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I'm saying what I said and not what you said I'm saying.
I'm saying his homosexual desires weren't the sin prior to acting on them. The second he decided to live "his true self" and act on his desires (by thought or action), is the second he is sinning.
Perfect comparison: A married man still has sexual desires for women even after he is married. If he dwells (lusts) on women other than his wife, he is then sinning. His sexual desires for them is not the issue... it's entertaining them by thought and/or action.
This is pretty basic stuff.
I'm saying his homosexual desires weren't the sin prior to acting on them. The second he decided to live "his true self" and act on his desires (by thought or action), is the second he is sinning.
Perfect comparison: A married man still has sexual desires for women even after he is married. If he dwells (lusts) on women other than his wife, he is then sinning. His sexual desires for them is not the issue... it's entertaining them by thought and/or action.
This is pretty basic stuff.
Did you read his letter out of curiosity?
If you did, you'd remember that he acted straight because he was raised to believe that homosexuality was wrong in the eyes of God; it's unacceptable in Christian culture. He claims to love the Lord and so he thought that by being married and having a family he would "be fixed". Sadly, he isn't unique in this as I've known quite a few Christians who had homosexual desires do the same thing.
The man having children is virtually irrelevant to his sexual orientation. The most unattractive woman could cause a physiological reaction to a man... it doesn't mean the man is sexually attracted to her. This is even more understandable as he loves her, just not as a husband ought to love his wife. He went through the motions without actually having any heterosexual desires... He thought they would come as a result of his perseverance.
However, he gave up fighting sin and will be divorcing his wife... This is his error, not his homosexual desires that he forsaked.
If you did, you'd remember that he acted straight because he was raised to believe that homosexuality was wrong in the eyes of God; it's unacceptable in Christian culture. He claims to love the Lord and so he thought that by being married and having a family he would "be fixed". Sadly, he isn't unique in this as I've known quite a few Christians who had homosexual desires do the same thing.
The man having children is virtually irrelevant to his sexual orientation. The most unattractive woman could cause a physiological reaction to a man... it doesn't mean the man is sexually attracted to her. This is even more understandable as he loves her, just not as a husband ought to love his wife. He went through the motions without actually having any heterosexual desires... He thought they would come as a result of his perseverance.
However, he gave up fighting sin and will be divorcing his wife... This is his error, not his homosexual desires that he forsaked.
Being sexually attracted to someone isn't lusting. Dwelling/thinking and acting on sexual thoughts is lusting. As I said, do you think even Christian married men cease to be sexually attracted to women other than his wife once they are married? Come... women might love the thought of that... I have to be the bearer of bad news but it just simply isn't true.
His thoughts and actions are to be for his wife only. Finding someone sexually attractive is not a sin. lol If true, 99.99% of married men are adulterers by your standards.
We don't choose who we are attracted to, especially as adults. We either are or aren't. We have no control over that. Where we have control is our thoughts and our actions.
We don't choose who we are attracted to, especially as adults. We either are or aren't. We have no control over that. Where we have control is our thoughts and our actions.
You won't find any quote from me saying "it's alright to have a desire for a particular sin and that it won't soon lead to actions if we don't bring it to the Lord." Nor will you find that in the musician's letter. He did seek the Lord and professional help. He unfortunately gave up and convinced himself it's not a sin.
You agreed the temptation (his desires) isn't a sin though. So I'm really confused with your stance on all this.
You agreed the temptation (his desires) isn't a sin though. So I'm really confused with your stance on all this.
I don't doubt the word of God... I'm doubting you. You're not God. lol
Show me where the attraction for someone other than your wife is considered lusting in the bible. I will freely admit my error if you show me this verse.
Also, can you definitively answer my question: Do you think good Christian men only find their wives attractive?
Show me where the attraction for someone other than your wife is considered lusting in the bible. I will freely admit my error if you show me this verse.
Also, can you definitively answer my question: Do you think good Christian men only find their wives attractive?
