Colorado turns down civil unions

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jack4022

Guest
#1
Just out of curiosity, why do people feel as threatened by civil unions as they do gay marriage? If civil unions are a matter of secular society why do churches and individuals feel threatened by them? I've heard on here several times from different people that they would support civil unions but not marriage. Is this view held by many christians or as in Colorado's case, is the view that civil unions between gay people are just as negative as marriage, the majority?
 
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jack4022

Guest
#2
Sry I know the article is msnbc so it'll be somewhat biased again sry :(
 
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Wesley

Guest
#3
It's a clear denial of the Constitutional right to receive equal treatment under the law from the government.

As far as why so many feel threatened, I don't know. I don't feel threatened by how someone else arranges their life.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#4
What do you mean they feel "threatened"?
 
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jack4022

Guest
#5
Like that something negative will come out of civil unions despite the fact that it would be an entirely secular process
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#6
The questions in my mind are these:

Why do we need legislation that would give those who choose to engage in a particular sexual activity special rights? Where will it go next? What happens when brothers/sisters, fathers/daughters, mothers/sons want special rights to marry because they are "consenting adults and are deeply in love with one another"? Will the adultery "minority" insist upon legalized polygomy?

Not everyone who is opposed to this is a christian. Some are very concerned about "minorities" being recognized/redefined as a group with a particular sexual preference. Will necrophiliacs and pedophiles also become minorities and be granted special rights? Can we deny them special rights just because their preferences are illegal when certain homosexual practices are also still illegal in some countries/states? What happens then to those who are TRULY minorities? Do they get lost in the shuffle?

Perhaps the threat you are referring to is not actually about a particular group of people, but rather society as a whole.
 
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jack4022

Guest
#7
We're not asking for special rights, we're asking to have access to the same legal rights as heterosexuals. As for the argument of polygamy, pedophelia, ect, those are separate issues that each require separate consideration by either a direct vote by the people or an indirect vote via elected representatives. My question was if civil unions are a totally secular matter and do not involve the church in any way, would u be willing to support them or not?
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#8
Your last post almost made my point, but I will go further nonetheless. I don't know how much you know about the law, but there is a danger in setting a legal precedent, particularly one that, at some point, may initiate a constitutional amendment. You are correct. They most definitely ARE other legislative matters to be considered, however implausible they may seem to you at this point in time. The reason they are illegal now is that someone was actually doing them. They still do. We don't make laws forbidding things that don't exist, do we? And if this legislation passes, what's to keep the other sexual preferences you named as demanding the same special rights, using the homosexual agenda as a precedent? It seems that one's vision would have to be incredibly limited not to ponder that legal possibility. But I'm thinking that's exactly what the lobbyists for this particular agenda are counting on...limited vision.

And as long as homosexuality is the only sexual preference that may be legally recognized as a minority at some point in the future, in my book that's special rights, not equal rights, as there are heterosexuals who also have sexual preferences that are presently illegal.

I read back through my post and saw no reference to the Church, so I'm not certain of the basis of your last question. I didn't see that question in your initial post, but as I said in my post, opposition is not limited to matters of faith, but matters of precedent, as is mine. Yes, I am a christian, but since your question appeared to be legal rather than spiritual in nature, I have intentionally elected to address it as such.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#9
It's a clear denial of the Constitutional right to receive equal treatment under the law from the government.

As far as why so many feel threatened, I don't know. I don't feel threatened by how someone else arranges their life.
It's not really a denial of equal treatment under the law. Anyone that chooses to enter into a marriage with a member of the opposite sex is accorded certain benefits by the government. Homosexuals have just as much of a right to do that or not do that as I do.

Just because they may not be attracted to the opposite sex does not mean that the law needs to be tailored to support them. It'd be like me demanding maternity leave and when I'm denied it I claim that the government is not giving me equal treatment under the law.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#10
"tailored to support them."

Exactly, SantoSubito. I'm heterosexual, but if I was odd enough to want to marry my brother/sister/dad/mom/dog/dead gramma, I couldn't.
 
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Crossfire

Guest
#11
Because we live in a nation which prides itself on equality for all of it's residents (of course we all know that is far from reality), myself and many Christians that I know have no problem with homosexual couples filing jointly on their taxes, carrying the other on their insurance, allowing their partner to be their beneficiary, etc. All of this can be accomplished through Civil Unions.

However, for most homosexuals, gay marriage is not about equal rights. It's about using the government to force others to accept something that their religion teaches is morally unacceptable. In doing so, the homosexual sexual agenda is pressuring the government to violate the first amendment right to freedom of religion for many Americans regardless of what religion they believe. This is why Gay Marriages must never be allowed which is why Civil Unions are the only way that homosexuals will get equal rights without violating the rights of others.

Unfortunately, because of the "all or nothing" mentality of many homosexuals, many states are being forced to take Civil Unions off of the negociating table.

