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Ah, I understand now. If your post was directed toward Presidente rather than A-ray, then I concur. 
Really? I don't think confrontation is the best way to get the juices flowing. Just FYI, sex the is physically forced or otherwise coerced (for example, using guilt or spiritual "authority") is rape.
If you want to escalate the tension, then by all means, go ahead and confront her. But if you really love your wife and want to heal your relationship, then give her a hug, sit beside her, and ask her why she no longer feels like physically expressing her love to you. Ask how you can help, and let her know you are on her side and by her side for the long haul. Make it the two of you against the problem, not you against her.
If you want to escalate the tension, then by all means, go ahead and confront her. But if you really love your wife and want to heal your relationship, then give her a hug, sit beside her, and ask her why she no longer feels like physically expressing her love to you. Ask how you can help, and let her know you are on her side and by her side for the long haul. Make it the two of you against the problem, not you against her.
I agree with your point, but I took exception with this: "Tell her that you feel ripped off. You chose to marry rather than to be celibate for life because you wanted to have sex." This just sounds very callous and is NOT going to help the situation at all. He should address the problem, but it would be much more beneficial for him to approach it in a better way, such as letting her know that he loves and needs her, that he cares about her, and that he is concerned about the health of their marriage.
OP - please do not tell your wife that you feel ripped off, or that you married her for sex. (I don't believe that you really feel that way, since you've obviously been quite patient with her.)
OP - please do not tell your wife that you feel ripped off, or that you married her for sex. (I don't believe that you really feel that way, since you've obviously been quite patient with her.)
A
Almost made that mistake too! First, I have read your post and I know you need to pay attention to yourself. You are not studying God word. I can only work on my self with God's help, just remember that you can't change your partner. Ask God to help with her. Practice it with actions. The movie "Fireproof" will get you started. I speak the truth when I say this is so important. You are walking blindly and I have been there. Ask God to help you understand his word and his will. Solomon asked for wisdom and understanding and God gave him much, much more!!! It's easy to walk away, but hard to do the work that it takes. Check out the show Marriage Today, Joyce Meyers and Study even if you don't want to! NEVER LEAVE YOUR PARTNER BEHIND, God Bless You and Your Family!
You shouldn't throw the R word around. If someone has sex with their spouse because they feel guilty not doing it, that isn't rape.
Of course if you talk about something like this, you start off gently and discuss it. My guess is a man whose had sex 3 times in 8 months has done this. At some point, he's going to have to be upset with her about being a poor wife in this aspect of their relationship-- assuming she's just being lazy. If she was abused as a child, that would have to be handled differently.
In real life, after a confrontation, the entire marriage doesn't have to be tense and full of pressure, especially if she repents after she is confronted about it.
If you came home from work and the house was a wreck and your spouse, who was supposed to be watching the 2-year-old had been watching TV and playing video games, and hadn't fed the child or changed a diaper in 12 hours, you'd probably have a serious conversation about taking parental duties correctly. You'd point out to your partner that it is not pleasing to God to be such a poor parents. Marriage has some duties attached to it, too. Sometimes confrontation is necessary, and ignoring--or tiptoeing around the problem-- can be very unhealthy.
But we are working with some really incomplete information here. There is probably a lot more to the situation than what we have read.
Of course if you talk about something like this, you start off gently and discuss it. My guess is a man whose had sex 3 times in 8 months has done this. At some point, he's going to have to be upset with her about being a poor wife in this aspect of their relationship-- assuming she's just being lazy. If she was abused as a child, that would have to be handled differently.
In real life, after a confrontation, the entire marriage doesn't have to be tense and full of pressure, especially if she repents after she is confronted about it.
If you came home from work and the house was a wreck and your spouse, who was supposed to be watching the 2-year-old had been watching TV and playing video games, and hadn't fed the child or changed a diaper in 12 hours, you'd probably have a serious conversation about taking parental duties correctly. You'd point out to your partner that it is not pleasing to God to be such a poor parents. Marriage has some duties attached to it, too. Sometimes confrontation is necessary, and ignoring--or tiptoeing around the problem-- can be very unhealthy.
