only speak to the method for dealing with people.
I can verify the veracity of her story but would never impugn her integrity. She is definitely dealing with a tough time.
I don't have enough information to nor the experience to speak to her grief I think that it's a far more suitable thing for the women on here to help her with the things I can never understand. Because even though my wife had a miscarriage early in our relationship, and it was hard for me. It was deviating to her. I wasn't much good to her in that. Not that I didn't try. I wish she had some good female role models to help her through it.
So I can only speak to the method for dealing with people.
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Hi Sister. I'm a man and you may not want my option. as you are mostly talking to other women. and that is fine. let me say there is nothing impossible for our God. let me tell you something that happen in my life. I was praying for something very important in my life and I would never get an answer. I would get other people to pray with me and still nothing would happen. this went on for about two years never seeing anything change. I said well undoubtedly this is not god's will. about two months later I got a call and in less than five minutes what I needed to happen happened. and Sister I wish I could be there when the lord answers you prayer. because after all you have been through the lord is gonna bless you to death. you will be posting it all over these boards. God Bless You Sister.
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Too many voices comming at you.
You have officially encountered the "fixers"
Anytime you open up to a group you will get those "fixers" trying to get a notch in their gun belt.
Now you are forever marked as defective. Not by the nurturers,but the toxic fixers.
You need to TELL THEM "i am seeking the Lord" He will tell me what to do"
I like the phrase "God made me,He can fix me"
Go ahead and attend,but shut down those with all the ideas that destroy your vision. The Holy Ghost will put the right phrase in your spirit.
Something like "i cast that down" when they tell you what you know to be boggus.
We are led of the spirit and Those filled with the Holy Ghost bring life and encouragement.
Someone leads that meeting. Are the leaders aware they are troubling your spirit?
You have officially encountered the "fixers"
Anytime you open up to a group you will get those "fixers" trying to get a notch in their gun belt.
Now you are forever marked as defective. Not by the nurturers,but the toxic fixers.
You need to TELL THEM "i am seeking the Lord" He will tell me what to do"
I like the phrase "God made me,He can fix me"
Go ahead and attend,but shut down those with all the ideas that destroy your vision. The Holy Ghost will put the right phrase in your spirit.
Something like "i cast that down" when they tell you what you know to be boggus.
We are led of the spirit and Those filled with the Holy Ghost bring life and encouragement.
Someone leads that meeting. Are the leaders aware they are troubling your spirit?
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Hello dear. I see the benefit from what you have been going through almost immediately.
This is a very valuable lesson for you, and you should view it from the viewpoint that God sees it.
First off I want to thank you for your bravery in once again opening up, and further along go on with a little laugh, for what kind of advice do you think some of those people in this group would have given to Abraham and Sarah, when the Lord told
what was going to happen?
I do not in any way mean to insult you, but encourage you, for what is truth here?
You are saying that your time to conceive is soon running out. This is not true. Keep renewing your mind!
From a worldly mindset, yes, - but not in a life with the God of "impossible".
All things are possible for God, and He always has thoughts and a way of hope.
So set your hope and heart on the truth, and learn to discern and rely on the voice of love, life, and light.
God is truly good - faith is Light (whom God is) and the hope of the good things that has not happened, to happen.
Fear is the opposite, and fear is darkness. God has no part in fear.
How old was Sarah when she conceived, and how did she react when the Lord told her that she would give birth to a son?
What do you think those people you encountered in this situation would have said, if Sarah was in this group at around 90 years old, telling them that the Lord himself told her she would conceive? Would they acknowledge the hand of God in her life, or give ungodly advice?
What you have witnessed is carnal advice, Emilie, where they exlude the Creator, that for those whom believe -
reveals HIS glory for all that believe.
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? (John 11:40)
I myself have witnessed many miracles from the Lord. Never make doctrine either, of a temporary season - or let anyone influence you with unbelief because of something they have not seen themselves. Do always encourage people to faith and hope in God.
Always look to what the Word of God says.
He is the God that has the chance to do more than you can even think or imagine, so you must reject what you have heard,
when it exludes the hand of God.