K
Whether it is true or not is a matter of opinion. That doesn't hold true for every person and you are making a blanket statement. Consider the following article, it makes the point Im making far better than I am...
Does the Bible address sexual orientation?
It is sometimes claimed that sexual orientation is a modern concept that would have been completely foreign to the writers of scripture.But is that really true? The American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation in this way: “Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes.”[5] Notice that orientation involves a person’s enduring sexual attractions and that sexual attraction is a virtual synonym for sexual desire.[6] Thus sexual orientation is one’s persistent pattern of sexual desire/attraction toward either or both sexes.If that is the definition, then the term “orientation” does not somehow take us to a category that the Bible doesn’t address. The Bible says that our sexual desires/attractions have a moral component and that we are held accountable for them. Jesus’ remarks on the nature of heterosexual desire are a case in point:Mathew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
The word that Jesus uses for “lust” is the exact same term used in the tenth commandment’s prohibition on coveting: “You shall not desire/covet your neighbor’s wife” (Ex. 20:17; Deut. 5:21 LXX). Thus both Jesus and the tenth commandment censure not merely adulterous behavior but also the desire that precedes the behavior. The locus of such desire is the “heart.” As Jesus confirms elsewhere, adultery and every other kind of sexual immorality proceed from the heart (Mark 7:21).
The married man who experiences an adulterous lust for another woman is a man who experiences unwholesome attractions. His attraction may indeed be spontaneous and uninvited. It may indeed reflect his sexual orientation to be attracted to the opposite sex. But that married man may not appeal to his heterosexual “orientation” to absolve him of having feelings that he ought not feel. Jesus says such feelings are adultery within the heart. Likewise, a man who experiences a sexual attraction to another man may be experiencing feelings that are spontaneous and uninvited. His attraction may well reflect what he perceives to be his natural “orientation.” But that does not absolve him of having sexual feelings he ought not feel. The Bible judges such attractions as sinful lust—as coveting someone sexually. Thus the scripture does in fact speak to one’s enduring pattern of sexual attractions.
Is there a difference between desire and lust?
Sometimes it is claimed that we must make a moral distinction between mere desire and active lust—the former being morally neutral and the latter being sinful. But this is not a particularly biblical distinction. The word Jesus uses for lust in Matthew 5:28 (epithumeō) is used elsewhere in neutral and even positive ways.[7] For example, Jesus says that “many prophets and righteous men desired (epithumeō) to see what you see, and did not see it” (Matthew 13:17). The word clearly means “desire,” and in this case the desire is a good thing. Whether the desire is good (as in Matt. 13:17) or evil (as in Matt. 5:28) depends entirely on what it is a person desires. That is why the same Greek term is rendered “desire” in some texts and “lust” in others. If you desire something good, then the desire itself is good. If you desire something evil, then the desire itself is evil. Same-sex attraction is clearly a desire that God forbids. How then can we possibly treat a persistent and enduring desire for the same-sex as morally neutral? Biblically, we cannot.
The apostle Paul also addresses the propriety of same-sex desires in Romans 1:26-27. To be sure, Paul says that homosexual behavior is sinful:
Romans 1:26-27 “Women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman… men with men committing indecent acts.”
But he also says that the desires themselves are equally morally blameworthy and stand as evidence of God’s wrath against sin: “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions… and [they] burned in their desire toward one another” (Rom 1:26-27). Sexual desire that fixates on the same-sex is sinful, and that is why God’s judgment rightly falls on both desires and actions. Again, the issue is not merely sexual behavior but also one’s enduring pattern of sexual attraction.
Answering an Objection
A common objection to the foregoing goes like this: “If a person cannot control whether they have same-sex attraction, how can that attraction be considered sinful?” This objection bases moral accountability upon whether one has the ability to choose his proclivities. But this is not how the Bible speaks of sin and judgment. There are all manner of predispositions that we are born with that the Bible nevertheless characterizes as sin: pride, anger, anxiousness, just to name a few. Why would we put same-sex attraction in a different category than those other predispositions that we groan to be delivered from and that we are morally accountable for? As we mentioned above, Jesus says that all such sins proceed from the heart and that we are therefore morally accountable for them (Mark 7:21). And this assessment is in no way mitigated by the fact that we come by it naturally or were born that way.
