$63 per hour ain't enough!

[1ofthem]

Much of what you say is true, but remember it all began years ago when many just refused to leave and accepted things as they were.
These people have paid union dues for years making the union leaders rich and for what.
It is terrible work environment and people still put up with it.
It is never to late to say NO and just leave.

I'm sorry for derailing this thread and not trying to be rude...Just saying folks in coal country would think God smiled down upon them if they had a Toyota or Chevy factory to work for in their towns.

I'm sure they'd gladly do it for 20 to 25 dollars per hour. You wouldn't hear all the whining about wanting to be included in the profits, either. They'd be happy to have a safe, dependable job.

At present, if they do make it without getting killed in a rock fall, then all they've got to look forward to is suffocating to death from black lung. And yes many, people have moved from coal towns. The population is decreasing more each year in these areas.

I just think it is a shame that unreal amounts of money has been made in these towns, yet none of it is or ever was put back into those communities.

They had there slaves and made sure there were no more opportunities for them other than coal mining. They knew the people loved their homes and families and would do whatever it took to stay in their home and feed their families.

Yet the government can shell out money to bring in immigrants, when some parts of coal country looks like a third world country. They feed and house immigrants, and make sure they have every opportunity for employment even at the cost of American citizens. However, that's no the case in Coal Country...I guess their just to white, and stupid or something like that...

Anyhow, I've came to realize there is no hope for it. I earn a good living and have a cake job, but I still feel guilty because I know I'm earning it at the expense of some poor coal miners tax dollars they broke their backs to earn.

Also people from India and other places are buying up our towns because they don't have to pay taxes for 5 to 10 years. But all of us white American slaves have to...

 

[1ofthem]

Anyhow sorry for the rants again. This is just a very touchy subject for me. I've had many family member to die from black lung and or get crippled or killed in the coal mines. All just to feed their families.

Anyhow sorry again y'all can have this thread back...lol

I agree 63 dollars per hour is way too much money to cry about when all your doing is standing in an assembly line....lol

 

[UnderGrace]

Anyhow sorry for the rants again. This is just a very touchy subject for me. I've had many family member to die from black lung and or get crippled or killed in the coal mines. All just to feed their families.

Anyhow sorry again y'all can have this thread back...lol

I agree 63 dollars per hour is way too much money to cry about when all your doing is standing in an assembly line....lol

Having visited an assembly line in Michigan years ago and have family who worked there, it really is not an easy job for many reasons.

 

[1ofthem]

I'm sorry for derailing this thread and not trying to be rude...Just saying folks in coal country would think God smiled down upon them if they had a Toyota or Chevy factory to work for in their towns.

I'm sure they'd gladly do it for 20 to 25 dollars per hour. You wouldn't hear all the whining about wanting to be included in the profits, either. They'd be happy to have a safe, dependable job.

At present, if they do make it without getting killed in a rock fall, then all they've got to look forward to is suffocating to death from black lung. And yes many, people have moved from coal towns. The population is decreasing more each year in these areas.

I just think it is a shame that unreal amounts of money has been made in these towns, yet none of it is or ever was put back into those communities.

They had there slaves and made sure there were no more opportunities for them other than coal mining. They knew the people loved their homes and families and would do whatever it took to stay in their home and feed their families.

Yet the government can shell out money to bring in immigrants, when some parts of coal country looks like a third world country. They feed and house immigrants, and make sure they have every opportunity for employment even at the cost of American citizens. However, that's no the case in Coal Country...I guess their just to white, and stupid or something like that...

Anyhow, I've came to realize there is no hope for it. I earn a good living and have a cake job, but I still feel guilty because I know I'm earning it at the expense of some poor coal miners tax dollars they broke their backs to earn.

Also people from India and other places are buying up our towns because they don't have to pay taxes for 5 to 10 years. But all of us white American slaves have to...

Edit....Their, they're, there...switch it all around and then it will be correct grammar...lol

 

[1ofthem]

Having visited an assembly line in Michigan years ago and have family who worked there, it really is not an easy job for many reasons.

Yes, I'm sure it's not a pie job and I shouldn't have insinuated that....Just pointing out that it can always be a whole lot worse....

I'm just on a rant right now... So just look over me....lol

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes, I'm sure it's not a pie job and I shouldn't have insinuated that....Just pointing out that it can always be a whole lot worse....

I'm just on a rant right now... So just look over me....lol

No worries I know understand the frustration... lots of bad deals everywhere.

It could be worse. I agree ... when it comes to the auto industry in North America there have been a lot of bad decisions and plays from the very top..... to the guy on the line and every one in between.