Antidepressants is not needed in the presence and love of God - the reason you may be feeling weary in a season will also
be turned for your benefit, and the Lord Himself wants you to draw nigh unto him and spend time with Him in the quiet space and under the shadow of His wings, where you learn that he is your best friend - the one with the word of truth that stands for eternity, that all will answer to - protecting you from every evil tongue that comes against you.
You can trust God with your entire heart, and it truly is meant to be safe opening up to the true children of God.
They will guard your heart, and seek your wellbeing. We as children of the Lord, are in truth real brothers and sisters.
You are meant to be comfortable in speaking your heart amongst brothers and sisters, and the Lord himself will never reject
you when you speak truth from the heart with Him. He wants that deep intimate connection with you, and he wants His children to have that same deep intimate connection with eachother.
The advice you were given was not spiritual advice from the Lord. This kind of advice was carnal, and darkness - advice that speaks away from the truth and possibility of the hand of God to move, - where they keep you doubting, and points you to a place where you stop hoping in the One that can do anything.
What would God say to you - and what would a believer that truly knows the Lord say?
He has spoken, and He disagrees with the people that was meant to represent Him in this group.
A believer that has the Spirit of God within, and knows God will say: Whatsoever you ask you shall receive. Trust Him.
(John 14:13) (John 15:7)
So you should not be a respector of persons, - this is a learning process! - and not look to the outward appearance,
but from this experience bring with you the very valuable learning, the benefit for good, from this encounter -
From now you will learn and be able to discern if a tree is good or bad. You know what to look out for!
From now you will learn and be able to look no longer to the outward appearance and stature of man,
but try to discern and look to the heart as the Lord does.
From now you will be able to discern if this is truth or not - if they speak against God that can do, and is still doing all!
There are wolves, Emilie.
The wolf will first gain your trust, so that your heart is wide open and very receiving -
for this is the place that Satan tries to do the most damage and is effective in hurting you.
So bring your wounds to the Lord after what you have encountered, and let Him guard you and help you.
Visit those places in your heart together with Him, and let His light shine on it.
Do not become bitter. Do not become resentful - but guard yourself against things that tries to tear you down, and warn them about the fact that behaviour like this is not acceptable, - because they are not doing you good and building you up, as we are meant to do, and their advice is not Godly, - but leaves the One that can do all, out. If they do not listen to you, you can take it to the elders - but if they still do not listen, you can treat them as you would unbelievers, still and always in love - but not open up to them as if they are believers - representing the Lord.
We are always meant to move in love, and build eachother up, to faith and trust in the GOD that speaks truth. What will heaven be like? And what is life like now, when we have the Kingdom of God within us, as believers? Life is something completely different with God. So you will learn and keep renewing your mind, being able to discern good from evil and light from darkness.
From my viewpoint, after what I know about the Lord, and experiences I have had myself, you have gone through much that
can be a great benefit for you, for in many instances you would not be able to clearly see and know what to be aware of,
before you have experienced it, and from this scenario you will in the future be able to discern what you are to be aware of!
I want to adress one last thing;
"My experience with this group of female mentors has not been even remotely uplifting or encouraging. I have other friends outside the group who are also quite spiritual, and they have been cheering me on, telling me that nothing is impossible with God, etc. I was holding onto that little scrap of hope, but now after having talked with these mentors at the church, I feel absolutely wretched and hopeless. I am torn because I felt that perhaps the Lord was leading me to this group, but it has caused me more pain than good, and I don't want to go back. Should I follow the advice of the one lady and just accept things for what they are? I am not ready to give up, yet I feel that, coming from the mouth of a spiritual leader, maybe I should listen?
This has caused me such anxiety that I have felt physically sick. Any advice or insight y'all have is truly appreciated. Thank you!"
These people say they belong to God - but their fruits are bad.
You come to a place where you believe it is safe to be, and they gain your trust.
Your heart is wide open, and it always meant to be safe in the fellowship with true brothers and sister, they will guard you.
You know that it is safe to be with the Lord, and in the fellowship with your true brothers and sisters - but some are wolves in
sheeps clothing. You look to the outward appearance, and respect the person because of status, "spiritual leader" - you have ONE that is your spiritual leader - your head, this is the Lord himself!
You must always remember this, 1 John 2:27. Paul and Barnabas, what did they say!?
They told us even to reject angels, if they preached another gospel! Do not look to the outward appearance.
