CIA torture report paints picture of agency out of control

[kennethcadwell]

I never said anything of the sort and I will not allow you to twist my words. Look at my first post in this thread and you'll see exactly what I think regarding these tactics and God.

You liberals make me laugh. You're apologists for our enemies, always coddling and forgiving them for killing innocent people who have no dog in any fight yet you curse the very people who keep our enemies in check. So some terrorists that would love nothing more than to kill you, infidel, were made a bit uncomfortable, I couldn't care less; lives were saved. All the while you're safe enough to worship Christ and type your thoughts here in this thread in part thanks to our public servants.

The fact is I go by what our Lord said we are to act, and not how our government, other people, personal feelings, or let hatred cloud my judgments. Imprison yes I am all for that, question them yes again, use barbaric torture methods no I am not for that. Lord Jesus said to forgive and have mercy on others.
I don't defend their actions one bit, but there is a big difference in defending or supporting their actions and showing love and praying for them. Which we are told to do.

 

[Thailand_Paul]

I never said anything of the sort and I will not allow you to twist my words. Look at my first post in this thread and you'll see exactly what I think regarding these tactics and God.

You liberals make me laugh. You're apologists for our enemies, always coddling and forgiving them for killing innocent people who have no dog in any fight yet you curse the very people who keep our enemies in check. So some terrorists that would love nothing more than to kill you, infidel, were made a bit uncomfortable, I couldn't care less; lives were saved. All the while you're safe enough to worship Christ and type your thoughts here in this thread in part thanks to our public servants.

With no trial and only "admissions" under extreme duress some of the victims were clearly NOT terrorists. Can't you read your own county's report? Or you just don't care because YOOO-ESSSS-AAAAAYYY is the world PO-lice and outside the law in YOUR opinion.
I guess this is another of "those" "Christian" forums where bullying, aggressiveness and vitriol is allowable under the guise of "juz bein a good ol boy" and part of the "Moral majority"
For my money, you can keep your sort of "world protectin"
Good day sir.

 

[haz]

The fact is I go by what our Lord said we are to act, and not how our government, other people, personal feelings, or let hatred cloud my judgments. Imprison yes I am all for that, question them yes again, use barbaric torture methods no I am not for that. Lord Jesus said to forgive and have mercy on others.
I don't defend their actions one bit, but there is a big difference in defending or supporting their actions and showing love and praying for them. Which we are told to do.

Those in government and the military etc are not Christians who trust in God. So why are you arguing that somehow they should be just like a Christian who totally puts their trust in God? That's like expecting political/military leaders to walk on the water as Jesus did.

The government and military are acting in the interests of saving lives by gaining information from terrorists who seek to kill us. They are not acting out of hate as you ignorantly suggest (it's the likes of ISIS and the Taliban who act out of hate).

I suggest you look to your own walk instead of condemning the military etc for doing what they currently understand is best to protect us. If you want to do something to make positive changes then I suggest you preach the gospel so that more people might be saved. That would be a better way to show whether you truly love and care for others.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

For anyone still on the fence here is probably the best speech regarding this specific issues surrounding torture and the report itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7qsQDWVPU
[video=youtube;wR7qsQDWVPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7qsQDWVPU[/video]

From Senator John McCain. McCain is a well-known Republican, and is an "old guard" Republican at that. I don't oft find myself agreeing with McCain, but on this specific issue there is no one in the whole of US Federal government more qualified or familiar with these specific issues. McCain was tortured himself as a young man in the infamous Hanoi Hilton. The video is not new, it was posted to youtube a bit over a week ago. John McCain sets this issue straight and I'll let his comments serve as my own last thoughts on this specifc topic.

 

[kennethcadwell]

For anyone still on the fence here is probably the best speech regarding this specific issues surrounding torture and the report itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7qsQDWVPU
[video=youtube;wR7qsQDWVPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7qsQDWVPU[/video]

From Senator John McCain. McCain is a well-known Republican, and is an "old guard" Republican at that. I don't oft find myself agreeing with McCain, but on this specific issue there is no one in the whole of US Federal government more qualified or familiar with these specific issues. McCain was tortured himself as a young man in the infamous Hanoi Hilton. The video is not new, it was posted to youtube a bit over a week ago. John McCain sets this issue straight and I'll let his comments serve as my own last thoughts on this specifc topic.

I am glad you said that part I highlighted, because even if he may make some good points every great once in awhile.
For every dog has it day, but McCain has been the most war happy individual I have ever seen. This man wants to go to war with a country pretty much for just looking at the U.S. wrong. I am so glad this man did not when the election when he ran for president.

