And the books will be opened

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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,919
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#61
If all those Dems in congress and those running for president were required to give the same info as Trump, I bet this would end today.
There ain't no saints in Washington.
Perhaps the Pope might make Trump a Saint. He has to perform two miracles. His first was to be elected to office. The second would be
completing two terms
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
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#63
naw.

just the least intelligent

there are far bigger hypocrites...like the RHINOS
Well of course. When the moral shortcomings of Liberal politicians are illustrated, say that Republicans are worse. It's the very first default tactic when someone can't confront the lack of morality when it comes to virtually any Liberal politician while they are attempting to defend them. Like Ocasio-Cortez. She and her top aide are going to be investigated for illegal use of campaign funds. Her aide funneled a lot of that money into his own personal company. She chronically lies on Twitter when it comes to quotes from other people. That makes her a proven liar. She carps about the environment while still fliting around on a jet, using carbon-burning cars for her own personal transportation and eschewing public transportation in favor of same. Hypocrite. And no one who claims to be a Christian should be supporting anyone who also supports Liberalism. That isn't conjecture. That's Biblical fact.
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
93
28
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#64
What about Jimmy Carter?
You mean the guy who pals around with known terrorists like Hezbollah? You mean the guy who is virulently antisemitic? You mean the guy who apologized on national TV for attempting to rescue our own citizens from Iran? You mean the guy who thinks that people can be saved outside of a faith in Jesus Christ? The guy that says gay marriage is OK?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
27,404
5,714
113
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Florida
#65
You mean the guy who pals around with known terrorists like Hezbollah? You mean the guy who is virulently antisemitic? You mean the guy who apologized on national TV for attempting to rescue our own citizens from Iran? You mean the guy who thinks that people can be saved outside of a faith in Jesus Christ? The guy that says gay marriage is OK?
I met Jimmy Carter once a long time ago at Walt Disney World in the China exhibition.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
7,734
4,203
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#67
You mean the guy who pals around with known terrorists like Hezbollah? You mean the guy who is virulently antisemitic? You mean the guy who apologized on national TV for attempting to rescue our own citizens from Iran? You mean the guy who thinks that people can be saved outside of a faith in Jesus Christ? The guy that says gay marriage is OK?
Most all Presidents have been puppets for one agenda or another, some just more covert than others.
 

Susanna

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2013
3,155
441
83
#68
You mean the guy who pals around with known terrorists like Hezbollah? You mean the guy who is virulently antisemitic? You mean the guy who apologized on national TV for attempting to rescue our own citizens from Iran? You mean the guy who thinks that people can be saved outside of a faith in Jesus Christ? The guy that says gay marriage is OK?
Don’t blow a gasket, now...
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
93
28
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#69
Don’t blow a gasket, now...
And you would know that I am doing so . . . How?

Carter is often held up as some sort of model Christian when, in fact, he is fairly clueless when it comes to Christianity. I'm pointing out that he claims to be a wonderful Christian while, at the same time, supporting things God clearly says are wrong.
 

Susanna

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2013
3,155
441
83
#70
And you would know that I am doing so . . . How?

Carter is often held up as some sort of model Christian when, in fact, he is fairly clueless when it comes to Christianity. I'm pointing out that he claims to be a wonderful Christian while, at the same time, supporting things God clearly says are wrong.
But you, apparently, got all the answers lined up...
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
7,734
4,203
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#71
And you would know that I am doing so . . . How?

Carter is often held up as some sort of model Christian when, in fact, he is fairly clueless when it comes to Christianity. I'm pointing out that he claims to be a wonderful Christian while, at the same time, supporting things God clearly says are wrong.
The reason Presidents claim to be "Christian" is because this is what a section of the electorate wants, look at Trump.

This need for a Christian leader has really just created a platform for charlatans.

I think once a person sees this, there is no point making it about their standing on moral issues
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
6,471
2,238
113
#73
Well of course. When the moral shortcomings of Liberal politicians are illustrated, say that Republicans are worse. It's the very first default tactic when someone can't confront the lack of morality when it comes to virtually any Liberal politician while they are attempting to defend them. Like Ocasio-Cortez. She and her top aide are going to be investigated for illegal use of campaign funds. Her aide funneled a lot of that money into his own personal company. She chronically lies on Twitter when it comes to quotes from other people. That makes her a proven liar. She carps about the environment while still fliting around on a jet, using carbon-burning cars for her own personal transportation and eschewing public transportation in favor of same. Hypocrite. And no one who claims to be a Christian should be supporting anyone who also supports Liberalism. That isn't conjecture. That's Biblical fact.
she'll get out of it if it's true

wait and see

she's an elitist..comes from wealth and has zero idea what the lives of the people she claims to care about are actually like
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
93
28
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#74
The reason Presidents claim to be "Christian" is because this is what a section of the electorate wants, look at Trump.

