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S
Moviefan,
To say that masturbation is not a sin, and to base that loosely on an unfounded hypothetical, is to conduct a discussion with no basis whatsoever. The facts are, percentages of men and women strugglling with this, as well as the preferences which support the behavior, are all documented fact, based on studies and personal information shared by those who have indulged in this behavior. The only evidence pointing to 'masturbation without lust' is connected to young children.
Even the statistical data avaliable, does not accurately reflect the actual number of people who masturbate. The numbers would be far higher if it did, but of these, I can tell you there are no reports indicating that any percentage of adults, masturbate consistently without lust, recreationally or otherwise. The fact that this behavior has such high potential for addiction, and appeals to the pleasure center in the brain which moves the person to become more and more creative, actually prevents the habit from remaining in a lustless state. The same would apply to those who were predisposed to drug addiction and progress from lesser to more dangerous drugs.
No one would argue, perhaps even yourself, the point, that masturbation is a sexual act. The fact that this act does not require a partner and is not intercourse, represents sexual deviation. The term deviant would seem harsh, but it does apply to this and other acts.
The word of God instructs us not to allow the parts of our bodies to be used for sinful purposes,
Romans 6:13
Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
When it comes to sex, the parts of our bodies which were designed for the completion of sexual intercourse were designed for that purpose alone. Therefore any use of these parts, apart from God's intended purposes, to achieve sexual gratification signifies a deviance from their original purpose. This is what makes masturbation a sin.
To say that masturbation is not a sin, and to base that loosely on an unfounded hypothetical, is to conduct a discussion with no basis whatsoever. The facts are, percentages of men and women strugglling with this, as well as the preferences which support the behavior, are all documented fact, based on studies and personal information shared by those who have indulged in this behavior. The only evidence pointing to 'masturbation without lust' is connected to young children.
Even the statistical data avaliable, does not accurately reflect the actual number of people who masturbate. The numbers would be far higher if it did, but of these, I can tell you there are no reports indicating that any percentage of adults, masturbate consistently without lust, recreationally or otherwise. The fact that this behavior has such high potential for addiction, and appeals to the pleasure center in the brain which moves the person to become more and more creative, actually prevents the habit from remaining in a lustless state. The same would apply to those who were predisposed to drug addiction and progress from lesser to more dangerous drugs.
No one would argue, perhaps even yourself, the point, that masturbation is a sexual act. The fact that this act does not require a partner and is not intercourse, represents sexual deviation. The term deviant would seem harsh, but it does apply to this and other acts.
The word of God instructs us not to allow the parts of our bodies to be used for sinful purposes,
Romans 6:13
Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
When it comes to sex, the parts of our bodies which were designed for the completion of sexual intercourse were designed for that purpose alone. Therefore any use of these parts, apart from God's intended purposes, to achieve sexual gratification signifies a deviance from their original purpose. This is what makes masturbation a sin.
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G
I know what you are saying and I agree partly, but disagree totally that nothing should be said. How one approaches these things is the big mistake what many make, but to just pray about it and say nothing I disagree, I have already made it known to him that I know, but not in a scolding way or demanding that he does not do it. I believe that he must be presented with the Truth about ALL things and then nurchure those truths and hold him up in prayer. how he deals/accepts it will be up to him but as a parent it is my duty to show him right from wrong biblically then the choice is his.
Regarding the other posts that argue on that it is natural...yes you all are dead right....as we are born into sin and we all follow the flesh, that is why God sent Jesus to deliver us from the flesh...because our ways (the flesh) is not Gods ways, and that is why we are to renew our minds with the mind of Christ...
Regarding the other posts that argue on that it is natural...yes you all are dead right....as we are born into sin and we all follow the flesh, that is why God sent Jesus to deliver us from the flesh...because our ways (the flesh) is not Gods ways, and that is why we are to renew our minds with the mind of Christ...
First, there's no reason to yell.
Secondly, here's one possibility: Paul wrote to the Corinthians that if people can no longer control themselves, they should marry. Have you ever thought that maybe - just maybe - God knew that some people would be waiting longer for marriage than others (especially in today's culture), and that masturbation can be used as a "preventive measure" within God's standards, to allow people an occasional physical release so their drives don't consume them?
