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I was talking about oral sex in the context of a marriage, as noted in one of my earlier posts:
Many people do participate in it while lusting, that's true...but no one except God can honestly say they know the opposite isn't possible.
In terms of intercourse, oral sex, and other activities involving a partner, I agree with you. None of those things are in dispute here.
I believe that if its restricted to marriage, and both the husband and wife are OK with it, then oral sex shouldn't be a problem. I never stated any kind of belief that sexual activity between two people outside of marriage was OK - I know its not. the subject I was addressing was masturbation for single people as a form of release without lust, and then oral sex was brought into the discussion as well.
OK, so do you think its okay for a 35-year-old adult to sexually use a 10-year-old child, if the kid is talked into it? I don't think that's OK at all. Jesus was very clear about how God views the mistreatment of children, and molestation or other abusive sexual contact would definitely fall within that boundary.
You're assuming that masturbation and oral sex are inherently perverse in and of themselves, a notion which is not backed up by the text of Scripture. In fact, some Biblical scholars have said that certain verses in the Song of Solomon could refer to oral sex between the king and his bride. And by the way, for those who think that book is solely about Christ's love for the church, how do you explain stuff like this...
"This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. I said, `I will go up to the palm tree; I will take hold of the boughs thereof.' Now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples." ~Song of Solomon 7:7-8~
I strongly doubt that anyone could reasonably see verses like this as an allegory.
Many people do participate in it while lusting, that's true...but no one except God can honestly say they know the opposite isn't possible.
In terms of intercourse, oral sex, and other activities involving a partner, I agree with you. None of those things are in dispute here.
I believe that if its restricted to marriage, and both the husband and wife are OK with it, then oral sex shouldn't be a problem. I never stated any kind of belief that sexual activity between two people outside of marriage was OK - I know its not. the subject I was addressing was masturbation for single people as a form of release without lust, and then oral sex was brought into the discussion as well.
OK, so do you think its okay for a 35-year-old adult to sexually use a 10-year-old child, if the kid is talked into it? I don't think that's OK at all. Jesus was very clear about how God views the mistreatment of children, and molestation or other abusive sexual contact would definitely fall within that boundary.
You're assuming that masturbation and oral sex are inherently perverse in and of themselves, a notion which is not backed up by the text of Scripture. In fact, some Biblical scholars have said that certain verses in the Song of Solomon could refer to oral sex between the king and his bride. And by the way, for those who think that book is solely about Christ's love for the church, how do you explain stuff like this...
"This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. I said, `I will go up to the palm tree; I will take hold of the boughs thereof.' Now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples." ~Song of Solomon 7:7-8~
I strongly doubt that anyone could reasonably see verses like this as an allegory.
hmmm, this is the addiction i'm trying to get over. and for me, its impossible to do that without lusting. (please pray for me 
)
)
In my opinion, separating lust and masturbation is possible, but it's not easy. It takes a great deal of committment, especially to God. It also takes time, because once a person's mind is exposed to lustful images, it adjusts to that, and develops a "pattern of response" if you will. In order to accomplish this, you need to ask yourself two questions: (1) Why do I want to separate lust and masturbation?; and (2) how much am I willing to sacrifice (mentally, emotionally, and spiritually) to bring about that result?
I'll be honest with you: I first got hooked on this activity when I was about 14 years old, and from the ages of 16 to 26 I battled a porn addiction. I spent many, many days over the last year of it or so, trying like crazy to figure out why I kept getting trapped so easily...and the answer was that I was afraid to let go of the lust. You see, I had grown up extremely sheltered throughout my life, rarely having any long-term friends to speak of. Emotionally, I was a recluse, and when puberty hit I felt all the worse. Suddenly, all these crazy emotions and desires were racing through my mind and body, and I didn't know what to do with them. I had no positive male role models, and all the kids at school just made fun of me, so I internalized my sex drive, thinking no one could possibly love me if they knew what I was thinking.