This need for a Christian leader has really just created a platform for charlatans.

I think once a person sees this, there is no point making it about their standing on moral issues
Why do you find the concept of Christian leaders so repugnant?

Trump did not win because he claims to be a Christian. Since he claims that he was led to Jesus by Paula White, I wouldn't give his conversion story much weight, but you don't know if he is actually saved or not any more than I do, and it isn't your job to try and figure out where he is salvation-wise. All you can do is look at his fruit and gauge where that fruit is at, spiritually.

Moral issues, for a Christian are never supposed to be on a back burner. A Christian NEVER has the right to claim they can do whatever they want, no matter what God says when it comes to morals. When someone divorces themselves from moral components, they actually divorce themselves from Christ. This isn't a gray area. It hasn't been a gray area in the past, it isn't a gray area today and it will not be a gray area tomorrow. I am both amused and appalled every time I see some one who claims to be a Christian also saying that they can vote for anyone they want, including people that actively support things like abortion, gay rights, and racism, and it just doesn't matter. It's OK for them because they are a special case, and God really doesn't care what they do. God gives them a pass because they are "special." I'm sure they actually believe that, but just believing it isn't enough. Because they are 100% wrong. The country has gotten the leaders it deserves exactly because it took the low road of diminishing returns and began lowering the bar when it comes to it's leaders. A leader doesn't have to be Christian, but they should at least be morally sound or there is no reason, even secularly, to put them in office. Amoral people don't make good leaders. Anyone who dismisses morals as being unimportant when it comes to politics does so at their peril.
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
93
28
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#75
she'll get out of it if it's true

wait and see

she's an elitist..comes from wealth and has zero idea what the lives of the people she claims to care about are actually like
This is not a problem confined to Cortez. Whether Republican or Democrat, most politicians on the Hill are Elitists. The majority of them are rich ex-lawyers, and they do not know, nor do they care about life in the real world. They are the governmental equivalent of Hollywood celebrities.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
7,734
4,203
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#76
Why do you find the concept of Christian leaders so repugnant?
I did not state the idea was repugnant to me, nor did I dismiss morals. I think you have misread my post.

My point is that running on a religious platform or claiming to be Christian does not ensure a moral leader.

It is very clear the writers of the constitution having researched history decided that the best functioning political system is one where church and state are separated. This was to protect churches as well as the state.

One either creates a theocracy or one does not, even when abortion was not legal, every single vote cast for President from the inception of the USA was most likely a vote for a man who was amoral, an opportunist, duplicitous,etc., etc., they implemented policies behind the scenes that were not in the best interest of the citizens, but served their larger grander agenda.

The two exceptions possibly are Lincoln and Kennedy, I have taken Trump off the list.

So really no Christian should have ever vote for a President, because in reality it is always been a vote for evil. So while you champion abortion, which I find abhorrent as well, the USA has much historical blood on its hands apart from abortion.
That Mr. Cobalt is my point.






 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
6,471
2,238
113
#77
This is not a problem confined to Cortez. Whether Republican or Democrat, most politicians on the Hill are Elitists. The majority of them are rich ex-lawyers, and they do not know, nor do they care about life in the real world. They are the governmental equivalent of Hollywood celebrities.

I agree

government for and by the people seems to be in the rear view mirror if 'people' means those who live like most of us do...average
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
93
28
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#78
I did not state the idea was repugnant to me, nor did I dismiss morals. I think you have misread my post.

My point is that running on a religious platform or claiming to be Christian does not ensure a moral leader.

It is very clear the writers of the constitution having researched history decided that the best functioning political system is one where church and state are separated. This was to protect churches as well as the state.

One either creates a theocracy or one does not, even when abortion was not legal, every single vote cast for President from the inception of the USA was most likely a vote for a man who was amoral, an opportunist, duplicitous,etc., etc., they implemented policies behind the scenes that were not in the best interest of the citizens, but served their larger grander agenda.

The two exceptions possibly are Lincoln and Kennedy, I have taken Trump off the list.