Of all the sexual sins explicitly and implicitly listed in Scripture, masturbation isn't found once; that fact alone could serve as a clue to His intentions. Being all-knowing, God obviously recognized that when left unchecked, masturbation would become more of a drawback than a benefit...so why would He not have mentioned it? Not many people on Earth have sex with animals nowadays, but that's clearly listed in Scripture as sinful. Why would God include something like that, and leave masturbation out? Is it possible - no matter how remotely - that God could've had a righteous context for this practice, which did not involve lust as its fuel source?
Also, I think its important to dstinct between "sexual pleasure" and "lustful pleasure". They are not the same thing. God prohibits sex for singles because He knows how destructive the consequences are: disease, unwanted pregnancy, jealousy, distrust, emotional and spiritual heartbreak, etc. But how does the physical act of masturbation itself inherently produce any of those things? It doesn't. People may feel guilty after masturbating, but that doesn't always mean its from God. It could be righteous conviction over lust, to be sure...but it could also be false guilt from peer pressure, fear of what others might think, or condemnation from the enemy. God is not cruel, and He said that no temptation is new among mankind. He also said that He would provide a way of escape from it...what if, when used without lustful thoughts, masturbation is a form of escape for those who are not married yet? Is there any possibility whatsoever of that being true?
Secondly, here's one possibility: Paul wrote to the Corinthians that if people can no longer control themselves, they should marry. Have you ever thought that maybe - just maybe - God knew that some people would be waiting longer for marriage than others (especially in today's culture), and that masturbation can be used as a "preventive measure" within God's standards, to allow people an occasional physical release so their drives don't consume them?
Of all the sexual sins explicitly and implicitly listed in Scripture, masturbation isn't found once; that fact alone could serve as a clue to His intentions. Being all-knowing, God obviously recognized that when left unchecked, masturbation would become more of a drawback than a benefit...so why would He not have mentioned it? Not many people on Earth have sex with animals nowadays, but that's clearly listed in Scripture as sinful. Why would God include something like that, and leave masturbation out? Is it possible - no matter how remotely - that God could've had a righteous context for this practice, which did not involve lust as its fuel source?
Also, I think its important to dstinct between "sexual pleasure" and "lustful pleasure". They are not the same thing. God prohibits sex for singles because He knows how destructive the consequences are: disease, unwanted pregnancy, jealousy, distrust, emotional and spiritual heartbreak, etc. But how does the physical act of masturbation itself inherently produce any of those things? It doesn't. People may feel guilty after masturbating, but that doesn't always mean its from God. It could be righteous conviction over lust, to be sure...but it could also be false guilt from peer pressure, fear of what others might think, or condemnation from the enemy. God is not cruel, and He said that no temptation is new among mankind. He also said that He would provide a way of escape from it...what if, when used without lustful thoughts, masturbation is a form of escape for those who are not married yet? Is there any possibility whatsoever of that being true?
S
If anyone ever wondered how man made doctrines are developed, this is one in the making. Here is the recipe, first you develop hypotheticals and assumptions, using the experiences of man to define the word of God, rather than using the word of God to define acceptable conduct. Then you claim that because God did not provide a list of every type of behavior known to man, we reserve the right to make up our own rules. The claim that masturbation is not in the bible is simply not true.
Every one both in and outside of this thread knows the meaning of the word perverse, or to pervert. It simply means 'to deviate from what is right or correct, or to corrupt what is good'. Now, count how many times the word perverse or perverseness appears in the bible, in both the Old and New testaments. Masturbation is a perversion of sexual intercourse. There are any number of accounts of sexual intercourse in the bible, but not one account of masturbation, did God forget to include it? No!
Moviefan would also have a hard time finding terms such as:
O... sex
Exhibitionism
Fettishes of every type
Consentual Sadomasochism
Pornography
There are others, but I think you understand the point. All of these are deviations or perversions of sexual intercourse.
There are also many situations not included in the bible such as,,
Bulemia
Self Cutting
Suicide
Acupuncture
Abortion
If we look specifically for these terms, we will not find them, but do we begin to accept them simply because these words are not clearly spelled out in OT or NT scripture??