Our Lord is no respector of persons. You overlook the words spoken from their hearts, that reveals either light or darkness -
and look to the outward apperance. Not in vain, Emilie - there is a benefit here, and I am sure you will learn to see it.
So do not be grieved at the Lord, and do not lose hope in Him - he is very careful in upbringing you when you are a child of His.
Bring your hurts to Him, and replace them with the truth and Light that He speaks. Reject bad fruits, and bad advice.
Do not keep them in your heart. Do not take with you anything that is darkness.
Warm regards.
This is a very valuable lesson for you, and you should view it from the viewpoint that God sees it.
First off I want to thank you for your bravery in once again opening up, and further along go on with a little laugh, for what kind of advice do you think some of those people in this group would have given to Abraham and Sarah, when the Lord told
what was going to happen?
I do not in any way mean to insult you, but encourage you, for what is truth here?
You are saying that your time to conceive is soon running out. This is not true. Keep renewing your mind!
From a worldly mindset, yes, - but not in a life with the God of "impossible".
All things are possible for God, and He always has thoughts and a way of hope.
So set your hope and heart on the truth, and learn to discern and rely on the voice of love, life, and light.
God is truly good - faith is Light (whom God is) and the hope of the good things that has not happened, to happen.
Fear is the opposite, and fear is darkness. God has no part in fear.
How old was Sarah when she conceived, and how did she react when the Lord told her that she would give birth to a son?
What do you think those people you encountered in this situation would have said, if Sarah was in this group at around 90 years old, telling them that the Lord himself told her she would conceive? Would they acknowledge the hand of God in her life, or give ungodly advice?
What you have witnessed is carnal advice, Emilie, where they exlude the Creator, that for those whom believe -
reveals HIS glory for all that believe.
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? (John 11:40)
I myself have witnessed many miracles from the Lord. Never make doctrine either, of a temporary season - or let anyone influence you with unbelief because of something they have not seen themselves. Do always encourage people to faith and hope in God.
Always look to what the Word of God says.
He is the God that has the chance to do more than you can even think or imagine, so you must reject what you have heard,
when it exludes the hand of God.
Antidepressants is not needed in the presence and love of God - the reason you may be feeling weary in a season will also
be turned for your benefit, and the Lord Himself wants you to draw nigh unto him and spend time with Him in the quiet space and under the shadow of His wings, where you learn that he is your best friend - the one with the word of truth that stands for eternity, that all will answer to - protecting you from every evil tongue that comes against you.
You can trust God with your entire heart, and it truly is meant to be safe opening up to the true children of God.
They will guard your heart, and seek your wellbeing. We as children of the Lord, are in truth real brothers and sisters.
You are meant to be comfortable in speaking your heart amongst brothers and sisters, and the Lord himself will never reject
you when you speak truth from the heart with Him. He wants that deep intimate connection with you, and he wants His children to have that same deep intimate connection with eachother.
The advice you were given was not spiritual advice from the Lord. This kind of advice was carnal, and darkness - advice that speaks away from the truth and possibility of the hand of God to move, - where they keep you doubting, and points you to a place where you stop hoping in the One that can do anything.
What would God say to you - and what would a believer that truly knows the Lord say?
He has spoken, and He disagrees with the people that was meant to represent Him in this group.
A believer that has the Spirit of God within, and knows God will say: Whatsoever you ask you shall receive. Trust Him.
(John 14:13) (John 15:7)
So you should not be a respector of persons, - this is a learning process! - and not look to the outward appearance,
but from this experience bring with you the very valuable learning, the benefit for good, from this encounter -
From now you will learn and be able to discern if a tree is good or bad. You know what to look out for!
From now you will learn and be able to look no longer to the outward appearance and stature of man,
but try to discern and look to the heart as the Lord does.
From now you will be able to discern if this is truth or not - if they speak against God that can do, and is still doing all!
There are wolves, Emilie.
The wolf will first gain your trust, so that your heart is wide open and very receiving -
for this is the place that Satan tries to do the most damage and is effective in hurting you.
So bring your wounds to the Lord after what you have encountered, and let Him guard you and help you.
Visit those places in your heart together with Him, and let His light shine on it.