At the beginning, my addiction started with "erotic thrillers" on late-night cable. At the time, it seemed like those films created a "world" in my mind where I could release all these thoughts, without feeling rejected for them...but it was an illusion, and as my thoughts became more explicit the addiction escalated. I wound up "graduating" to written erotica, then Playboy, then online porn. Lust is like any other addiction; it feeds on fuel. For me, one of the keys to conquering it was letting go of the "false reality" created by my fantasies, and the sense of security they provided. I had to admit to myself, "All this condemnation, shame, and guilt isn't worth the thrill anymore." If you keep books, videos, or images around you which foster lustful responses, conquering that addiction is next to impossible. You need to get to a point where you honestly don't want the lust anymore. In my case, I threw out my Playboy collection, deleted all the porn videos off my computer, and trashed all the erotic stuff I'd written down. However, that alone won't set you free - only the love of Jesus can do that. Is it easy? NO!!! Your flesh will claw at you night and day, desperate to regain what you've given up. I've been porn-free almost 4 years now, and I still battle lustful thoughts almost every day. I keep surrendering them to God, and I keep repeating Bible verses to myself, reminding me that I'm loved by God, and that I don't have to go through this alone.
Now, how does all this relate to the practice of masturbation? Well, as your desire to engage in willful lust gets lower, you may find it easier to release the physical tension without giving in to your old patterns of thinking and feeling. People say, "even the little thoughts count", and to that I'd say they're both right and wrong. We can't choose which thoughts pop into our brains, even while masturbating...but we can choose whether or not they stay there. It takes effort and a desire to serve God more than yourself, but over time it becomes easier to 'kick" lustful thoughts out of your mind.
I can almost hear the cries now: "Heretic! Evildoer! Ungodly heathen!" To all of that, I respectfully say, "Shut up. Unless you've walked this path yourself, you're not the best person to be ordering people around." Lust is definitely sin, there's no argument about that...but not all sexual thoughts are lustful. What i mean is this: to fantasize about having any kind of sexual contact with a person you're not married to is lust, and therefore sinful. However, what about focusing on your own body, or the God who gave you a sex drive to begin with? It's not easy - I repeat, NOT EASY - but I do believe its possible. God says in the Bible that He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, and that He will provide a way of escape. So, what if masturbation, in and of itself, isn't an activity to be feared or hated, but to be used wisely as a "preventive measure" for those who are not married?
I'll be honest with you: I first got hooked on this activity when I was about 14 years old, and from the ages of 16 to 26 I battled a porn addiction. I spent many, many days over the last year of it or so, trying like crazy to figure out why I kept getting trapped so easily...and the answer was that I was afraid to let go of the lust. You see, I had grown up extremely sheltered throughout my life, rarely having any long-term friends to speak of. Emotionally, I was a recluse, and when puberty hit I felt all the worse. Suddenly, all these crazy emotions and desires were racing through my mind and body, and I didn't know what to do with them. I had no positive male role models, and all the kids at school just made fun of me, so I internalized my sex drive, thinking no one could possibly love me if they knew what I was thinking.
At the beginning, my addiction started with "erotic thrillers" on late-night cable. At the time, it seemed like those films created a "world" in my mind where I could release all these thoughts, without feeling rejected for them...but it was an illusion, and as my thoughts became more explicit the addiction escalated. I wound up "graduating" to written erotica, then Playboy, then online porn. Lust is like any other addiction; it feeds on fuel. For me, one of the keys to conquering it was letting go of the "false reality" created by my fantasies, and the sense of security they provided. I had to admit to myself, "All this condemnation, shame, and guilt isn't worth the thrill anymore." If you keep books, videos, or images around you which foster lustful responses, conquering that addiction is next to impossible. You need to get to a point where you honestly don't want the lust anymore. In my case, I threw out my Playboy collection, deleted all the porn videos off my computer, and trashed all the erotic stuff I'd written down. However, that alone won't set you free - only the love of Jesus can do that. Is it easy? NO!!! Your flesh will claw at you night and day, desperate to regain what you've given up. I've been porn-free almost 4 years now, and I still battle lustful thoughts almost every day. I keep surrendering them to God, and I keep repeating Bible verses to myself, reminding me that I'm loved by God, and that I don't have to go through this alone.
Now, how does all this relate to the practice of masturbation? Well, as your desire to engage in willful lust gets lower, you may find it easier to release the physical tension without giving in to your old patterns of thinking and feeling. People say, "even the little thoughts count", and to that I'd say they're both right and wrong. We can't choose which thoughts pop into our brains, even while masturbating...but we can choose whether or not they stay there. It takes effort and a desire to serve God more than yourself, but over time it becomes easier to 'kick" lustful thoughts out of your mind.