But we are working with some really incomplete information here. There is probably a lot more to the situation than what we have read.
I am dead serious when I use that word. And if you are not female and have never been crying in the bathroom after a sexual encounter with the one who vowed to cherish you, then you really have no frame of reference.
Coercion
Coercion is the use of emotional manipulation to persuade someone to something they may not want to do – like being sexual or performing certain sexual acts. Examples of some coercive statements include: “If you love me you would have sex with me .”, “If you don't have sex with me I will find someone who will.”, and “I'm not sure I can be with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me.” Coercive statements are often part of many campus acquaintance rapes. Being coerced into having sex or performing sexual acts is not consenting to having sex and is considered rape/sexual assault.
(Dean of Students Office | Clark University)
Coercion
Coercion is the use of emotional manipulation to persuade someone to something they may not want to do – like being sexual or performing certain sexual acts. Examples of some coercive statements include: “If you love me you would have sex with me .”, “If you don't have sex with me I will find someone who will.”, and “I'm not sure I can be with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me.” Coercive statements are often part of many campus acquaintance rapes. Being coerced into having sex or performing sexual acts is not consenting to having sex and is considered rape/sexual assault.
(Dean of Students Office | Clark University)
One of the problems with modern sexual ethics is that they often operate from the perspective that fornication is the norm. I agree that a man trying to persuade a woman to fornicate using those words is in the wrong. Still it's not rape if there is no violence or threat of violence, even if there is manipulation. In the old days, they could both be prosecuted for fornication in some jurisdictions if the man persuaded the woman. If he offered her marriage, she might have been able to sue for seduction. But such laws are no longer enforced.
I wonder if our society continues to unravel in it's sexual morality if men will be held legally liable for rape for not having explicit verbal permission to have sex with their wives, or else having a signed form each time in triplicate with carbon copies. The standards and morality of fornicators are being applied to the marriage bed. And of course rape accusations would only go one way. Some government agencies don't recognize women forcing themselves on men as 'rape'. Men wouldn't report it. They would be laughed at. Maybe it's less common, but there are marriages where the men deprive their wives, and the wives trying to persuade their husbands to do what is right could be labeled as 'coercion'.
We shouldn't get our ideas of sexual morality from the heathen, and university campus policies are particularly bad sources of sexual morality.
Btw, Threatening adultery in marriage is a bad thing, too. Neither is threatening divorce.
If were are talking about a husband or wife who is sexually defrauded by the other spouse saying, "If you loved me, you would have sex with me", I don't agree that that is 'coercion.' That may be a valid point. It's probably not something I've ever said to my wife. It's not manipulation to persuade one's spouse to do right, either. Manipulation is trying to deviously persuade or trick someone into doing something, usually something harmful for the other party. Directly confronting a spouse who is not fulling his/her sexual duties in a straightforward manner is not manipulation. Persuading someone not to sin is not immoral either. I am talking about normal healthy sex between spouses, not something bizzaar or harmful.
I wonder if our society continues to unravel in it's sexual morality if men will be held legally liable for rape for not having explicit verbal permission to have sex with their wives, or else having a signed form each time in triplicate with carbon copies. The standards and morality of fornicators are being applied to the marriage bed. And of course rape accusations would only go one way. Some government agencies don't recognize women forcing themselves on men as 'rape'. Men wouldn't report it. They would be laughed at. Maybe it's less common, but there are marriages where the men deprive their wives, and the wives trying to persuade their husbands to do what is right could be labeled as 'coercion'.
We shouldn't get our ideas of sexual morality from the heathen, and university campus policies are particularly bad sources of sexual morality.
Btw, Threatening adultery in marriage is a bad thing, too. Neither is threatening divorce.
If were are talking about a husband or wife who is sexually defrauded by the other spouse saying, "If you loved me, you would have sex with me", I don't agree that that is 'coercion.' That may be a valid point. It's probably not something I've ever said to my wife. It's not manipulation to persuade one's spouse to do right, either. Manipulation is trying to deviously persuade or trick someone into doing something, usually something harmful for the other party. Directly confronting a spouse who is not fulling his/her sexual duties in a straightforward manner is not manipulation. Persuading someone not to sin is not immoral either. I am talking about normal healthy sex between spouses, not something bizzaar or harmful.