Pretty cut & dry....
 
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Wesley

Guest
#12
The questions in my mind are these:

Why do we need legislation that would give those who choose to engage in a particular sexual activity special rights?
We're not. The 14th Amendment of he Constitution asserts that every American has the right to equal treatment under the law:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
That is the only right under consideration. Marriage is a legal privilege, not a right.

Where will it go next? What happens when brothers/sisters, fathers/daughters, mothers/sons want special rights to marry because they are "consenting adults and are deeply in love with one another"?
Slippery-slope argument. Do 50% of Americans support the privilege of incestuous marriage? No.

Will the adultery "minority" insist upon legalized polygomy?
I personally think that if people want to engage in polyamory, it's none of my business.

Not everyone who is opposed to this is a christian.
The vast majority are.

Some are very concerned about "minorities" being recognized/redefined as a group with a particular sexual preference.
I've never heard of this. Can you link to a reputable source? I'd like to read what they're about.

Will necrophiliacs and pedophiles also become minorities and be granted special rights?
1) As noted above, no one is pushing for "special rights"; the right to equal treatment under the law already exists.
2) Neither dead folk nor minors have legal standing to enter into contracts (which is what marriage is, legally), so this concern of yours is nugatory. Neither can give legal consent.

Can we deny them special rights just because their preferences are illegal when certain homosexual practices are also still illegal in some countries/states?
See above, regarding legal consent, for your answer to this, too.

What happens then to those who are TRULY minorities? Do they get lost in the shuffle?
Are you arguing that gay people aren't truly a minority?

Perhaps the threat you are referring to is not actually about a particular group of people, but rather society as a whole.
I don't see how permitting gay marriage between consenting adults threatens anyone.

It's not really a denial of equal treatment under the law. Anyone that chooses to enter into a marriage with a member of the opposite sex is accorded certain benefits by the government. Homosexuals have just as much of a right to do that or not do that as I do.
A Hobson's Choice is not equal treatment. You are asking one person to act against their very nature.

Let me ask you this: did you choose to be heterosexual? Could you decide to enter into a gay relationship?

Do you think it's safe to assume that you are unique in feeling that your sexuality is an innate part of you?

Just because they may not be attracted to the opposite sex does not mean that the law needs to be tailored to support them. It'd be like me demanding maternity leave and when I'm denied it I claim that the government is not giving me equal treatment under the law.
1) The 14th Amendment is existing law. The only thing being demanded is its application to all citizens. That seems fair to me. No one is "tailoring" anything, except insofar as laws have to be passed to force the states to enforce laws that have already been adopted (the 14th Amendment).
2) The comparison to maternity leave is inapt because while not all humans have a uterus, all humans have loving relationships. So long as the government recognizes romantic unions, the 14th Amendment requires that it recognize them without regard to biological considerations like the race or gender of the participants.

However, for most homosexuals, gay marriage is not about equal rights. It's about using the government to force others to accept something that their religion teaches is morally unacceptable. In doing so, the homosexual sexual agenda is pressuring the government to violate the first amendment right to freedom of religion for many Americans regardless of what religion they believe. This is why Gay Marriages must never be allowed which is why Civil Unions are the only way that homosexuals will get equal rights without violating the rights of others.
I would vote against any such requirement myself. A church is a private organization and entitled to sanctify or refuse to sanctify relationships as it sees fit.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#13
We're not. The 14th Amendment of he Constitution asserts that every American has the right to equal treatment under the law: Americans, yes. Can you post the part where sexual preferences are given equal treatment under the law? I just googled that amendment and I don't see it. Could you please post and highlight that part?


That is the only right under consideration. And you can guarantee that it won't once the legal precedent has been set?

Marriage is a legal privilege, not a right. How did "marriage" become part of this conversation? That's an entirely different issue. The topic of this thread is legalizing same sex civil unions, not marriage. The terms are not interchangeable, legally or otherwise.

Slippery-slope argument. Do 50% of Americans support the privilege of incestuous marriage? No. If 50% of Americans supported it, would that make it okay? Please remember that, according to your own stat here (which I see no support for), if 50% of Americans support gay civil unions, that means that 50% do not, right? Slippery indeed...



I personally think that if people want to engage in polyamory, it's none of my business. No surprises here.


Not everyone who is opposed to this is a christian.

The vast majority are. Probably, but why do you suppose that is?

Some are very concerned about "minorities" being recognized/redefined as a group with a particular sexual preference.
I've never heard of this. Can you link to a reputable source? I'd like to read what they're about.


I've never heard of the 14th Amendment granting sexual preferences equal rights or that sexual preference qualifies one as a legal minority either. I'd like to read that. Are all sexual preferences endowed in this way or just homosexuality? If there are others, I'd like to read that too.
I outlined it above and I'm one of the people who feel that way, so I'd say talking to a direct source would be pretty reliable, wouldn't you? What more would you like to know?


