I think children are part of marriage, if someone isn't willing to have children then they are not thinking biblically. Being infertile is one thing, but disagreeing with the command to be frutiful and multiply is out of place. The command is clear to be fruitful and multiply. Try, pray, try, pray...I don't want children but God says to try so I will be obedient to that. I need to conform my desires to God's desires. Too many excuse makers these days.
questian for those who want children
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No one is saying to make wife and children the top priority in this life for Christians. I have never even heard of this and I am 58. I think some people miscontrue other's motives for whatever reason. Getting married and having children is God's revealed will for most people unless he gives them the gift of singleness and they will be living a life like Paul. Wife and children are the norm and those children need to be taught God's ways all the time. That is not wasted time, that is commanded time. So is loving your wife. Sounds like a fulfilling life to me.
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Well....all I can say is that IMO Christian have zero obligations to this present age.
Not so for Israel though....
God clearly commanded them to marry and have families during the diapsora.
Jer 29
"Build houses and dwell in them; plant gardens and eat their fruit. Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters—that you may be increased there, and not diminished."
Then they blew it yet again, turned legalistic, failed to discern the time of the advent of their Messiah.....and were annihilated in 70AD.
Quite the bummer and horrific tragedy. And you know what? Not God's fault. Not even a little bit. They had every opportunity to receive Jesus. A grim warning to those of this age.
Anyhoo....too horrific and bloody and heart wrenching for me. I pass.
Not so for Israel though....
God clearly commanded them to marry and have families during the diapsora.
Jer 29
"Build houses and dwell in them; plant gardens and eat their fruit. Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters—that you may be increased there, and not diminished."
Then they blew it yet again, turned legalistic, failed to discern the time of the advent of their Messiah.....and were annihilated in 70AD.
Quite the bummer and horrific tragedy. And you know what? Not God's fault. Not even a little bit. They had every opportunity to receive Jesus. A grim warning to those of this age.
Anyhoo....too horrific and bloody and heart wrenching for me. I pass.
Wouldn't that be because the assumption used to be that the husband would be providing for the wife?
Now that is no longer necessarily true
Now that is no longer necessarily true
Nope. Each child needs 100K cash in hand for a college education nowadays. But instead of cash or assets, we have million dollar mortgages and $800 car payments X 2.
Financially most families are wreckage.
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They are really commanded to avoid lusts. Marriage happens to be the means that works, and most people struggle with it so it's better for most to marry. It's in the verses you cited:
A slap in the face to Christian women who can't have children, applied literally that would imply that they can't be saved or that they are not equal spiritually through Christ. Even the slave got spiritually equal in Christ with the free, but that woman is still less.
I'd say you're taking this out of context, because the previous verse refers to Eve, who was called the mother of all living. Through motherhood the promised seed that crushed the snake came. Eve was the weaker link, but in weakness also was exalted with the power of life, which is all God's plan. He is also speaking of a contemporary lifestyle that was the only viable honorable path for Christian woman in first century AD, but this verse is loaded with so much more depth, you cannot possibly reduce this to mean a simplistic "every woman must have children at all times".
This verse describes Christian female lifestyle from a society of 2000 years ago. It isn't hard to see I think, that back then being married young and busy with your family was the only way for a woman to live and be respectable in society. As opposed to being an indolent busybody, or whoring around. Or being associated with such, simply by being a post-pubescent female, single, and mingling with people. Which was enough to give occasion for evil gossip against Christians and Christ (adversary speaking reproachfully).
The substance or spirit of this verse is, for women to live honorably. Men had more options, they could get into missionary work like Paul, traveling alone was way too dangerous for a woman. But nowadays, there are many honorable options for Christian single, divorced and widowed women who choose to stay single. Women can be single servants of God involved in charitable work.
As for these chaste unmarried, maybe divorced by an adulterous spouse, or widowed women, who are engaged in God's ministry and live honorable lives - what is there to be spoken of reproachfully about them?
I didn't see anyone here command abstaining from marriage. Marriage is God intended for a lot of people. A person isn't more godly if they do not marry, they just have more free time and resources (not just money, I am also talking about energy, focus etc.) to allocate for God's service.
A slap in the face to Christian women who can't have children, applied literally that would imply that they can't be saved or that they are not equal spiritually through Christ. Even the slave got spiritually equal in Christ with the free, but that woman is still less.
I'd say you're taking this out of context, because the previous verse refers to Eve, who was called the mother of all living. Through motherhood the promised seed that crushed the snake came. Eve was the weaker link, but in weakness also was exalted with the power of life, which is all God's plan. He is also speaking of a contemporary lifestyle that was the only viable honorable path for Christian woman in first century AD, but this verse is loaded with so much more depth, you cannot possibly reduce this to mean a simplistic "every woman must have children at all times".