 

[Utah]

The fact is I go by what our Lord said we are to act, and not how our government, other people, personal feelings, or let hatred cloud my judgments. Imprison yes I am all for that, question them yes again, use barbaric torture methods no I am not for that. Lord Jesus said to forgive and have mercy on others.
I don't defend their actions one bit, but there is a big difference in defending or supporting their actions and showing love and praying for them. Which we are told to do.

I have said the following to a few people on this site and now I say it to you: Its easy to see that you have a good heart, and trust me, my brother, I want nothing more than to have love and peace reign supremely, but at this point in time its simply not the case. I wouldn't call our treatment of our enemies barbaric torture, with respect, that's a huge exaggeration. Like I said, its the same thing as fraternity hazing, and yes, there is indeed mercy there compared to how things used to be since the dawn of civilization.

As far as loving our enemies, I pray with a fervent heart that God will open their hearts to His majesty in Jesus Christ, that they may have salvation and rejoice forever. I usually throw out a number. "God, please open the eyes and hearts of 14 people today who don't know you and you otherwise may not have opened their eyes. Please do this for their salvation as well as your happiness and glory." Sometimes the number is 17, sometimes 100, sometimes 1,000, but trust me, I pray for them.

Yet be that as it may, I have no problem making our enemies uncomfortable in order to save innocent lives. I simply do not understand how people can possibly have a problem with that. And not for nothing but people who do have a problem with it would sing a much, much different tune if their families were directly in harms way. You wouldn't allow a plot to kill your children go untested if you knew you could save their lives with a little pressure applied to their would-be killers.

In all seriousness, maybe we should have a sticky thread on this site dedicated specifically to praying for our enemies -- our nation's enemies as well as our personal enemies unknown to the rest of the world. I'd personally visit that thread everyday and lift up everyone's prayers.

 

[Utah]

With no trial and only "admissions" under extreme duress some of the victims were clearly NOT terrorists. Can't you read your own county's report? Or you just don't care because YOOO-ESSSS-AAAAAYYY is the world PO-lice and outside the law in YOUR opinion.
I guess this is another of "those" "Christian" forums where bullying, aggressiveness and vitriol is allowable under the guise of "juz bein a good ol boy" and part of the "Moral majority"
For my money, you can keep your sort of "world protectin"
Good day sir.

Hate much? LOL!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Those in government and the military etc are not Christians who trust in God. So why are you arguing that somehow they should be just like a Christian who totally puts their trust in God? That's like expecting political/military leaders to walk on the water as Jesus did.

The government and military are acting in the interests of saving lives by gaining information from terrorists who seek to kill us. They are not acting out of hate as you ignorantly suggest (it's the likes of ISIS and the Taliban who act out of hate).

I suggest you look to your own walk instead of condemning the military etc for doing what they currently understand is best to protect us. If you want to do something to make positive changes then I suggest you preach the gospel so that more people might be saved. That would be a better way to show whether you truly love and care for others.

You can justify however you want, the the fact of the matter hatred plays a part in torture methods.
And I know where my walk stands, and the bible clearly says you can not support the sinful actions of others. If you do then you take part in that sin, by defending it. So you say the people in government and the military are not Christian, then you go and talk like you defend what they did. This would me you are defending the works of satan.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I have said the following to a few people on this site and now I say it to you: Its easy to see that you have a good heart, and trust me, my brother, I want nothing more than to have love and peace reign supremely, but at this point in time its simply not the case. I wouldn't call our treatment of our enemies barbaric torture, with respect, that's a huge exaggeration. Like I said, its the same thing as fraternity hazing, and yes, there is indeed mercy there compared to how things used to be since the dawn of civilization.

As far as loving our enemies, I pray with a fervent heart that God will open their hearts to His majesty in Jesus Christ, that they may have salvation and rejoice forever. I usually throw out a number. "God, please open the eyes and hearts of 14 people today who don't know you and you otherwise may not have opened their eyes. Please do this for their salvation as well as your happiness and glory." Sometimes the number is 17, sometimes 100, sometimes 1,000, but trust me, I pray for them.

Yet be that as it may, I have no problem making our enemies uncomfortable in order to save innocent lives. I simply do not understand how people can possibly have a problem with that. And not for nothing but people who do have a problem with it would sing a much, much different tune if their families were directly in harms way. You wouldn't allow a plot to kill your children go untested if you knew you could save their lives with a little pressure applied to their would-be killers.

In all seriousness, maybe we should have a sticky thread on this site dedicated specifically to praying for our enemies -- our nation's enemies as well as our personal enemies unknown to the rest of the world. I'd personally visit that thread everyday and lift up everyone's prayers.

Once again though, torture methods rather you want to justify them to not being as bad as other situations.
Are still wrong, and against the ways of the Lord our God.....