If we were to live by 'Moviefans' new philosophy, we would not only have to remove the words perverse or perverseness from the bible, but there are any number of practices which originated in man's imagination, which would have to be considered acceptable, simply because they're not mentioned.
Again, Masturbation is a perversion of sexual intercourse, and anyone who cannot find perverse or perverseness in the bible is using the wrong bible.
Acts 20:30
... Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
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No need to start making wild accusations, Songster. I don't go around doing that kind of thing to you, do I?
You're basing this explanation on a personal view that God intends for people not to masturbate, and that isn't found anywhere in Scripture. If anyone wants to add to the Bible by saying something is sinful, then the burden rests on them to first explain why God did not say so himself.
The word sex is mentioned many times in the Bible; which version are you reading? Also, the act of intercourse is mentioned both explicitly and implicitly many times in Scripture.
Exhibitionism is something that would cause someone else to lust, which violates God's command against lust itself, and also His command to avoid those things around others which would cause them to stumble.
That depends on how you classify a "fetish". I happen to believe that well-endowed women are attractive; does that make me a fetishist?
God clearly does not condone unjust pain being inflicted on others, so this example doesn't work.
Porn is implicitly referenced as part of the "sexual worship" shrines of the pagan god Baal.
Judas hung himself; that's one depiction of suicide right there.
Very young children were killed by Pharoah's army in the days of Moses, an activity which God clearly condemns since He commanded people not to murder. A similar instance occured again with Herod when Jesus was born.
You're basing this explanation on a personal view that God intends for people not to masturbate, and that isn't found anywhere in Scripture. If anyone wants to add to the Bible by saying something is sinful, then the burden rests on them to first explain why God did not say so himself.
The word sex is mentioned many times in the Bible; which version are you reading? Also, the act of intercourse is mentioned both explicitly and implicitly many times in Scripture.
Exhibitionism is something that would cause someone else to lust, which violates God's command against lust itself, and also His command to avoid those things around others which would cause them to stumble.
That depends on how you classify a "fetish". I happen to believe that well-endowed women are attractive; does that make me a fetishist?
God clearly does not condone unjust pain being inflicted on others, so this example doesn't work.
Porn is implicitly referenced as part of the "sexual worship" shrines of the pagan god Baal.
Judas hung himself; that's one depiction of suicide right there.
Very young children were killed by Pharoah's army in the days of Moses, an activity which God clearly condemns since He commanded people not to murder. A similar instance occured again with Herod when Jesus was born.
The phrase "thou shalt not masturbate" is not found anywhere in Scripture; in fact, the physical act itself isn't even described. Given the guilt and shame which are often attached to it, I find it very strange that God wouldn't mention it outright. After all, if He knew it would be such a problem (which He'd have to, in order to be all-knowing), then how would any kind of justice be served by not explaining it to His people? There's rarely any doubt that masturbation was both known of and practiced in Biblical times, so ignorance isn't the reason. Given all of these things, I'm led to conclude that the root problem isn't the physical act itself, but the lust which often goes with it.
To make it a bit clearer, how would you propose solving this situation: let's say a man and woman are married, and they enojy a vibrant love life. Suddenly, one of them is no longer able to perform sexually for their spouse (due to injury, disease, etc.). Are either of them doomed to a sexless life, regardless...or did God provide an alternative that could serve a similar purpose?
To make it a bit clearer, how would you propose solving this situation: let's say a man and woman are married, and they enojy a vibrant love life. Suddenly, one of them is no longer able to perform sexually for their spouse (due to injury, disease, etc.). Are either of them doomed to a sexless life, regardless...or did God provide an alternative that could serve a similar purpose?
S
If you'll recall ,these children were to be killed once they were born, you see, they didn't have sonograms in that day, so the midwives had to actually wait until they were outside of the womans body before determining the sex of the child, and only the sons were to be killed. That would be a really late term abortion.
The same would apply in the case of Jesus and Herod, chasing a child across the desert does not quite meet the criteria for abortion.