This verse describes Christian female lifestyle from a society of 2000 years ago. It isn't hard to see I think, that back then being married young and busy with your family was the only way for a woman to live and be respectable in society. As opposed to being an indolent busybody, or whoring around. Or being associated with such, simply by being a post-pubescent female, single, and mingling with people. Which was enough to give occasion for evil gossip against Christians and Christ (adversary speaking reproachfully).
The substance or spirit of this verse is, for women to live honorably. Men had more options, they could get into missionary work like Paul, traveling alone was way too dangerous for a woman. But nowadays, there are many honorable options for Christian single, divorced and widowed women who choose to stay single. Women can be single servants of God involved in charitable work.
As for these chaste unmarried, maybe divorced by an adulterous spouse, or widowed women, who are engaged in God's ministry and live honorable lives - what is there to be spoken of reproachfully about them?
I didn't see anyone here command abstaining from marriage. Marriage is God intended for a lot of people. A person isn't more godly if they do not marry, they just have more free time and resources (not just money, I am also talking about energy, focus etc.) to allocate for God's service.
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They are really commanded to avoid lusts. Marriage happens to be the means that works, and most people struggle with it so it's better for most to marry. It's in the verses you cited:
A slap in the face to Christian women who can't have children, applied literally that would imply that they can't be saved or that they are not equal spiritually through Christ. Even the slave got spiritually equal in Christ with the free, but that woman is still less.
I'd say you're taking this out of context, because the previous verse refers to Eve, who was called the mother of all living. Through motherhood the promised seed that crushed the snake came. Eve was the weaker link, but in weakness also was exalted with the power of life, which is all God's plan. He is also speaking of a contemporary lifestyle that was the only viable honorable path for Christian woman in first century AD, but this verse is loaded with so much more depth, you cannot possibly reduce this to mean a simplistic "every woman must have children at all times".
This verse describes Christian female lifestyle from a society of 2000 years ago. It isn't hard to see I think, that back then being married young and busy with your family was the only way for a woman to live and be respectable in society. As opposed to being an indolent busybody, or whoring around. Or being associated with such, simply by being a post-pubescent female, single, and mingling with people. Which was enough to give occasion for evil gossip against Christians and Christ (adversary speaking reproachfully).
The substance or spirit of this verse is, for women to live honorably. Men had more options, they could get into missionary work like Paul, traveling alone was way too dangerous for a woman. But nowadays, there are many honorable options for Christian single, divorced and widowed women who choose to stay single. Women can be single servants of God involved in charitable work.
As for these chaste unmarried, maybe divorced by an adulterous spouse, or widowed women, who are engaged in God's ministry and live honorable lives - what is there to be spoken of reproachfully about them?
I didn't see anyone here command abstaining from marriage. Marriage is God intended for a lot of people. A person isn't more godly if they do not marry, they just have more free time and resources (not just money, I am also talking about energy, focus etc.) to allocate for God's service.
A slap in the face to Christian women who can't have children, applied literally that would imply that they can't be saved or that they are not equal spiritually through Christ. Even the slave got spiritually equal in Christ with the free, but that woman is still less.
I'd say you're taking this out of context, because the previous verse refers to Eve, who was called the mother of all living. Through motherhood the promised seed that crushed the snake came. Eve was the weaker link, but in weakness also was exalted with the power of life, which is all God's plan. He is also speaking of a contemporary lifestyle that was the only viable honorable path for Christian woman in first century AD, but this verse is loaded with so much more depth, you cannot possibly reduce this to mean a simplistic "every woman must have children at all times".
This verse describes Christian female lifestyle from a society of 2000 years ago. It isn't hard to see I think, that back then being married young and busy with your family was the only way for a woman to live and be respectable in society. As opposed to being an indolent busybody, or whoring around. Or being associated with such, simply by being a post-pubescent female, single, and mingling with people. Which was enough to give occasion for evil gossip against Christians and Christ (adversary speaking reproachfully).
The substance or spirit of this verse is, for women to live honorably. Men had more options, they could get into missionary work like Paul, traveling alone was way too dangerous for a woman. But nowadays, there are many honorable options for Christian single, divorced and widowed women who choose to stay single. Women can be single servants of God involved in charitable work.
As for these chaste unmarried, maybe divorced by an adulterous spouse, or widowed women, who are engaged in God's ministry and live honorable lives - what is there to be spoken of reproachfully about them?
I didn't see anyone here command abstaining from marriage. Marriage is God intended for a lot of people. A person isn't more godly if they do not marry, they just have more free time and resources (not just money, I am also talking about energy, focus etc.) to allocate for God's service.