So really no Christian should have ever vote for a President, because in reality it is always been a vote for evil. So while you champion abortion, which I find abhorrent as well, the USA has much historical blood on its hands apart from abortion. That Mr. Cobalt is my point.
It is always a non-starter to attempt to justify amoral behavior by the country's leaders today by tossing out the false dichotomy of "well, we did bad things in the past." Yes, we certainly did. And so has every single other country. The United States didn't corner the market on bad behavior. Every country has blood on it's hands. I'm not responsible for any of that because I wasn't here. Neither were you, so it has no bearing on this discussion. And that does not give anyone the right to vote for people who openly advocate sin, just because the country did bad things in the past. We are doing bad things right now, and the majority of Christians in this country just don't seem to care, and that speaks directly to where their relationship with Christ is at. At the very least, people who say it's OK to vote for a candidate that advocates abortion are estranged from Christ. You cannot serve God, and advocate amoral behavior at the same time. That is not possible.

Voting for a Christian does not mean one is attempting to create a theocracy. That is another rabbit trail. A Christian is supposed to vote for people who have good moral character. Spiritually, that is a simple no-brainer. Logically, everyone should know that amoral people do not make good leaders. They are incapable of being good leaders if they are amoral. I simply cannot wrap my head around the concept that someone who claims that Jesus is their Savior, and claims to now be a new creation in Christ can also walk into a polling place and cast a vote for a candidate that advocates abortion and tell themselves that that is perfectly OK for them, and God's cool with it. If they really believe that, they are in for one big surprise. They are violating every principle in the Bible every time they do so.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
7,734
4,203
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#79
It is always a non-starter to attempt to justify amoral behavior by the country's leaders today by tossing out the false dichotomy of "well, we did bad things in the past." Yes, we certainly did. And so has every single other country. The United States didn't corner the market on bad behavior. Every country has blood on it's hands. I'm not responsible for any of that because I wasn't here. Neither were you, so it has no bearing on this discussion. And that does not give anyone the right to vote for people who openly advocate sin, just because the country did bad things in the past. We are doing bad things right now, and the majority of Christians in this country just don't seem to care, and that speaks directly to where their relationship with Christ is at. At the very least, people who say it's OK to vote for a candidate that advocates abortion are estranged from Christ. You cannot serve God, and advocate amoral behavior at the same time. That is not possible.

Voting for a Christian does not mean one is attempting to create a theocracy. That is another rabbit trail. A Christian is supposed to vote for people who have good moral character. Spiritually, that is a simple no-brainer. Logically, everyone should know that amoral people do not make good leaders. They are incapable of being good leaders if they are amoral. I simply cannot wrap my head around the concept that someone who claims that Jesus is their Savior, and claims to now be a new creation in Christ can also walk into a polling place and cast a vote for a candidate that advocates abortion and tell themselves that that is perfectly OK for them, and God's cool with it. If they really believe that, they are in for one big surprise. They are violating every principle in the Bible every time they do so.
Well, when has any leader been of good moral character?
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
173
93
28
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#80
So really no Christian should have ever vote for a President, because in reality it is always been a vote for evil. So while you champion abortion, which I find abhorrent as well, the USA has much historical blood on its hands apart from abortion.
That Mr. Cobalt is my point.
That statement is false all day long. Not every leader in the country's history was evil. Many of them were, but certainly not all. Even if the statement were true, moral relativism doesn't work for a Christian, on any level. "Well, they did bad things in the past, so it just doesn't matter if we vote for people who do bad things now." Yes, it certainly does matter. The country gets both what it earns, and deserves. When you vote for people who are going to lead the country, you are supposed to raise the bar, not lower it. But for reasons I cannot fathom, in the last couple of decades I have encountered the mind-numbing attitude that since they are politicians, we should lower our expectations, and they are all flawed, so it doesn't matter who you vote for. If you are voting for a person who has declared loudly and often that they are amoral, one should not be surprised when they mess the country up. You can't lead if you are amoral. Just the fact of being amoral means you are concerned with self and no one else. So you are not going to be thinking about others as you stumble your way through office concerned only about your own wants and needs. The country is now severely messed up because of this attitude. "Don't expect anything out of politicians." Don't expect anything out of them, and nothing is what you will get. Vote amoral people into office and you just continue to get more and more moral decay, which is exactly what we see in real time, right now. And the Christians in this country have to accept responsibility for a large part of this mess, because they made it possible through some really poor attitudes when it comes to politics. They seem to have left Jesus at home when they went out to vote.