Abortion is still extremely controversial, because some still have a problem determining exactly when the fetus is considered a person, and according to your logic, they have every right to do so, because the word 'Abortion' or an equivalent scripture, is no where to be found in the OT or NT.
The same would apply in the case of Jesus and Herod, chasing a child across the desert does not quite meet the criteria for abortion.
Abortion is still extremely controversial, because some still have a problem determining exactly when the fetus is considered a person, and according to your logic, they have every right to do so, because the word 'Abortion' or an equivalent scripture, is no where to be found in the OT or NT.
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Y'know, I am not going to get trapped into an endless series of semantic arguments with you, or anyone else. For the record, i do not believe tht oral sex is inherently sinful. I do think it should be saved for married couples only, and even then there must be total consent between both the husband and wife.
Secondly, I was actually not aware of any other cultures having statues depicting masturbation, but even then the concept is that those statues were built as symbols of lust. Only God truly knows the most intricate details of the human heart, but if someone claims they are capable of masturbating without lust, who am I to say otherwise? I don't know their heart.
Thirdly, Juas hanging himself is clearly a depiction of suicide in the Bible, and an explicit one at that. If I remember correctly, King Saul also fell onto his own sword, which would be another example of it. My point about masturbation is that in addition to the term not being in Scripture, there's no actual depiction of the activity, either. The absence of all references in this case (both explicit and implicit) is the main factor here.
Finally, Herod didn't chase Jesus or his parents to Egypt; in fact, they didn't even know he'd gone there. Joseph was warned by an angel of Herod's plan, and so he left with Mary & Jesus in tow. As for Pharoah's actions, his soldiers invaded the homes of citizens and killed their children in front of them! Abortion is the modern-day equivalent.
Secondly, I was actually not aware of any other cultures having statues depicting masturbation, but even then the concept is that those statues were built as symbols of lust. Only God truly knows the most intricate details of the human heart, but if someone claims they are capable of masturbating without lust, who am I to say otherwise? I don't know their heart.
Thirdly, Juas hanging himself is clearly a depiction of suicide in the Bible, and an explicit one at that. If I remember correctly, King Saul also fell onto his own sword, which would be another example of it. My point about masturbation is that in addition to the term not being in Scripture, there's no actual depiction of the activity, either. The absence of all references in this case (both explicit and implicit) is the main factor here.
Finally, Herod didn't chase Jesus or his parents to Egypt; in fact, they didn't even know he'd gone there. Joseph was warned by an angel of Herod's plan, and so he left with Mary & Jesus in tow. As for Pharoah's actions, his soldiers invaded the homes of citizens and killed their children in front of them! Abortion is the modern-day equivalent.
S
quote=Moviefan2k4;206547]Y'know, I am not going to get trapped into an endless series of semantic arguments with you, or anyone else. For the record, i do not believe that oral sex is inherently sinful. I do think it should be saved for married couples only, and even then there must be total consent between both the husband and wife.
This is another clear example of assumptions based on the illusion that the truth of God's word is subject to analysis and re-interpretation, or requires updating so that it includes what God apparently forgot. I've shown you clearly that ancient people in connection with their religious practices, regularly participated in acts of masturbation as far back as the 4th millenium BC, and the laws of the OT forbade Israel from mimicking the religious practices of surrounding cultures.
I've correctly defined the word Perverseness as defined by any on or offline dictionary, as ( a deviation from what is considered right or correct), or (something changed to become abnormal or unnatural), which both masturbation and oral sex are, as well as fetishes, conducted for sexual gratification.
Secondly, I was actually not aware of any other cultures having statues depicting masturbation, but even then the concept is that those statues were built as symbols of lust. Only God truly knows the most intricate details of the human heart, but
You were formerly unaware of their existence, but somehow you are now able to educate me as to their symbolic meaning? This is either fast googling, or yet another assumption. In any event, there were far more than simple statues depicting this behavior.
if someone claims they are capable of masturbating without lust, who am I to say otherwise? I don't know their heart.