1 Tim 2:15 needs careful study and proper exegesis. It can easy be misconstrued.
If you imply from Timothy that every woman is to be multiplying in addition to Christian life in order to be saved, you can't scramble yourself out of the mess when it comes to women who cannot bear children or come to Christ past menopause. Marriage exists because it reflects the higher marriage or covenant of God and mankind. This is why we are called the Bride and Jesus is called Bridegroom. As it reflects a good thing, marriage will of course be good, male and female is entwined throughout the whole creation and through their becoming one life is made. And this is good. But covenant with God presides over the earthly covenant, although earthly covenant of man and woman is good.
Not sure why you view this as some kind of humanistic perspective. All I am saying is that, while marriage and children are good in themselves, physical creation mirrors, and exists because of, heavenly things from above. It is supposed to point us to God. When we find God, we do not have to engage with types and shadows to be saved. Even though they may be good.
Not sure why you view this as some kind of humanistic perspective. All I am saying is that, while marriage and children are good in themselves, physical creation mirrors, and exists because of, heavenly things from above. It is supposed to point us to God. When we find God, we do not have to engage with types and shadows to be saved. Even though they may be good.
I suggest you look at things from the Christian perspective. Marriage for the Christian is no longer even necessary. We are in fact already seated in the heavenlies, we just haven't quite arrived there yet.
Matt 22:30
In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.
“Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Col. 3:1–4).
Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace inHis kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Paul then goes on with discourses about behavior conduct and order of the Church and its members, and there is no doubt that there is room for marriages and children in all of this.
But this business about required and mandated marriage and children, being some kind of necessary requirement and ingredient for the for the fullness of our righteousness or salvation is total rubbish. In fact I think it is a heresy. I think married or unmarried belongs right along side male or female bond or free Jew or Greek. I think we are complete in Christ. Everything else is baggage. And everyone here knows that you can't bring any of your baggage to heaven. Absolutely none of it.
For me I am simply waiting for Jesus. My ear is bent to His call. I am truly waiting for the trumpet of assembly to be sounded. I just want out of here, and there's nothing here that I really want or need. Things of this world and this present age, which are doomed to pass away in a very short time, just do not hold my attention enough to commit to them. They seem vain irrelevant and a waste of time and resources. This includes wives children homes mortgages careers vacations golf and everything else.
Matt 22:30
In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.
“Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Col. 3:1–4).
Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace inHis kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Paul then goes on with discourses about behavior conduct and order of the Church and its members, and there is no doubt that there is room for marriages and children in all of this.
But this business about required and mandated marriage and children, being some kind of necessary requirement and ingredient for the for the fullness of our righteousness or salvation is total rubbish. In fact I think it is a heresy. I think married or unmarried belongs right along side male or female bond or free Jew or Greek. I think we are complete in Christ. Everything else is baggage. And everyone here knows that you can't bring any of your baggage to heaven. Absolutely none of it.
For me I am simply waiting for Jesus. My ear is bent to His call. I am truly waiting for the trumpet of assembly to be sounded. I just want out of here, and there's nothing here that I really want or need. Things of this world and this present age, which are doomed to pass away in a very short time, just do not hold my attention enough to commit to them. They seem vain irrelevant and a waste of time and resources. This includes wives children homes mortgages careers vacations golf and everything else.
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I feel like this about having a house. We're supposed to buy a lot and build a house in the following years.
As much as we want it, in fact need it because we rent right now, at the same time we are aware that it is all a vexation of spirit, you're investing a lot of toiling under the sun into something you can't keep and something that is passing away.
Yet it is also a lot of man, given to us, to be enjoyed including marriage. Man is wired to alter his environment, build and create and improve.
There's no condemnation either way in Christ.
As much as we want it, in fact need it because we rent right now, at the same time we are aware that it is all a vexation of spirit, you're investing a lot of toiling under the sun into something you can't keep and something that is passing away.
Yet it is also a lot of man, given to us, to be enjoyed including marriage. Man is wired to alter his environment, build and create and improve.
There's no condemnation either way in Christ.
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Children nowadays are in fact wards of the state, Indeed the government has a first perfected lien on all children. They are the owners we are merely the stewards. Furthermore I would like to have someone tell me how it is that children can inherit enormous government debt. Is absolutely amoral and it legal for children to inherit the debt of their parents, yet the next generation will never be able to pay the government debt imposed upon them against their will.
At this stage of civilization it's all about debt and banks. And it is a Ponzi scheme and scam. What a joke and the joke is on us.
At this stage of civilization it's all about debt and banks. And it is a Ponzi scheme and scam. What a joke and the joke is on us.
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