CIA torture report paints picture of agency out of control

[GodIsSalvation]

See if you can find any precedent for a Senate Select Committee of any kind to issue a report without holding any hearings? It is unheard of, and was entirely politically motivated. As to truth, it concludes no actionable intelligence was gleaned from EIT interrogations, whereas the intelligence community has stated many, many times over the years that this piece of information or that nugget of data obtained during EIT interrogations resulted in "X" plot being foiled, well over 20 in total. That was reiterated over the last week. Also, I question having confidence in a report issued by only one side of a committee, the other side refusing to sign off on it. IF a Republican committee next year undertakes so biased an effort, I'm sure most Democrats will be crying "Foul!" the loudest for this exact same reason.Noting again that any interrogation session from which the subject could walk away was not torture ...Which we should count as fortunate, given I'm sure some of the more extremist among the Democrats wanted to release the entire study, flawed as it obviously was given the misleading information put out in the summary.No thanks. Wikipedia is as unreliable as the Democrats on the SSC on Intelligence.Clear indication you don't watch Fox News or you would know they've devoted more airtime to the pros and cons of this report than any other network, on-air or cable. But thanks for the reply. I just don't happen to agree with your conclusions or those of the committee. No offense intended, and I hope none taken.

You can't walk away from Gitmo.

The report is true. Sooner you realize that, the sooner the problem can be fixed.

The more they try to cover it up and doll up torture with PC terms the worse it will be for the whole nation. If the GOP really wants to be the defenders of torture that's their affair, but don't wonder why crap sticks to the GOP when they put their foot directly in it.

I say it again; they ought to argue their case at the Hague where they belong.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The report is true. Sooner you realize that, the sooner the problem can be fixed.

Your declaration, nor the SSC on Intelligence's declaration, makes that so. In fact, a great number of people don't buy the report. And I note you didn't attempt to show my a precedent for the method by which this "report" was issued.

The more they try to cover it up and doll up torture with PC terms the worse it will be for the whole nation.

There is no cover up. The man who conducted the majority -- and actually, very few -- EIT interrogations is an Air Force psychologist. He's offered to testify before the SSC. They declined. Seems to me if they wanted to get to the truth, they would have welcomed his input. But they weren't interested in truth. And he has now made appearances on numerous news programs explaining what EIT is, and what it is not. The SSC is beginning to look foolish.

If the GOP really wants to be the defenders of torture that's their affair, but don't wonder why crap sticks to the GOP when they put their foot directly in it.

We'll see what sticks to who in the coming year or so.s

I say it again; they ought to argue their case at the Hague where they belong.

The Hague is an international criminal court to which the U.S., even under Obama, has declined to place itself, for good reason. It is a kangaroo court. No justice is done, only political manipulation. And no crimes were committed, so there is no reason to argue before a farce of a legal entity.

I guess, if you have nothing to provide in the way of answers to my earlier challenge, we're done here.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This report on the torture's that were going on is not a false report, and they even reported and Bush spoke out in his biography he wrote about how he knew about the torture method's being used.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Your declaration, nor the SSC on Intelligence's declaration, makes that so. In fact, a great number of people don't buy the report. And I note you didn't attempt to show my a precedent for the method by which this "report" was issued.

There is no cover up. The man who conducted the majority -- and actually, very few -- EIT interrogations is an Air Force psychologist. He's offered to testify before the SSC. They declined. Seems to me if they wanted to get to the truth, they would have welcomed his input. But they weren't interested in truth. And he has now made appearances on numerous news programs explaining what EIT is, and what it is not. The SSC is beginning to look foolish.

We'll see what sticks to who in the coming year or so.s

The Hague is an international criminal court to which the U.S., even under Obama, has declined to place itself, for good reason. It is a kangaroo court. No justice is done, only political manipulation. And no crimes were committed, so there is no reason to argue before a farce of a legal entity.

I guess, if you have nothing to provide in the way of answers to my earlier challenge, we're done here.