Lord Jesus words of love, forgiveness, and mercy does not say unless they do this or that, then you can wave all that out the window. To support a sinful act by others, is to take part and be co-owner of that sin. The bible clearly says you can not be partakers in others sins, or you defile yourself again. We are told to eliminate the anger, hatred, and lovelessness in our hearts for others. Torture rather one wants to believe and admit it or not is done out of anger and hatred....

You can not love your Lord, and hate others as the scriptures say.( 1 John 4:20 )

 

[skipp]

The ends justifies the means. That's basically what a lot of people are saying.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The ends justifies the means. That's basically what a lot of people are saying.

Which would be the problem with human nature, allow a wrongful deed to stop another wrongful deed.
To make sins justifiable, the bible says that we are not to do that.

 

[skipp]

Which would be the problem with human nature, allow a wrongful deed to stop another wrongful deed.
To make sins justifiable, the bible says that we are not to do that.

I'm not agreeing with it. Just basically summing it all up.

As Christians I don't think we should live in fear or let our fear make us act in an ungodly manner.

 

[haz]

You can justify however you want, the the fact of the matter hatred plays a part in torture methods.
And I know where my walk stands, and the bible clearly says you can not support the sinful actions of others. If you do then you take part in that sin, by defending it. So you say the people in government and the military are not Christian, then you go and talk like you defend what they did. This would me you are defending the works of satan.

How do you know hatred plays a part in torture? I can't imagine the military would be wasting their time just satisfying useless cravings of hate, as you ignorantly allege. We're you ever working in a military interrogation unit?

And I guess the same could be said about your argument. When you argue in favor of aiding/protecting a hateful enemy with relevant information that could prevent harm to others, then you are placing the lives of these others at great risk. You thus "take part in that sin", to use your own words.

Again I suggest that if you really want to prove your love for others, then preach the gospel of the kingdom. How often do you do that?

 

[Utah]

How do you know hatred plays a part in torture? I can't imagine the military would be wasting their time just satisfying useless cravings of hate, as you ignorantly allege. We're you ever working in a military interrogation unit?

And I guess the same could be said about your argument. When you argue in favor of aiding/protecting a hateful enemy with relevant information that could prevent harm to others, then you are placing the lives of these others at great risk. You thus "take part in that sin", to use your own words.

Again I suggest that if you really want to prove your love for others, then preach the gospel of the kingdom. How often do you do that?

Well said, my friend. I don't see hatred being a part of our patriots' MO, in fact, I see hatred on the part of the Left. they're enemy sympathizers who curse the very people who watch over our safety and sovereignty and do what is necessary IN ORDER TO PROTECT INNOCENT LIVES.

And you're right, if we do nothing and innocent people die, then WE are guilty of taking part in that sin. Jesus turned over the tables in the temple for righteousness' sake. Our patriots do the same in order to save lives and I don't lose one single second of sleep knowing it and praying for their well being, and my salvation is not in peril because I support their actions.

Bottom line, when the Lefts' children are in harms way, its any means necessary to protect them. Typical elitist hypocrisy.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How do you know hatred plays a part in torture? I can't imagine the military would be wasting their time just satisfying useless cravings of hate, as you ignorantly allege. We're you ever working in a military interrogation unit?

And I guess the same could be said about your argument. When you argue in favor of aiding/protecting a hateful enemy with relevant information that could prevent harm to others, then you are placing the lives of these others at great risk. You thus "take part in that sin", to use your own words.

Again I suggest that if you really want to prove your love for others, then preach the gospel of the kingdom. How often do you do that?

Well said, my friend. I don't see hatred being a part of our patriots' MO, in fact, I see hatred on the part of the Left. they're enemy sympathizers who curse the very people who watch over our safety and sovereignty and do what is necessary IN ORDER TO PROTECT INNOCENT LIVES.

And you're right, if we do nothing and innocent people die, then WE are guilty of taking part in that sin. Jesus turned over the tables in the temple for righteousness' sake. Our patriots do the same in order to save lives and I don't lose one single second of sleep knowing it and praying for their well being, and my salvation is not in peril because I support their actions.

Bottom line, when the Lefts' children are in harms way, its any means necessary to protect them. Typical elitist hypocrisy.

First of all Jesus did not say love your enemies and do good to time, unless they do this or that. Next I would ask you, do you really think that their isn't people who is corrupt in top positions of the government and military?
Lord Jesus said this about how to treat enemies;

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Second for Utah this has nothing to do about a lefty's point of view, this has to do with a biblical point of view, and not letting the ways of the world taint the Word of God. I also never said do nothing, as what I said was you can imprison them and interrogate them for information. But when it comes to torture they have gone to far, and are using tactics that the bible deems as sinful.