I can almost hear the cries now: "Heretic! Evildoer! Ungodly heathen!" To all of that, I respectfully say, "Shut up. Unless you've walked this path yourself, you're not the best person to be ordering people around." Lust is definitely sin, there's no argument about that...but not all sexual thoughts are lustful. What i mean is this: to fantasize about having any kind of sexual contact with a person you're not married to is lust, and therefore sinful. However, what about focusing on your own body, or the God who gave you a sex drive to begin with? It's not easy - I repeat, NOT EASY - but I do believe its possible. God says in the Bible that He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, and that He will provide a way of escape. So, what if masturbation, in and of itself, isn't an activity to be feared or hated, but to be used wisely as a "preventive measure" for those who are not married?
D
I think everyone twists the scriptures to say that masturbation is evil by using the lust argument. Thing is, lust is lust and masturbation is masturbation. You can certainly lust while masturbating, but it doesn't mean you can't masturbate without lusting. We're so programed into thinking all sex is bad we deny ourselves a normal bodily function. I really dont think Christ cares whether or not I please myself, privately, without hurting anyone or lusting.
S
I can almost hear the cries now: "Heretic! Evildoer! Ungodly heathen!" To all of that, I respectfully say, "Shut up.Unless you've walked this path yourself, you're not the best person to be ordering people around." Lust is definitely sin, there's no argument about that...but not all sexual thoughts are lustful. What i mean is this: to fantasize about having any kind of sexual contact with a person you're not married to is lust, and therefore sinful. However, what about focusing on your own body, or the God who gave you a sex drive to begin with? It's not easy - I repeat, NOT EASY - but I do believe its possible. God says in the Bible that He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, and that He will provide a way of escape. So, what if masturbation, in and of itself, isn't an activity to be feared or hated, but to be used wisely as a "preventive measure" for those who are not married?[/quote]
No friend, you're not a heretic, and whether you are an evildoer or not is known only by you. So you've been there, have you? You know what it is to fantasize. You know what it is to flip through the web pages of your computer to support a porn addiction. Let me share a little with you friend. I've known homosexuals, sexual offenders, porn addicts, molesters, some of whom have done serious prison time. I've taught, I've preached and I"ve studied God's word, but you have a theory do you?
You've convinced people on this site that you have bravely conquered a porn addiction, while what actually occured is you've reduced a porn addiction to a masturbatory addiction. You've skillfully avoided both God's word regarding perverseness, as well as clinical evidence proving the addictive nature of masturbation. I have to assume that this is either because you have not done the research or that you don't wish to do so.
So you are content in your theory? A theory which has not even been proven in your own life. You write about separating lust from masturbation, and yet not one word of your statement even remotely indicates that you have successfully done this yourself. Perhaps this is a goal of yours.
Let me tell you about the goals of some of the people I've met on this site and in real life.I've complimented individuals on this site for their courage in addressing and defeating both the masturbatory addiction as well as their porn addictions. Yes someone who has conquered both, may struggle every 4 to 5 months with serious temptations to return to old behaviors, but I applaud the efforts of those who try by the Grace of God, to stay free. No friend, I will not call you a heretic. A heretic is obvious.
No friend, you're not a heretic, and whether you are an evildoer or not is known only by you. So you've been there, have you? You know what it is to fantasize. You know what it is to flip through the web pages of your computer to support a porn addiction. Let me share a little with you friend. I've known homosexuals, sexual offenders, porn addicts, molesters, some of whom have done serious prison time. I've taught, I've preached and I"ve studied God's word, but you have a theory do you?
You've convinced people on this site that you have bravely conquered a porn addiction, while what actually occured is you've reduced a porn addiction to a masturbatory addiction. You've skillfully avoided both God's word regarding perverseness, as well as clinical evidence proving the addictive nature of masturbation. I have to assume that this is either because you have not done the research or that you don't wish to do so.
So you are content in your theory? A theory which has not even been proven in your own life. You write about separating lust from masturbation, and yet not one word of your statement even remotely indicates that you have successfully done this yourself. Perhaps this is a goal of yours.