I have provided you with more than ample material, including the report itself. All the methods for compiling the report are found in each source. Pick and choose which one you prefer; the report itself, Feinstein's speech, or the wikipedia page. They all say the same thing. They all tell how the report was compiled.

All the sources tell about the torture performed in your and my name. I ain't cool with these GOPers and Dems doing this crap in my name. They can appear before Hague if they want to dispute their torture methods are not torture. Elsewise they'd be prudent to stop trying to play cover-up and get down to fixing this problem.

 

[Human]

Your declaration, nor the SSC on Intelligence's declaration, makes that so. In fact, a great number of people don't buy the report. And I note you didn't attempt to show my a precedent for the method by which this "report" was issued.

There is no cover up. The man who conducted the majority -- and actually, very few -- EIT interrogations is an Air Force psychologist. He's offered to testify before the SSC. They declined. Seems to me if they wanted to get to the truth, they would have welcomed his input. But they weren't interested in truth. And he has now made appearances on numerous news programs explaining what EIT is, and what it is not. The SSC is beginning to look foolish.

We'll see what sticks to who in the coming year or so.s

The Hague is an international criminal court to which the U.S., even under Obama, has declined to place itself, for good reason. It is a kangaroo court. No justice is done, only political manipulation. And no crimes were committed, so there is no reason to argue before a farce of a legal entity.

I guess, if you have nothing to provide in the way of answers to my earlier challenge, we're done here.

Your picture betrays where your allegiances lie. Of all the avatars promoting Jesus, charity, nonviolence, compassion, joy, belevolence, you chose a meme defending the American military. So it figures you'd do your best to defend it. I assume you or someone you know is a member, so you probably, naturally, fear that these tortures reflect badly on whomever you know in the military, or CIA perhaps, but the truth is that there is no 'enhanced interrogation', there's just torture dressed up in nice utilitarian names. There is no single man who commited most of the torture in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or wherever else it was commited, there's just policy, policymakers, soldiers and superiors that aren't really that bothered if a few 'ragheads' get ruffled, or shot, or beat up or forcefed anally or waterboarded, or if a few of their wives get sexually abused or have their throats slit. There's just a guy the Conservatives put forward to spout misinformation and make them look less culpable as torture condoning barbarians. There's probably also a fat paycheck in his bank account for doing it.

Of course, being a military man, or at least a staunch defendant of it, you would doubt it, you would have military defending avatars, you would call the International Court a kangaroo court. I wonder why that is? Well, last I remember, they convicted the US government of the most serious international crime a country's government can be convicted of; starting an unprovoked war of aggression. Imagine how badly that reflected on your beloved military!

Maybe it's time you woke up and realized a man can't serve two masters. Is it the military or is it 'love your enemies'?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Your picture betrays where your allegiances lie. Of all the avatars promoting Jesus, charity, nonviolence, compassion, joy, belevolence, you chose a meme defending the American military. So it figures you'd do your best to defend it. I assume you or someone you know is a member, so you probably, naturally, fear that these tortures reflect badly on whomever you know in the military, or CIA perhaps, but the truth is that there is no 'enhanced interrogation', there's just torture dressed up in nice utilitarian names. There is no single man who commited most of the torture in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or wherever else it was commited, there's just policy, policymakers, soldiers and superiors that aren't really that bothered if a few 'ragheads' get ruffled, or shot, or beat up or forcefed anally or waterboarded, or if a few of their wives get sexually abused or have their throats slit. There's just a guy the Conservatives put forward to spout misinformation and make them look less culpable as torture condoning barbarians. There's probably also a fat paycheck in his bank account for doing it.

Of course, being a military man, or at least a staunch defendant of it, you would doubt it, you would have military defending avatars, you would call the International Court a kangaroo court. I wonder why that is? Well, last I remember, they convicted the US government of the most serious international crime a country's government can be convicted of; starting an unprovoked war of aggression. Imagine how badly that reflected on your beloved military!

Maybe it's time you woke up and realized a man can't serve two masters. Is it the military or is it 'love your enemies'?