This is my point, my friend, no one has reported anything of the sort. You have no scriptural or statistical information verifying anything you've claimed in any post. Your entire argument has been based on personal theories and the avoidance of scripture. Not to mention this purely hypothetical theory involving masturbation without lust. Had some group studies been conducted supporting your hypothesis that masturbation is consistently possible without lusting, you would surely have presented it. You would have come closer to making your case, but no such information was presented because it doesn't exist. It is a clear case of attempting to redefine perverseness, and reinterpret the word of God in an attempt to modernize the concept of sex.
Thirdly, Judas hanging himself is clearly a depiction of suicide in the Bible, and an explicit one at that. If I remember correctly, King Saul also fell onto his own sword, which would be another example of it. My point about masturbation is that in addition to the term not being in Scripture, there's no actual depiction of the activity, either. The absence of all references in this case (both explicit and implicit) is the main factor here.
These are all cases of suicide, but the mere fact that these situations appear in the bible, neither condones nor condemns suicide. This is in accordance with your logic, that whenever you perceive that there is an apparent lack of evidence in scripture clearly explaining whether an act is acceptable or unacceptable behavior, we are permitted to develop our own theories based on assumption, as you've done with masturbation, and now, with oral sex.
Finally, Herod didn't chase Jesus or his parents to Egypt; in fact, they didn't even know he'd gone there. Joseph was warned by an angel of Herod's plan, and so he left with Mary & Jesus in tow. As for Pharoah's actions, his soldiers invaded the homes of citizens and killed their children in front of them! Abortion is the modern-day equivalent.[/quote]
Herod pursuing Jesus, was not to be taken in the literal sense. I simply meant that he sought the life of the child. Pharaohs soldiers killed born sons, outside of the womb. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy within the womb, which can occur at several stages of development. My point here was that if we follow your logic, pro-abortion christians and activists can assume that because the word 'Abortion' does not appear in the bible, nor the actual performance of an Abortion, there is room for theoretical assumption.
That aside, I have a question. What is your interpretation of Perverted, Perverseness and/or Perversion?? Please understand that I am not engaging in semantical games, I am interested in knowing your definition for this word which is stated many times in both Old and New testament scripture.
If you wish to end this discussion, or at least our exchange, I will understand perfectly
This is another clear example of assumptions based on the illusion that the truth of God's word is subject to analysis and re-interpretation, or requires updating so that it includes what God apparently forgot. I've shown you clearly that ancient people in connection with their religious practices, regularly participated in acts of masturbation as far back as the 4th millenium BC, and the laws of the OT forbade Israel from mimicking the religious practices of surrounding cultures.
I've correctly defined the word Perverseness as defined by any on or offline dictionary, as ( a deviation from what is considered right or correct), or (something changed to become abnormal or unnatural), which both masturbation and oral sex are, as well as fetishes, conducted for sexual gratification.
Secondly, I was actually not aware of any other cultures having statues depicting masturbation, but even then the concept is that those statues were built as symbols of lust. Only God truly knows the most intricate details of the human heart, but
You were formerly unaware of their existence, but somehow you are now able to educate me as to their symbolic meaning? This is either fast googling, or yet another assumption. In any event, there were far more than simple statues depicting this behavior.
if someone claims they are capable of masturbating without lust, who am I to say otherwise? I don't know their heart.
This is my point, my friend, no one has reported anything of the sort. You have no scriptural or statistical information verifying anything you've claimed in any post. Your entire argument has been based on personal theories and the avoidance of scripture. Not to mention this purely hypothetical theory involving masturbation without lust. Had some group studies been conducted supporting your hypothesis that masturbation is consistently possible without lusting, you would surely have presented it. You would have come closer to making your case, but no such information was presented because it doesn't exist. It is a clear case of attempting to redefine perverseness, and reinterpret the word of God in an attempt to modernize the concept of sex.
Thirdly, Judas hanging himself is clearly a depiction of suicide in the Bible, and an explicit one at that. If I remember correctly, King Saul also fell onto his own sword, which would be another example of it. My point about masturbation is that in addition to the term not being in Scripture, there's no actual depiction of the activity, either. The absence of all references in this case (both explicit and implicit) is the main factor here.