1) As noted above, no one is pushing for "special rights"; the right to equal treatment under the law already exists. Disagree, but I don't like to be redundant.

2) Neither dead folk nor minors have legal standing to enter into contracts (which is what marriage is, legally), so this concern of yours is nugatory. Neither can give legal consent.

Actually, dead people do have legal standing. It's call probate law. However, where did I say that marriage would be the special rights they might want? Again...*sigh* (and I apologize for repeating myself. I really hate that..) this thread is about civil unions, not marriage.

See above, regarding legal consent, for your answer to this, too. Not applicable.

Are you arguing that gay people aren't truly a minority? Are you saying that a sexual preference qualifies as a minority?
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#14
A Hobson's Choice is not equal treatment. You are asking one person to act against their very nature
.

Sure it is as far as marriage rights go homosexuals have the same rights I do.

Let me ask you this: did you choose to be heterosexual? Could you decide to enter into a gay relationship?
A combination of factors led to me being heterosexual hormone levels in the womb, my early upbringing, and so on. and sure I could decide to enter into a relationship if I wanted to.

1) The 14th Amendment is existing law. The only thing being demanded is its application to all citizens. That seems fair to me. No one is "tailoring" anything, except insofar as laws have to be passed to force the states to enforce laws that have already been adopted (the 14th Amendment).
I don't even see how the federal government would have the authority to pass such laws in the first place. Marriage is a state issue and resides firmly in the states control under the 10th Amendment.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#15
Jack...why are you here at CC? I am guessing, based on your wording--"We're not asking for special rights..." that you are gay. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

I am honestly asking if you have come to a Christian website to seek the Lord. If so--welcome with all my heart and may the Knowledge of who He is be yours!
If not...I guess I wonder, why are you here?

Thanks ~ellie
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#16
When individuals come into a christian forum to discuss matters of law, and especially when it appears they are not believers, it seems important to have rational, logical discussions. However, since this is clearly a christian forum and labeled as such, it would seem unreasonable to enter and balk at a christian perspective regarding a thing.

Christians are not without compassion. I know of no other words that sum up the commandments given to us by Christ than loving compassion. Informed christians also recognize that not all who promote this agenda are bullies and masters of deception (as many of their followers have also been deceived), and that not all who claim to be christians truly are and some are capable of extreme hate and violence. Some of us have friends/loved ones who engage in homosexual lifestyles, as well as other lifestyles that are contrary to our faith, and we have protected them (even in these forums) from those who seek to abuse them.

Christians are not strangers to abuse and bullying. There are times when even the most compassionate among us become tired of false/twisted information being shoved down our throats, such as our kids not being able to pray in their schools, that sexual perversions qualify for legal minority status nationwide in the USA, and that sin does not lead to greater sin (we clearly know it does; not only on a personal level, but on a societal level as well). The mockery and presumption that we are all ignorant hillbillies because we don’t buy the garbage we are spoonfed by the media also becomes tedious.

As a christian female cop, trust me when I say that I know what it’s like to be mocked, abused and physically attacked without provocation. And as a widow, I know how it feels to not to be able to be with the love of your life as husband and wife. I’m also not a stranger to sexual temptations forbidden by scripture. Doesn’t mean it’s okay for me to give into it. It’s a choice.

Those who have posted here regarding matters that are contrary to scripture appear to be intelligent, respectful individuals in many ways. Even though we strongly disagree, my prayers and compassion are with you.
 
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jack4022

Guest
#17
I'm here to learn more about christianity and the christian experience. I think it's important for me to learn about other people whose ideas are different than my own. I was only curious about what the general stance on civil unions was. I also don't expect every christian to agree on every issue I was just curious as to what the majority of christians think
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#18
that's cool, jack

hope you stick around :)
 
Jul 25, 2005
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#19
I hate these threads. You know, the kind where an argument is already so thoroughly argued that by the time you intervene, all your points have been made to which you question the world's need of your existence in the first place.

All I will give is a friendly word of warning to a few of our friends on here. Our great liberal experiments are built upon pre-liberal Christian suppositions. It is important to keep this in mind when going forward.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
6,031
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#20
If you look at the history behind the 14th amendment and the equal protection clause that is quoted so often to support either civil unions or gay marriage, one would readily recognize that those who pushed the 14th amendment through would never have dreamed that it would be used in this way. The 14th amendment was added to our constitution at the end of the civil war, and was forced down the throats of the states of the former Confederacy. Basically the southern states at the time were governed by Union appointees and in order to be able to self govern again they HAD to ratify the 13th and 14th amendments.

The 14th amendment was written in response to laws passed by several of the Confederate states that restricted the rights of former slaves to own property and likewise gave more severe criminal penalties to former slaves. In other words, it was written to keep states from penalizing people based on race. The authors of this amendment would have never dreamed of it being misconstrued to protect a behavior that would have resulted in severe criminal penalties at that time.