Don't be too quick to throw the military folk under the bus. Much of the military folk (at least of this generation) are not cool with this stuff. In fact they have been some of the biggest whistleblowers on government abuse in all US history. Even historically speaking it is often vets that stand up to government abuse when no one else will.

You must keep in mind it isn't the regular military folk that are carrying out most the torture. Their main job is merely to guard the facility and take orders. From what I have researched on the subject it is mostly CIA, medical staff, and "higher ups" that are conducting the tortures and interrogations. As the report outlines they have an even more secret facility within Gitmo itself which is being called COBALT which is seemingly where most the torture takes place.

In fact much of what is known about Gitmo, the torture program, the conditions therein, etc. before this report was released is the testimonies of former guards.

Here's a real interesting interview from one of the most publicly known former Gitmo guards from a year ago (he served in Gitmo in the early years of the War of Terror). I'd recommend checking out other interviews with him, there are many on youtube. This is a good one as it touches on Gitmo, torture, media and public perception, the effects of the War of Terror on the common soldiers, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0DIW6qHdlo
[video=youtube;p0DIW6qHdlo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0DIW6qHdlo[/video]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I have provided you with more than ample material, including the report itself.

The material you provided is in the report, or summarized, so really, all you've done is provide the report as evidence of its own veracity. That's a logical fallacy.

All the methods for compiling the report are found in each source.

So? If the facts aren't accurately represented, then the methods are as useless as the report.

Pick and choose which one you prefer; the report itself, Feinstein's speech, or the wikipedia page.

Please reread what I posted yesterday about Wikipedia.

They all say the same thing. They all tell how the report was compiled.

Which, again, is irrelevant to the veracity of the report, given it obviously did not actually record facts, but preconceived notions of only one side of the committee.

All the sources tell about the torture performed in your and my name.

No torture was performed in my name. There was no torture performed, period.

Iain't cool with these GOPers and Dems doing this crap in my name. They can appear before Hague if they want to dispute their torture methods are not torture. Elsewise they'd be prudent to stop trying to play cover-up and get down to fixing this problem.

Again, even Obama won't submit to the Hague, given it has no right or jurisdiction over the U.S., nor does it represent a real court of justice, but rather a court of judicial abuse and farce. So your continuing reference to it is of no use to the discussion.

An easier response form you would have been, "Yes, I guess we're done." You've offered nothing new, and no where have you offered anything useful. God bless.

Your picture betrays where your allegiances lie. Of all the avatars promoting Jesus, charity, nonviolence, compassion, joy, belevolence, you chose a meme defending the American military. So it figures you'd do your best to defend it. I assume you or someone you know is a member, so you probably, naturally, fear that these tortures reflect badly on whomever you know in the military, or CIA perhaps, but the truth is that there is no 'enhanced interrogation', there's just torture dressed up in nice utilitarian names. There is no single man who commited most of the torture in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or wherever else it was commited, there's just policy, policymakers, soldiers and superiors that aren't really that bothered if a few 'ragheads' get ruffled, or shot, or beat up or forcefed anally or waterboarded, or if a few of their wives get sexually abused or have their throats slit. There's just a guy the Conservatives put forward to spout misinformation and make them look less culpable as torture condoning barbarians. There's probably also a fat paycheck in his bank account for doing it.

Of course, being a military man, or at least a staunch defendant of it, you would doubt it, you would have military defending avatars, you would call the International Court a kangaroo court. I wonder why that is? Well, last I remember, they convicted the US government of the most serious international crime a country's government can be convicted of; starting an unprovoked war of aggression. Imagine how badly that reflected on your beloved military!

Maybe it's time you woke up and realized a man can't serve two masters. Is it the military or is it 'love your enemies'?

See my above reply. Thanks for your input, God bless.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Oops. Sorry, double post

 

[Human]

Don't be too quick to throw the military folk under the bus. Much of the military folk (at least of this generation) are not cool with this stuff. In fact they have been some of the biggest whistleblowers on government abuse in all US history. Even historically speaking it is often vets that stand up to government abuse when no one else will.