These are all cases of suicide, but the mere fact that these situations appear in the bible, neither condones nor condemns suicide. This is in accordance with your logic, that whenever you perceive that there is an apparent lack of evidence in scripture clearly explaining whether an act is acceptable or unacceptable behavior, we are permitted to develop our own theories based on assumption, as you've done with masturbation, and now, with oral sex.
Finally, Herod didn't chase Jesus or his parents to Egypt; in fact, they didn't even know he'd gone there. Joseph was warned by an angel of Herod's plan, and so he left with Mary & Jesus in tow. As for Pharoah's actions, his soldiers invaded the homes of citizens and killed their children in front of them! Abortion is the modern-day equivalent.[/quote]
Herod pursuing Jesus, was not to be taken in the literal sense. I simply meant that he sought the life of the child. Pharaohs soldiers killed born sons, outside of the womb. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy within the womb, which can occur at several stages of development. My point here was that if we follow your logic, pro-abortion christians and activists can assume that because the word 'Abortion' does not appear in the bible, nor the actual performance of an Abortion, there is room for theoretical assumption.
That aside, I have a question. What is your interpretation of Perverted, Perverseness and/or Perversion?? Please understand that I am not engaging in semantical games, I am interested in knowing your definition for this word which is stated many times in both Old and New testament scripture.
If you wish to end this discussion, or at least our exchange, I will understand perfectly
I would tend to agree with your definition of perversity, but you automatically jump to the conclusion that masturbation and oral sex are perversions, without mentioning any concrete Biblical basis for those assertions. Your argument has been, "Perversity is the twisting of something pure, and sexual intercourse is pure, so masturbation and oral sex are perversions." However, you don't mention any Biblical or personal basis for that conclusion; you simply leap towards the end with no bridge to "cross the gap".
I agree that sexual intercourse, in its raw state, is a sacred form of bonding created by God for marriage only. However, I do not believe that within marriage, it has to be restricted by boundaries God Himself never set. Here's God;s rules, in essence...
1) No third parties
2) No incest (since its no longer necessary)
3) No children
4) No animals
5) Nothing which would be demeaning to either yourself, your spouse, or God
However, that still leaves quite a bit of room for invention and such, between a Godly husband and wife. If masturbation and oral sex were so evil, why would God not have outlined it in the Bible? There's only three options to choose from:
1) He didn't know it would be such a problem for people
2) He knew it would be damaging, but ignored it
3) He doesn't consider it inherently sinful.
The first of these would limit God's divine knowledge, while the second would make Him cruel...both of which are against His character. Therefore, the only conclusion I've arrived at is the last one.
I agree that sexual intercourse, in its raw state, is a sacred form of bonding created by God for marriage only. However, I do not believe that within marriage, it has to be restricted by boundaries God Himself never set. Here's God;s rules, in essence...
1) No third parties
2) No incest (since its no longer necessary)
3) No children
4) No animals
5) Nothing which would be demeaning to either yourself, your spouse, or God
However, that still leaves quite a bit of room for invention and such, between a Godly husband and wife. If masturbation and oral sex were so evil, why would God not have outlined it in the Bible? There's only three options to choose from:
1) He didn't know it would be such a problem for people
2) He knew it would be damaging, but ignored it
3) He doesn't consider it inherently sinful.
The first of these would limit God's divine knowledge, while the second would make Him cruel...both of which are against His character. Therefore, the only conclusion I've arrived at is the last one.
N
Who are you to say oral sex is not bad.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
Theres your proof sex is BAD unless you are married.
Oral sex Is bad & masturbation is also wrong.
Masturbation fall in the catagory of lust.
Masturbation is for pleasure not because you have to do it in order to survive or just because, but its something most people do for lust.
Honestly anyone who has read the bible would know that sex without marriage is a sin.
Even if its oral sex its still lust & its still fornication. Try to argue your way saying its not but sorry you are wrong.
If you dont believe me then ask God to open your eyes to see the real truth that oral sex is wrong unless your married then i dont know for sure maybe okay since your married or maybe still wrong... not sure on that one...
But i do know oral sex with a person whom are you NOT married with is wrong.
I prayed that he opens your eyes.