Let me tell you about the goals of some of the people I've met on this site and in real life.I've complimented individuals on this site for their courage in addressing and defeating both the masturbatory addiction as well as their porn addictions. Yes someone who has conquered both, may struggle every 4 to 5 months with serious temptations to return to old behaviors, but I applaud the efforts of those who try by the Grace of God, to stay free. No friend, I will not call you a heretic. A heretic is obvious.
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My mother's ex-husband left her after 2 years of marriage, under the delusion that God had made him male by mistake. My ex-girlfriend was once in a lesbian relationship. I'm certainly no expert on homosexuality, but I'm not relying on just any old theory. My argument is based on both the actual text of the Bible and my own experiences. In addition, I didn't even mention homosexuality in my post, so why did you bring it up?
You don't know my heart, and I don't know yours...but this seems to me like more of an accusation than anything else. I wasted ten years of my life as a slave to lust, and God Himself saved me from it. I'm not perfect, but by his grace I continue to succeed. If you don't think masturbation can be successfully separated from lust, that's your opinion, and you're free to it...but don't even try to say I'm decieving myself or others. You work with homosexuals and prison inmates who have struggled with various lust issues; good, I'm actually pleased to hear that. But everyone's story is different, and we are not all at the same place. With all due respect, back off.
You don't know my heart, and I don't know yours...but this seems to me like more of an accusation than anything else. I wasted ten years of my life as a slave to lust, and God Himself saved me from it. I'm not perfect, but by his grace I continue to succeed. If you don't think masturbation can be successfully separated from lust, that's your opinion, and you're free to it...but don't even try to say I'm decieving myself or others. You work with homosexuals and prison inmates who have struggled with various lust issues; good, I'm actually pleased to hear that. But everyone's story is different, and we are not all at the same place. With all due respect, back off.
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That is a statement that's completely against Scripture. Human beings are not animals, and as such we are held to a higher standard than they are. God makes it very clear in both the Old and New Testaments that homosexuality is an abombination...it's that simple.
That is a statement that's completely against Scripture. Human beings are not animals, and as such we are held to a higher standard than they are. God makes it very clear in both the Old and New Testaments that homosexuality is an abombination...it's that simple.
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S
You don't know my heart, and I don't know yours...but this seems to me like more of an accusation than anything else. I wasted ten years of my life as a slave to lust, and God Himself saved me from it. I'm not perfect, but by his grace I continue to succeed. If you don't think masturbation can be successfully separated from lust, that's your opinion, and you're free to it...but don't even try to say I'm decieving myself or others. You work with homosexuals and prison inmates who have struggled with various lust issues; good, I'm actually pleased to hear that. But everyone's story is different, and we are not all at the same place. With all due respect, back off.[/quote]
Actually friend, I was hoping you would respond with a little more passion by providing evidence that might actually support your claim, but now I think you've satisfied what really helps to expose deceptions such as these, more rhetoric. My efforts are, in actuality, toward the readers of these posts. Normally, if there isn't significant resistance to false teachings, there may be a few who actually become somewhat persuaded, but I am now satisfied that you have provided sufficient rhetoric to show the readers exactly what your theories, (in this post), are comprised of.
I enjoyed your post in another thread pertaining to ' the separation of Church and State'. You certainly did a little research in that one. I do often underestimate the discerning abilities of the readers of these posts when I consider just how individuals measure the 'thread content' with the truth of the bible, but I'm certain there are some who are not quickly moved by every new wind and wave of doctrine.
You have my word that, 'in this thread', I've said everything that needs to be said and you may carry on freely with your theory. Backing off now .
Actually friend, I was hoping you would respond with a little more passion by providing evidence that might actually support your claim, but now I think you've satisfied what really helps to expose deceptions such as these, more rhetoric. My efforts are, in actuality, toward the readers of these posts. Normally, if there isn't significant resistance to false teachings, there may be a few who actually become somewhat persuaded, but I am now satisfied that you have provided sufficient rhetoric to show the readers exactly what your theories, (in this post), are comprised of.
I enjoyed your post in another thread pertaining to ' the separation of Church and State'. You certainly did a little research in that one. I do often underestimate the discerning abilities of the readers of these posts when I consider just how individuals measure the 'thread content' with the truth of the bible, but I'm certain there are some who are not quickly moved by every new wind and wave of doctrine.
You have my word that, 'in this thread', I've said everything that needs to be said and you may carry on freely with your theory. Backing off now
.