You must keep in mind it isn't the regular military folk that are carrying out most the torture. Their main job is merely to guard the facility and take orders. From what I have researched on the subject it is mostly CIA, medical staff, and "higher ups" that are conducting the tortures and interrogations. As the report outlines they have an even more secret facility within Gitmo itself which is being called COBALT which is seemingly where most the torture takes place.

In fact much of what is known about Gitmo, the torture program, the conditions therein, etc. before this report was released is the testimonies of former guards.

Here's a real interesting interview from one of the most publicly known former Gitmo guards from a year ago (he served in Gitmo in the early years of the War of Terror). I'd recommend checking out other interviews with him, there are many on youtube. This is a good one as it touches on Gitmo, torture, media and public perception, the effects of the War of Terror on the common soldiers, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0DIW6qHdlo
[video=youtube;p0DIW6qHdlo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0DIW6qHdlo[/video]

I appreciate that perspective. It's obviously something I neglected to comprehend, however, I cannot rightly defend the merits of men who would side with a secular governmentally run military whose 'higher ups' condone torture, while that same person professes to be Christian, which is by nature in service of a man who instructs ''love your enemies''. Joing the mliitary, by its very nature, is entering contractually into service of that secular government with willingness, if necessary, to kill enemies, not love them.

 

[haz]

I didn't even have to wonder who started this thread. I KNEW it was the AMerica bashing Aussie down under!

I can assure you that many of we Australians don't fit the "America bashing Aussie" label.

We just happen to be burdened with the same self-loathing, hate mongering, loopy liberal/leftists here that you find in the US and Europe, etc.

These loopy leftists always push their vile hate and deceit against any political opponents. For such their emotional attachment to the left of politics has blinded them to their own hypocrisy and deceitfulness.

Interesting to see the feigned outrage here by those on the left. When their leftist masters say jump, their followers do so with all the same hypocritical fervor of their masters. And when their political masters endorse the murder/abortion of around 3000 innocent babies per day in the USA alone, these leftist hypocrites silently accept it. Such a contradiction from leftist Christians who falsely try to portray themselves as caring when it politically suits them, yet remain heartlessly silent when it doesn't suit them.

 

[Human]

I can assure you that many of we Australians don't fit the "America bashing Aussie" label.

We just happen to be burdened with the same self-loathing, hate mongering, loopy liberal/leftists here that you find in the US and Europe, etc.

These loopy leftists always push their vile hate and deceit against any political opponents. For such their emotional attachment to the left of politics has blinded them to their own hypocrisy and deceitfulness.

Interesting to see the feigned outrage here by those on the left. When their leftist masters say jump, their followers do so with all the same hypocritical fervor of their masters. And when their political masters endorse the murder/abortion of around 3000 innocent babies per day in the USA alone, these leftist hypocrites silently accept it. Such a contradiction from leftist Christians who falsely try to portray themselves as caring when it politically suits them, yet remain heartlessly silent when it doesn't suit them.

Aside from almost this entire post being ad hominem vitriol, not all leftists support unfettered acess to abortion, and outrage is not necessary for there to be sorrow and empathy; such an assumption is an unfounded appeal to consensus ('they have no emotions, guys. Isn't that right, guys? Look how inhuman they are!') and mob-mentality. It is lacking, to be blunt.

 

[haz]

Aside from almost this entire post being ad hominem vitriol, not all leftists support unfettered acess to abortion, and outrage is not necessary for there to be sorrow and empathy; such an assumption is an unfounded appeal to consensus ('they have no emotions, guys. Isn't that right, guys? Look how inhuman they are!') and mob-mentality. It is lacking, to be blunt.

Your criticisms above apply to your position. But then the liberal/Left can never see their own contradictions and hypocrisy.

BTW, I noted in one of your posts you said we cannot serve 2 masters, asking "is it the military or love your enemies". Apart from your misusing this out of its original context, the liberal/Left's constant hate mongering and lies proves that the side of politics you follow even fails the point you tried to make in misquoting that verse.

 

[Human]

...

So, essentially, I, even though I'm a complete individual person with my own thoughts, am dcondemned by the musing condemnations you have against some other leftists' opinions?