Do not become bitter. Do not become resentful - but guard yourself against things that tries to tear you down, and warn them about the fact that behaviour like this is not acceptable, - because they are not doing you good and building you up, as we are meant to do, and their advice is not Godly, - but leaves the One that can do all, out. If they do not listen to you, you can take it to the elders - but if they still do not listen, you can treat them as you would unbelievers, still and always in love - but not open up to them as if they are believers - representing the Lord.
We are always meant to move in love, and build eachother up, to faith and trust in the GOD that speaks truth. What will heaven be like? And what is life like now, when we have the Kingdom of God within us, as believers? Life is something completely different with God. So you will learn and keep renewing your mind, being able to discern good from evil and light from darkness.
From my viewpoint, after what I know about the Lord, and experiences I have had myself, you have gone through much that
can be a great benefit for you, for in many instances you would not be able to clearly see and know what to be aware of,
before you have experienced it, and from this scenario you will in the future be able to discern what you are to be aware of!
I want to adress one last thing;
"My experience with this group of female mentors has not been even remotely uplifting or encouraging. I have other friends outside the group who are also quite spiritual, and they have been cheering me on, telling me that nothing is impossible with God, etc. I was holding onto that little scrap of hope, but now after having talked with these mentors at the church, I feel absolutely wretched and hopeless. I am torn because I felt that perhaps the Lord was leading me to this group, but it has caused me more pain than good, and I don't want to go back. Should I follow the advice of the one lady and just accept things for what they are? I am not ready to give up, yet I feel that, coming from the mouth of a spiritual leader, maybe I should listen?
This has caused me such anxiety that I have felt physically sick. Any advice or insight y'all have is truly appreciated. Thank you!"
These people say they belong to God - but their fruits are bad.
You come to a place where you believe it is safe to be, and they gain your trust.
Your heart is wide open, and it always meant to be safe in the fellowship with true brothers and sister, they will guard you.
You know that it is safe to be with the Lord, and in the fellowship with your true brothers and sisters - but some are wolves in
sheeps clothing. You look to the outward appearance, and respect the person because of status, "spiritual leader" - you have ONE that is your spiritual leader - your head, this is the Lord himself!
You must always remember this, 1 John 2:27. Paul and Barnabas, what did they say!?
They told us even to reject angels, if they preached another gospel! Do not look to the outward appearance.
Our Lord is no respector of persons. You overlook the words spoken from their hearts, that reveals either light or darkness -
and look to the outward apperance. Not in vain, Emilie - there is a benefit here, and I am sure you will learn to see it.
So do not be grieved at the Lord, and do not lose hope in Him - he is very careful in upbringing you when you are a child of His.
Bring your hurts to Him, and replace them with the truth and Light that He speaks. Reject bad fruits, and bad advice.
Do not keep them in your heart. Do not take with you anything that is darkness.
Warm regards.
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Correction on message above: Galatians 1:6-10, Paul and the apostles of the Lord - (not Barnabas in particular.)
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
I also want to add a thing on the wolves.
They seem to be righteous, but they are not. They appear to be godly, but they are not.
So you will be able to discern between light and darkness!
Love, and the lack of love.
Read about love
1 Corinthians 13:4-5:
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs."
When someone walks after the Spirit - the fruits of the Spirit is meant to fill that person.
What are the fruits of the Spirit, and what are the fruits of the flesh?
Light and darkness. Love and hate. Righteousness versus unrighteousness.
We will become like Him, when we see him. He is light, and has no part in darkness.
So the truth is, dear Emilie - that you can always hope to see and experience the LIGHT of God in your life.
He is beyond amazing, and so, so good.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
I also want to add a thing on the wolves.
They seem to be righteous, but they are not. They appear to be godly, but they are not.
So you will be able to discern between light and darkness!
Love, and the lack of love.
Read about love
1 Corinthians 13:4-5:
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs."
When someone walks after the Spirit - the fruits of the Spirit is meant to fill that person.
What are the fruits of the Spirit, and what are the fruits of the flesh?
Light and darkness. Love and hate. Righteousness versus unrighteousness.
We will become like Him, when we see him. He is light, and has no part in darkness.
So the truth is, dear Emilie - that you can always hope to see and experience the LIGHT of God in your life.
He is beyond amazing, and so, so good.
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