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How can you not tell the difference between sexual abuse and a loving, passionate sex life? Do you really think any woman is is going to be in the mood if you approach her with the demand for "marital duties"? A woman (or man) should be giving enthusiastic consent for sex, which is responding with equal energy. No one should feel backed into a corner or pressured. That's not making love, it's treating your spouse worse than a prostitute who at least gets a choice in the matter.
I'm not talking about getting his wife in the mood for sex. I'm talking about a serious conversation about problems in the marriage with a long-term focus, not some kind of romantic conversation to 'warm her up' for the moment. If the problem is she isn't putting forth the effort to be a good wife in this area, then he points it out. They can discuss it, pray about, and/or he could say it and leave her to think about it and do some self-reflection. I may not result in passion immediately, but it could be a step in the right direction.
And putting emotional pressure on your spouse to have sex may not be the best way to go about it, but it's not rape. It happens all the time. Both genders do it. Calling everything 'rape' diminishes the problem of real rape. If you start to call any old thing rape, before long, rape is considered to be no big deal. If a woman says to her husband, "If you loved me, you would sleep with me" do you really want to lock her up and throw her into the slammer for 20 years? Or is it just if a husband says that?
And putting emotional pressure on your spouse to have sex may not be the best way to go about it, but it's not rape. It happens all the time. Both genders do it. Calling everything 'rape' diminishes the problem of real rape. If you start to call any old thing rape, before long, rape is considered to be no big deal. If a woman says to her husband, "If you loved me, you would sleep with me" do you really want to lock her up and throw her into the slammer for 20 years? Or is it just if a husband says that?
There is a difference between having a calm discussion that's full of grace, and being controlling. They can even be almost the same words but said with a different delivery, making a huge difference. I think in practice, you and I are not quite as diametrically opposed.
You use harsh words but probably picture a conversation that is factual. Am I right? I work with a lot of abused women and know that these same words can be used as weapons. Words are like knives: they are all about context. They can be used in food preparation or murder. I think we are using the same words, but looking at entirely different pictures.
You use harsh words but probably picture a conversation that is factual. Am I right? I work with a lot of abused women and know that these same words can be used as weapons. Words are like knives: they are all about context. They can be used in food preparation or murder. I think we are using the same words, but looking at entirely different pictures.
G
every morning on my way to work I listen to Focus On the Family radio station and I was listening to Pastor Timothy Keller he talks about Marriage and family basically well I learned something and I just wanted to share it. he said and I quote "The problem with marriages these days is we are overly sugar coating marriage that is all sweet and wonderful, yes it is all that but this generations needs to know that marriage is hard, hard in a way that there are 2 different personality getting adjusted to each other yes there will be fights and disagreements but the hard part of it is to find a SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM. most people just walk out and do no want to find solutions to the problems and they are thinking that walking away will solve the issue WRONG!!! when you find a solution and fix the issue at hand it bring you closer to your Husband/Wife. Do not think that because you are fighting or disagreeing means that you are not meant to be together and you guys have made a mistake. THAT IS WHAT THE DEVIL WANTS YOU TO THINK SO HE CAN DESTROY YOUR FAMILY!!."
Go back to where it all started, what made you fall in love with her, check what made her fall in love with you and find those first love. I tell you if you don't have kids yet those are the best moments to get to know each other because when the kids come its whole lot a different ball game. she will be frustrated and angry and same will go for you we are all human but if y all already went through it before and asked God for his guidance it will be easy to go through it all. HOPE I MADE SENSE, I am praying for you guys.
Go back to where it all started, what made you fall in love with her, check what made her fall in love with you and find those first love. I tell you if you don't have kids yet those are the best moments to get to know each other because when the kids come its whole lot a different ball game. she will be frustrated and angry and same will go for you we are all human but if y all already went through it before and asked God for his guidance it will be easy to go through it all. HOPE I MADE SENSE, I am praying for you guys.