 

[posthuman]

Are you talking about the workers who construct the cars on the assembly line?

assembly line workers usually make something closer to $15-$20 per hour depending on what they actually do and often don't get any benefits.

the '$63' number is summed by including whatever cash value is placed on benefits like health/life/dismemberment insurance, 401k, vacation days and average bonuses if any, might include such things as discounts offered on lease car programs. that $63 is calculated to include projected overtime and the average salaries of senior management that usually make 3 times what an 'average worker' makes, lumped altogether with anyone who is UAW and doesn't include union dues subtracted from it.

it's not like they all actually take home $2500 gross for every 40 hour week. more like 7 or 800 / wk gross for the average assembly worker. those are the low people on the totem pole, just above a pretty large janitorial staff. their job is often just to feed robots that do the real work.


there's an auto plant near me i've done contract work for analyzing their enormous data sets, so i know a little bit about it. it's not union tho, and it is true, on average union workers are paid more than non-union, because they have bargaining power by virtue of their collective numbers; same way walmart is able to force low prices from their wholesalers, because they buy in enormous bulk.

 

[posthuman]

Having visited an assembly line in Michigan years ago and have family who worked there, it really is not an easy job for many reasons.

yeah i would not enjoy an assembly job, at all. endless mundane repetition, little respect, easily replaced, and a whole lot of stress. no thanks.

 

[posthuman]

But add the benefit cost to that because that is the true cost.

well, the true cost is the cost to the employer, not what the worker actually nets. employers have to pay insurance like workman's comp. and other things based on head count that doesn't have anything to do with what they actually pay to an employee. a single employee can cost an employer twice what the employee's salary is, or even more sometimes especially when you hire someone who flakes after you spend a lot training them while they're still not productive, or you get someone who does things wrong and you have to cover costs of fixing all their mistakes.

this whole thing, it's a lot more clear when you look at what the union is actually looking for, in re: the actual noobie assembly line wage. then you're talking about, they have to be able to attract people who are dependable and have aptitude to do the work, and those people are thinking, i can run a checkout at a grocery store for the same $$$ and less stress and more job security, so..

it's a more complicated story than a headline with a kind of deceptive number in it tells us.

 

[posthuman]

I have never understood a worker that does not have enough back bone to stand up for what he believes is proper pay, benefits, and working conditions but had to pay a third party to do that for him.

because when one person does it, they're usually just canned and replaced with one of a hundred people waiting in line for some job, any job. but when you have literally thousands of people unified raising their voice about it, and all those people can walk out and literally cripple a plant, costing the ownership literally hundreds of millions of dollars while they dispute, they have bargaining power. that conglomerate bargaining power is the real appeal & usefulness of unions.
in my area we don't have many unions, if we have any at all, and the general attitude about them is hateful. so i can't comment on fairness etc -- i can't really trust what people around here say about them to be accurate, and i don't have any first-hand experience, but i understand the concept because it's mirrored in a whole lot of other things. there's security and strength in a group.

when you are poor, it's not as easy as just walking away if you don't get your complaints addressed. you don't have a buffer of cash to live on while you look for something else. you may be unskilled, have a bad history of some kind, and no guarantee that you can even find another job within a few months. when you quit a job, you aren't eligible for unemployment, either. it can really hurt to leave a job, no matter how badly you're getting treated -- not a simple calculation to make.

 

[posthuman]

NO ONE is forcing those men to work in those mines.

there ain't a whole lot of other opportunities in rural KY or WV etc. walmart only employees so many people, and doesn't pay anything close to what a miner earns.
there's definitely a force of situation at play there, it's move away, if you can, find a pretty cruddy low-paying job elsewhere, if you can, or work in a mine. rural Appalachia is really sad, in some places - i grew up in those areas, tho fortunately in a larger city away from mining communities, and i'm really familiar and sympathetic with the itty bitty towns around mines where you honestly hardly have any other choices.

 

[posthuman]

What always kills me when employees get their undies in a knot over corporate profits is their lack of understanding of just how far that profit goes since it isn't money sitting in a vault somewhere. New equipment has to be written off over a period of years as it depreciates so that 10 million dollar retool at a GM plant doesn't show on their taxes as money spent all at once. Likewise, (using GM as the example) GM has 1.43 billion shares on the stock market. Each one of those stock shares pays a dividend to the shareholder in which case (when you consider the stockholders who own the company) that 8.1 billion in profit doesn't go far when it's spread around. A large chunk of corporate stocks are owned by middle class persons via retirement investment (no it's not all owned by those who are ridiculously rich).

GM also mass produces. they make tons of cars that are never sold, ever. that's all loss, to the company.

 

[posthuman]

They had no other opportunities. It was work in the Coal Mines, move away from your home and everything you knew, or starve.

They fought for a union in the 70's and got a little better treatment. However, big coal wanted no part of a union so once again the miners in Southeastern KY, had to do what they do just to get by, and that was work in whatever dog hole they could to support their families and let the union go or they were blacklisted and would never get a job .