Does the Bible address sexual orientation?
It is sometimes claimed that sexual orientation is a modern concept that would have been completely foreign to the writers of scripture.But is that really true? The American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation in this way: “Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes.”[5] Notice that orientation involves a person’s enduring sexual attractions and that sexual attraction is a virtual synonym for sexual desire.[6] Thus sexual orientation is one’s persistent pattern of sexual desire/attraction toward either or both sexes.If that is the definition, then the term “orientation” does not somehow take us to a category that the Bible doesn’t address. The Bible says that our sexual desires/attractions have a moral component and that we are held accountable for them. Jesus’ remarks on the nature of heterosexual desire are a case in point:Mathew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
The word that Jesus uses for “lust” is the exact same term used in the tenth commandment’s prohibition on coveting: “You shall not desire/covet your neighbor’s wife” (Ex. 20:17; Deut. 5:21 LXX). Thus both Jesus and the tenth commandment censure not merely adulterous behavior but also the desire that precedes the behavior. The locus of such desire is the “heart.” As Jesus confirms elsewhere, adultery and every other kind of sexual immorality proceed from the heart (Mark 7:21).
The married man who experiences an adulterous lust for another woman is a man who experiences unwholesome attractions. His attraction may indeed be spontaneous and uninvited. It may indeed reflect his sexual orientation to be attracted to the opposite sex. But that married man may not appeal to his heterosexual “orientation” to absolve him of having feelings that he ought not feel. Jesus says such feelings are adultery within the heart. Likewise, a man who experiences a sexual attraction to another man may be experiencing feelings that are spontaneous and uninvited. His attraction may well reflect what he perceives to be his natural “orientation.” But that does not absolve him of having sexual feelings he ought not feel. The Bible judges such attractions as sinful lust—as coveting someone sexually. Thus the scripture does in fact speak to one’s enduring pattern of sexual attractions.
Is there a difference between desire and lust?
Sometimes it is claimed that we must make a moral distinction between mere desire and active lust—the former being morally neutral and the latter being sinful. But this is not a particularly biblical distinction. The word Jesus uses for lust in Matthew 5:28 (epithumeō) is used elsewhere in neutral and even positive ways.[7] For example, Jesus says that “many prophets and righteous men desired (epithumeō) to see what you see, and did not see it” (Matthew 13:17). The word clearly means “desire,” and in this case the desire is a good thing. Whether the desire is good (as in Matt. 13:17) or evil (as in Matt. 5:28) depends entirely on what it is a person desires. That is why the same Greek term is rendered “desire” in some texts and “lust” in others. If you desire something good, then the desire itself is good. If you desire something evil, then the desire itself is evil. Same-sex attraction is clearly a desire that God forbids. How then can we possibly treat a persistent and enduring desire for the same-sex as morally neutral? Biblically, we cannot.
The apostle Paul also addresses the propriety of same-sex desires in Romans 1:26-27. To be sure, Paul says that homosexual behavior is sinful:
Romans 1:26-27 “Women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman… men with men committing indecent acts.”
But he also says that the desires themselves are equally morally blameworthy and stand as evidence of God’s wrath against sin: “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions… and [they] burned in their desire toward one another” (Rom 1:26-27). Sexual desire that fixates on the same-sex is sinful, and that is why God’s judgment rightly falls on both desires and actions. Again, the issue is not merely sexual behavior but also one’s enduring pattern of sexual attraction.