G
I am 25yrs old married now with 2kids I got married young just like your wife and I tell you we had moments when he yelled and I screamed but one thing we understood together was that no matter what happens with both of us we in it for the long haul. and 1 theory my husband made me understand is we never fight in front of anyone, we argue behind close doors and whatever we said to eachother there stays there we dont have a choice when we come out of that closed door we put on a happy face. ofcourse that was the hardest thing for me to do. but with time I got used to it, we had specific people we went to when we were all out of solution ideas but other than that...
For some reason your description of your wife's actions remind me of myself when I first married my husband. Only reverse the roles there...My husband lost his job a month after we married and went 2+ years without working at all. It was him that liked to spend money we didn't have, I was the saver. Fast forward, my husband has ultimately made the decision that you've been contemplating, only we've been married a little over 3 years with a 2yr old child, but forget my situation.
I write that just to say if you are both willing to work through your issues and fight for your marriage you should be fine. My husband and I did see a Christian counselor who was a pastor and completely associated with any church we attend. The only problem with going to counseling that your wife may also have an issue with is the fact that my husband used the concerns i expressed during these sessions against me once we got home from counseling. Be sure to be cautious of that...it could explain the unwillingness to truly speak her mind. If I had known my words would be used against me then I would not have spoken so openly, but I thought my husband wanted to work on the marriage. I haven't given up even after all this, and you shouldn't give up either. You truly need to examine yourself, your walk with God and then tune into the needs of your wife. You may be surprised at what you hear and find out.
God bless!
I write that just to say if you are both willing to work through your issues and fight for your marriage you should be fine. My husband and I did see a Christian counselor who was a pastor and completely associated with any church we attend. The only problem with going to counseling that your wife may also have an issue with is the fact that my husband used the concerns i expressed during these sessions against me once we got home from counseling. Be sure to be cautious of that...it could explain the unwillingness to truly speak her mind. If I had known my words would be used against me then I would not have spoken so openly, but I thought my husband wanted to work on the marriage. I haven't given up even after all this, and you shouldn't give up either. You truly need to examine yourself, your walk with God and then tune into the needs of your wife. You may be surprised at what you hear and find out.
God bless!
Don't give up! And do not fantasize about other women....Satan is playing with your mind...you must refuse these thoughts.
I hope you both do find a marriage counselor, preferably Christian...an objective third person (who doesn't know you personally) can really help open up the communication lines. What you are experiencing is what most marriages experience ...probably all...and that's the 'end of the honeymoon'. Before I get in big trouble for saying that, this is what I mean...you're now into learning the tricky thing of two people living as one; learning to sacrifice for the other; realizing that you each have flaws and with love can overlook 'harmless' defects; understanding that the male and female mind work differently....husband and wives have many misunderstandings that go unresolved if not dealt with.
This is an opportunity to grow even closer to Christ. Don't look at it as an obstacle to your faith but as a growing opportunity. As you seek to know Him better, and your wife better, and also what is going on inside your own head, the Holy Spirit will grant you wisdom, understanding, and discernment to what the REAL battle is....which is Satan trying to destroy your marriage.
Marriage is meant to be our true testing ground as Christians. The intimacy between husband and wife is used as a parallel between the bride ( us...the church) and the bridegroom (Christ). There is bound to be conflict; the big question is how are we going to respond to it?
Learn to 'fight fair'...I think Focus on the Family has resources that will help you with this. Some people object to that word 'fighting'....but it's arguing of some kind and it needs to be confronted. Pretending like it isn't there just makes it simmer under the surface and then, boom, it comes out in awful ways.
It may help to find a mature Christian couple who you can talk to who will keep your talks confidential. Believe me, we all go through this in some form or another.
Praying for you both that the Holy Spirit will fill you with His love and encouragement and bless you both for seeking Him together and that He will help you both to discern what is really going on.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13:
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I hope you both do find a marriage counselor, preferably Christian...an objective third person (who doesn't know you personally) can really help open up the communication lines. What you are experiencing is what most marriages experience ...probably all...and that's the 'end of the honeymoon'. Before I get in big trouble for saying that, this is what I mean...you're now into learning the tricky thing of two people living as one; learning to sacrifice for the other; realizing that you each have flaws and with love can overlook 'harmless' defects; understanding that the male and female mind work differently....husband and wives have many misunderstandings that go unresolved if not dealt with.