Let me answer you:

Your criticisms above apply to your position.

Care to explain how?

But then the liberal/Left can never see their own contradictions and hypocrisy.

Are leftists and liberals contradictory and hyppocritical all the time? Can you prove it somehow? Is it only some of the time? Which leftists? All leftists? How far left does this generalization apply? To those who go as far as socialism, or only those who are as far left as communism? To feminist leftists or non-feminist leftists? What about leftists who don't like abortion? What about liberals who believe in capitalism?

See the problem with generalizing like that?

BTW, I noted in one of your posts you said we cannot serve 2 masters, asking "is it the military or love your enemies".

Yes. Military membership is being willing to kill your enemies. Would you agree 'love' and 'kill' are very contradictory verbs?

Apart from your misusing this out of its original context,

The context where Jesus says ''love your enemies''. I don't get how that can be taken out of context. It's a flat three word instruction. Love your enemies.

the liberal/Left's constant hate mongering and lies proves that the side of politics you follow even fails the point you tried to make in misquoting that verse.

That didn't even make sense.

 

[JustAnotherUser]

It's never surprising. Judge a nation by how its leaders treat their men. You'll find that at least 95% of the world is corrupted and as brutal as it is, it's not new under the sun (or lack of). The sad part is that we trust our lives to the very people who cause the wars and corruption while claiming that they want justice and determine what our rights are.

 

[haz]

Care to explain how?

Your the one who made the charges against my post to pennEd regarding his concerns that Australians were America bashers. As you responded to my post to pennED in typical abusive leftist style, then I responded by pointing out your hypocrisy.

Are leftists and liberals contradictory and hyppocritical all the time? Can you prove it somehow? Is it only some of the time? Which leftists? All leftists? How far left does this generalization apply? To those who go as far as socialism, or only those who are as far left as communism? To feminist leftists or non-feminist leftists? What about leftists who don't like abortion? What about liberals who believe in capitalism?

See the problem with generalizing like that?

Hmm... that could take volumes showing how hypocritical and deceitful the left are.

Here in Australia the further Left they go the worse they become.
The Left are represented by the Labor party, then further left is the Greens.

For example in Australia we have the tax funded ABC and SBS media outlets. The ABC on its own is the largest media outlet in Australia. To use that as an example of hypocrisy and deceit of the Left, these media outlets are dominated by left wing journalists (voting Labor party or Greens). The charter for the ABC and SBS requires that they are to remain impartial and to offer balance in their media presentations. Instead we have seen the ABC and SBS has consistently been ignoring it's charter obligations and pushing it's leftist bias in its presentations.

Now in spite of having a currently serving conservative government, the ABC and SBS blatantly continue with their leftist bias. The Left here is so powerful that it would be far too difficult to address the fraudulent use of our taxes for a media outlet that refuses to abide by its charter for impartiality and balance.

Interestingly, leftist of all types, being either deceitful or deluded, actually claim there is no political bias from within these media outlets controlled by fellow leftists. Some, however, are honest enough to admit the obvious bias.

As for our commercially owned media outlets, they are roughly about evenly split in terms of right or left wing bias. But at the last election the Labor party complained that the right wing bias of the conservative media was unacceptable, in spite of the fact that the Left controls most of the media here.

I understand the BBC is just as bad as our ABC here.

I could go on and on with many more examples, but don't want to be boring.

Military membership is being willing to kill your enemies. Would you agree 'love' and 'kill' are very contradictory verbs?

I would agree. I would not want a job like they have.

The context where Jesus says ''love your enemies''. I don't get how that can be taken out of context. It's a flat three word instruction. Love your enemies.

I was referring your "Maybe it's time you woke up and realized a man can't serve two masters".
The scripture for that is Matt 6:24
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

You then added the choice whether it's the military or love your enemies. I then pointed out that you used this out of context.

That didn't even make sense.

In other words, the Left feign compassion/love, yet with all their trademark hate they clearly fail to measure to the love that you yourself are proposing in your quote to love our enemies.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I appreciate that perspective. It's obviously something I neglected to comprehend ...