Answering an Objection
A common objection to the foregoing goes like this: “If a person cannot control whether they have same-sex attraction, how can that attraction be considered sinful?” This objection bases moral accountability upon whether one has the ability to choose his proclivities. But this is not how the Bible speaks of sin and judgment. There are all manner of predispositions that we are born with that the Bible nevertheless characterizes as sin: pride, anger, anxiousness, just to name a few. Why would we put same-sex attraction in a different category than those other predispositions that we groan to be delivered from and that we are morally accountable for? As we mentioned above, Jesus says that all such sins proceed from the heart and that we are therefore morally accountable for them (Mark 7:21). And this assessment is in no way mitigated by the fact that we come by it naturally or were born that way.
K
Continuing....
My conclusion is that if sexual orientation is one’s enduring pattern of sexual attraction, then the Bible teaches both same-sex behavior and same-sex orientation to be sinful.[9] If this is true, there are numerous pastoral implications. I will mention just two:
1. This truth ought to inform how brothers and sisters in Christ wage war against same-sex attraction. Sin is not merely what we do. It is also who we are. As so many of our confessions have it, we are sinners by nature and by choice.[10] All of us are born with an orientation toward sin in all its varieties. Homosexual orientation is but one manifestation of our common experience of indwelling sin—indeed of the mind set on the flesh (Rom. 7:23; 8:7). For that reason, the Bible teaches us to war against both the root and the fruit of sin. In this case, homosexual orientation is the root, and homosexual behavior is the fruit. The Spirit of God aims to transform both (Rom. 8:13).
If same-sex attraction were morally benign, there would be no reason to repent of it. But the Bible never treats sexual attraction to the same sex as a morally neutral state. Jesus says all sexual immorality is fundamentally a matter of the heart. Thus it will not do simply to avoid same sex behavior. The ordinary means of grace must be aimed at the heart as well. Prayer, the preaching of the word, and the fellowship of the saints must all be aimed at the Holy Spirit’s renewal of the inner man (2 Cor. 4:16). It is to be a spiritual transformation that puts to death the deeds of the body by a daily renewal of the mind (Rom. 8:13; 12:2). As John Owen has famously said, “Be killing sin or it will be killing you.”[11]
This is not to say that Christians who experience same-sex attraction will necessarily be freed from those desires completely in this life. Many such Christians report partial or complete changes in their orientation after conversion—sometimes all at once, but more often over a period of months and years. But those cases are not the norm. There are a great many who also report ongoing struggles with same-sex attraction.[12] But that does not lessen the responsibility for them to fight those desires as long as they persist, no matter how natural those desires may feel.
2. This truth ought to strengthen our love and compassion for brothers and sisters who experience same-sex attraction. For many of them, same sex attraction is something they have experienced for as long as they can remember. There is no obvious pathology for their attractions. The attractions are what they are even though they may be quite unwelcome. It is naïve to think that these people are all outside of the church. No, they are among us. They are us. They have been baptized, have been attending the Lord’s Table with us, and have been fighting the good fight in what is sometimes a very lonely struggle. They believe what the Bible says about their sexuality, but their struggle is nevertheless difficult.
Is Homosexual Orientation Sinful? – Canon and Culture
We are to encourage one another in our struggles. But we do not condone homosexuality, as the man in the OP does. As you have said,he gave up the struggle. Hopefully he will stop making excuses for his sin and come back to the right path. This article stuck the right balance to me. But desire leads to actions if we do not bring them under control.
I suggest you read Matthew 5:27-29, which states: "You have heard that it was said, "do NOT commit adultery". But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, better to gouge it out and throw it away for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members (body parts) should perish, and not that thy whole body be cast into hell".
To definitively answer your question, good christian men AND women do find their wives/husbands attractive. BUT, they can easily be lead to adultery by the sin of lusting after another. LUST CAUSES SIN.
To definitively answer your question, good christian men AND women do find their wives/husbands attractive. BUT, they can easily be lead to adultery by the sin of lusting after another. LUST CAUSES SIN.
M
Do you believe the bible? If you do? Then the perverted lust itself is a sin to be resisted first in thought so that the action never takes place ...and the action itself of homosexual behavior is defined in scripture as one of the most offensive atcs against God showing that a person has entered into a reprobate condition.