This is an opportunity to grow even closer to Christ. Don't look at it as an obstacle to your faith but as a growing opportunity. As you seek to know Him better, and your wife better, and also what is going on inside your own head, the Holy Spirit will grant you wisdom, understanding, and discernment to what the REAL battle is....which is Satan trying to destroy your marriage.
Marriage is meant to be our true testing ground as Christians. The intimacy between husband and wife is used as a parallel between the bride ( us...the church) and the bridegroom (Christ). There is bound to be conflict; the big question is how are we going to respond to it?
Learn to 'fight fair'...I think Focus on the Family has resources that will help you with this. Some people object to that word 'fighting'....but it's arguing of some kind and it needs to be confronted. Pretending like it isn't there just makes it simmer under the surface and then, boom, it comes out in awful ways.
It may help to find a mature Christian couple who you can talk to who will keep your talks confidential. Believe me, we all go through this in some form or another.
Praying for you both that the Holy Spirit will fill you with His love and encouragement and bless you both for seeking Him together and that He will help you both to discern what is really going on.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13:
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
A-Ray, I don't believe in women being overseers of the church, so that will show through in my post. If I were you, and one of my wife's problems was lack of submission toward her husband or respect, I don't think I would go to a woman pastor for counseling. My preference would be for a man, and one that took both the husband and the wife's role seriously. It's easy to find pastors in the western world who take the man's role seriously. In theory, at least, if you tell a group of men that they are to love their wives as Christ loved the church, they aren't going to argue with that. But if you tell women to submit to their husbands in a lot of churches, watch out. It's not popular these days, but it's still in the Bible. There are those who have published books claiming that the Greek words don't mean what they meant to all the commentators who actually read Greek in the early centuries of Christianity. So 'submission' gets redefined without justification, and some commentators want to hang on to certain dennotations and connations of 'kephale'-- head, and not the other meanings of the word. Before going to a pastor for marriage counseling if I were you, I'd make sure he took these things seriously. I'd also want a counselor who takes I Corinthians 7 seriously, including the part about not defrauding one another.
People reacted negatively when you used the word 'control' in regard to your wife. Jesus taught against lording over others like the Gentiles did, but that doesn't mean He rejected all leadership. There is a heritage of godly leadership that includes the leadership of Moses, David, Ezra, and Nehemiah. The husband is the head of the wife and is to lead his family. My guess is your more likely to find a pastor who believes this way in a church where the pastor isn't a woman.
Let's say your wife is not submissive and respectful and won't sleep with you, and you go to a Feminist counselor who blames everything on the man, who doesn't believe wives should be submissive to husbands, who calls it 'rape' if you try to persuade your wife to consentually have sex with you. (You've seen the posts in this forum.) One counseling session with an 'expert' who feeds your wife these ideas could cause more damage. Be careful, even with Christian counseling experts or pastors. Find out what the counselor's philosophy of marriage is, first. I wouldn't go for counseling to someone who had been divorced either. Find someone whose experience is making things work, not someone whose experience is how to survive a divorce.
People reacted negatively when you used the word 'control' in regard to your wife. Jesus taught against lording over others like the Gentiles did, but that doesn't mean He rejected all leadership. There is a heritage of godly leadership that includes the leadership of Moses, David, Ezra, and Nehemiah. The husband is the head of the wife and is to lead his family. My guess is your more likely to find a pastor who believes this way in a church where the pastor isn't a woman.
Let's say your wife is not submissive and respectful and won't sleep with you, and you go to a Feminist counselor who blames everything on the man, who doesn't believe wives should be submissive to husbands, who calls it 'rape' if you try to persuade your wife to consentually have sex with you. (You've seen the posts in this forum.) One counseling session with an 'expert' who feeds your wife these ideas could cause more damage. Be careful, even with Christian counseling experts or pastors. Find out what the counselor's philosophy of marriage is, first. I wouldn't go for counseling to someone who had been divorced either. Find someone whose experience is making things work, not someone whose experience is how to survive a divorce.