 

[haz]

First of all Jesus did not say love your enemies and do good to time, unless they do this or that. Next I would ask you, do you really think that their isn't people who is corrupt in top positions of the government and military?
Lord Jesus said this about how to treat enemies;

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Second for Utah this has nothing to do about a lefty's point of view, this has to do with a biblical point of view, and not letting the ways of the world taint the Word of God. I also never said do nothing, as what I said was you can imprison them and interrogate them for information. But when it comes to torture they have gone to far, and are using tactics that the bible deems as sinful.

You allege that those of us who understand why the military use various measures, such as torture, in an attempt to gain information to save lives, as "taking part in that sin" and "defending the works of satan".

Clearly you are still blind to your blatant hypocrisy as you are defending hateful terrorists who seek to withhold relevant information that could save lives.

So through your defense of hateful terrorists to be better able to withhold important information that can save the lives of those they seek to destroy, "you take part in their sin" and you're "defending the works of satan", to use your own words. I hope this will again highlight your hypocrisy enough to make you realize your error.

Do you realize now that you "take part in the sin" of these hateful terrorists who seek to kill others?
Do you realize now that you are "defending the works of satan"?

 

[Human]

How do you know hatred plays a part in torture? I can't imagine the military would be wasting their time just satisfying useless cravings of hate, as you ignorantly allege. We're you ever working in a military interrogation unit?

And I guess the same could be said about your argument. When you argue in favor of aiding/protecting a hateful enemy with relevant information that could prevent harm to others, then you are placing the lives of these others at great risk. You thus "take part in that sin", to use your own words.

Again I suggest that if you really want to prove your love for others, then preach the gospel of the kingdom. How often do you do that?

Then the fundamental question, for you it seems, is 'does the end justify the means?' Does information given under duress justify the duress? To what degree? And in what circumstance?

It seems to me that for something to be totally valid, it must apply in all circumstances. Does "love your enemies" apply in all circumstances? If not, then Jesus teaching is not entirely valid. That's the logical implication of a Christian saying 'torturing your enemies is sometimes merited'. Unless, of course, you think torturing a person can somehow be synonymous with loving them. And given your beliefs on eternal infliction of pain, it wouldn't surprise me if you did.

A horrible, grotesque idea if I ever heard one -- that torture can be loving -- but there we are.

 

[Human]

I recall Jesus calling for good men to be willing to put themselves in harms way to save others, as he did, but I do not remember him asking anyone to inflict harm to save others, as he didnt. Dying for an innocent is not the same as killing for one.

 

[Human]

I find it quote ironic that people on this thread, professed Christians, talk about defending the country by violent means, yet the same staunch violent defenders do little more than condemn it as a Sodom and Gomorrah, full of Lefty sinners, that needs destroyed violently. Yet the same Lefties and Libs you all seem to hate, the ones you equate morally with the Gamorran sodomites, shout ' dont kill, dont torture, dont hate'.

Generalizations, are of course, factionalist and silly, but perhaps in order to get you to see the nature of conflict, it's best to speak in your vernacular and point it out.

 

[haz]

Then the fundamental question, for you it seems, is 'does the end justify the means?' Does information given under duress justify the duress? To what degree? And in what circumstance?

It seems to me that for something to be totally valid, it must apply in all circumstances. Does "love your enemies" apply in all circumstances? If not, then Jesus teaching is not entirely valid. That's the logical implication of a Christian saying 'torturing your enemies is sometimes merited'. Unless, of course, you think torturing a person can somehow be synonymous with loving them. And given your beliefs on eternal infliction of pain, it wouldn't surprise me if you did.

A horrible, grotesque idea if I ever heard one -- that torture can be loving -- but there we are.

The government and military leaders are not Christians trusting in God, so we cannot expect that they will be looking to God to guide their decisions and help them. They are doing the best they know how to gain relevant information that can saves lives. And note that they do it without the brutal burning, crucifixions, beheading, rape, enslaving, etc, of children , women and men who oppose them. But those on the Left, as usual, are more concerned about the hateful terrorists than they are for the thousands of victims these terrorists attack.

Seems to me you are advocating the heartless, unloving position of not doing everything possible to protect innocent lives from a known threat. You show more concern for hateful terrorists who seek to kill us than you do for the victims they have killed and plan the kill. A "horrible, grotesque" attitude, but then again the liberal/Left are known for their heartlessness which they hide behind feigned compassion.

But for Christians, however, we trust in God and look to Him for guidance in our own circumstances. Thus we love our enemies as well as all those around us. Our own personal circumstances are where we have direct involvement to act as Jesus commanded. And when asked to take sides on issues such as in this OP, then in it's secular context it would be a very heartless Christian who would side with comforting hateful terrorists resulting in the death of innocent lives that could have been avoided.