Just as you fail to comprehend that EITs are not torture. We'll just have to live with that about you, I guess. God bless.

 

[Thailand_Paul]

To put it succinctly for those who think it's justified and that those opposed are "American Bashing hate mongers"

 

[Utah]

What part of 'love your enemies' reads 'waterboard your enemies, deprive your enemies of sleep, beat your enemies, cause your enemies to die of hypothermia, rape your enemies wives and then slit their throats'? I can't think of anything more antithetical to Jesus of Nazareth's teachings.

I'm not even Christian and I find your comments utterly disgusting, vile and indefensible. Would you like to be kept awake for over 200 hours by repetitive loud, thrash-metal, or strobe lights, or cold water shock? Would you like to be force-fed through your anus without medical necessity? Would you like to be thrown on the ground, hands tied behind your back, cloth over your face then made to feel like you are drowning?

Many of these people weren't even convicted of crimes. They didn't have a trial. No hearing. No rights. No anything. Some weren't even valid terror suspects. Seems some of you Americans think you can just lift a man from the ground, accuse him of fairytales, then throw him in a dungeon to be tortured or die, and still call yourselves the World's Big Brother, or worse, 'Christian nation'.

Jesus, I imagine, would be sick at the connotation.

Exaggerate much? Our agents raping our enemies' wives then slitting throats? That's hysterical! LOL. Source, please.

200 hours without sleep? More humor! LOL. Source please.

If your family was saved by the tactics you mentioned you'd be singing a different tune, but in fact, your family members have been kept safe by tactics less extreme than most fraternity hazing traditions.

You find my comments utterly disgusting, vile and indefensible? You deny Jesus' divinity therefore your views mean nothing to me. I promise I'll let you know if I ever care what you think of me. The only reason I'm even responding to you is to defend the integrity of my nation's servants that help keep innocent people safe. And if any servants are reading this, I say thank you for all that you do.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Exaggerate much? Our agents raping our enemies' wives then slitting throats? That's hysterical! LOL. Source, please.

200 hours without sleep? More humor! LOL. Source please.

If your family was saved by the tactics you mentioned you'd be singing a different tune, but in fact, your family members have been kept safe by tactics less extreme than most fraternity hazing traditions.

You find my comments utterly disgusting, vile and indefensible? You deny Jesus' divinity therefore your views mean nothing to me. I promise I'll let you know if I ever care what you think of me. The only reason I'm even responding to you is to defend the integrity of my nation's servants that help keep innocent people safe. And if any servants are reading this, I say thank you for all that you do.

So are you trying to say that our Lord Jesus would have supported these tactic's of torture used on these individuals.
If you do I suggest you go back and reread all that He said in the gospel books, and not go by the mosaic laws of the OT that we are not under any more.
Lord Jesus says love, forgiveness, and to show mercy and do good to them.
Nowhere does He say it is acceptable to show the same evil tactic's of torture that others use. For tactic's of torture are done out of anger and hatred, which is not the way the Lord wants us to live.

 

[Utah]

So are you trying to say that our Lord Jesus would have supported these tactic's of torture used on these individuals.
If you do I suggest you go back and reread all that He said in the gospel books, and not go by the mosaic laws of the OT that we are not under any more.
Lord Jesus says love, forgiveness, and to show mercy and do good to them.
Nowhere does He say it is acceptable to show the same evil tactic's of torture that others use. For tactic's of torture are done out of anger and hatred, which is not the way the Lord wants us to live.

I never said anything of the sort and I will not allow you to twist my words. Look at my first post in this thread and you'll see exactly what I think regarding these tactics and God.

You liberals make me laugh. You're apologists for our enemies, always coddling and forgiving them for killing innocent people who have no dog in any fight yet you curse the very people who keep our enemies in check. So some terrorists that would love nothing more than to kill you, infidel, were made a bit uncomfortable, I couldn't care less; lives were saved. All the while you're safe enough to worship Christ and type your thoughts here in this thread in part thanks to our public servants.