There is no union in Southeast KY and this is what the miners got just recently: They worked for a month and didn't even get paid. Had no access to their 401k and could not even get unemployment because they did not quit or get fired. There pay checks bounced in the bank.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/blackjewel-miners-protest-after-bankruptcy-leaves-them-without-pay/#x

and nowadays they strip mine instead, with way fewer employees, permanently and irreconcilably destroying the landscape & habitat of all kinds of living creatures, & often poisoning water supplies. it's terrible

 

[SpoonJuly]

I

there ain't a whole lot of other opportunities in rural KY or WV etc. walmart only employees so many people, and doesn't pay anything close to what a miner earns.
there's definitely a force of situation at play there, it's move away, if you can, find a pretty cruddy low-paying job elsewhere, if you can, or work in a mine. rural Appalachia is really sad, in some places - i grew up in those areas, tho fortunately in a larger city away from mining communities, and i'm really familiar and sympathetic with the itty bitty towns around mines where you honestly hardly have any other choices.

Why are working conditions so bad when these people have a union?
I thought people joined unions, paid dues, making union big wigs rich to correct these problems.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you for your thoughtful input, @posthuman I appreciate it

 

[SpoonJuly]

because when one person does it, they're usually just canned and replaced with one of a hundred people waiting in line for some job, any job. but when you have literally thousands of people unified raising their voice about it, and all those people can walk out and literally cripple a plant, costing the ownership literally hundreds of millions of dollars while they dispute, they have bargaining power. that conglomerate bargaining power is the real appeal & usefulness of unions.
in my area we don't have many unions, if we have any at all, and the general attitude about them is hateful. so i can't comment on fairness etc -- i can't really trust what people around here say about them to be accurate, and i don't have any first-hand experience, but i understand the concept because it's mirrored in a whole lot of other things. there's security and strength in a group.

when you are poor, it's not as easy as just walking away if you don't get your complaints addressed. you don't have a buffer of cash to live on while you look for something else. you may be unskilled, have a bad history of some kind, and no guarantee that you can even find another job within a few months. when you quit a job, you aren't eligible for unemployment, either. it can really hurt to leave a job, no matter how badly you're getting treated -- not a simple calculation to make.

If there are thousands seeking that job, it must be a fairly good job.
If you are to poor to quit, you are also to poor to go on strike because either way you are without a pay check.
If a person does not like the pay, benefits, and working conditions they should not accept the job.
What gives them the right to take that job and then complain and go on strike?

 

[UnderGrace]

because when one person does it, they're usually just canned and replaced with one of a hundred people waiting in line for some job, any job. but when you have literally thousands of people unified raising their voice about it, and all those people can walk out and literally cripple a plant, costing the ownership literally hundreds of millions of dollars while they dispute, they have bargaining power. that conglomerate bargaining power is the real appeal & usefulness of unions.
in my area we don't have many unions, if we have any at all, and the general attitude about them is hateful. so i can't comment on fairness etc -- i can't really trust what people around here say about them to be accurate, and i don't have any first-hand experience, but i understand the concept because it's mirrored in a whole lot of other things. there's security and strength in a group.

when you are poor, it's not as easy as just walking away if you don't get your complaints addressed. you don't have a buffer of cash to live on while you look for something else. you may be unskilled, have a bad history of some kind, and no guarantee that you can even find another job within a few months. when you quit a job, you aren't eligible for unemployment, either. it can really hurt to leave a job, no matter how badly you're getting treated -- not a simple calculation to make.

Post ... you would agree that this is a generalization

they're usually just canned and replaced with one of a hundred people

waiting in line for some job, any job.

This then requires that the worker be competitive in the market place and not reliant on any job.

 

[SpoonJuly]

The point I am trying to make is simple---
These GM workers have much better pay, benefits , and working conditions than most semiskilled workers (they are semiskilled) in the US and have been offered even better and they are going on strike.
I see that as an example of a bunch of greedy people who do not appreciate just how good they have it.

In my opinion they should all be replaced with people that would be glad to make what they now make.

 

[1ofthem]

and nowadays they strip mine instead, with way fewer employees, permanently and irreconcilably destroying the landscape & habitat of all kinds of living creatures, & often poisoning water supplies. it's terrible

Yeah, it is a terrible situation all the way around. They've been doing the strip mining in Virginia and it is terrible. It is devastating to look at and totally destroying the mountains there.

Coal is profiting no one except the coal corporations.

 

[posthuman]

Yeah, it is a terrible situation all the way around. They've been doing the strip mining in Virginia and it is terrible. It is devastating to look at and totally destroying the mountains there.

Coal is profiting no one except the coal corporations.

There is no 'clean coal' IMO. it must be even worse in China