Federal Court Bans American Flag But Allows Mexican Flag At U.S. Public Schools

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A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#21
Two other points to note:

1. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has the highest record of all district courts for their decisions being overturned or amended by the Supreme Court due to their wildly liberal bias. It's so bad they've earned the nickname the "Ninth Circus" in the conservative popular literature. The students, their parents, and their attorneys are going to appeal the Ninth Circus's decision to the U.S. Supreme Court. It isn't over yet by a long shot.

Read: U.S. Supreme Court looks over 9th Circuit's shoulder - Los Angeles Times

2. The ACLU sided with the students sending a letter of protest to Morgan Hills Unified School District and providing a staff attorney to assist the students stating:

"The letter points out that students' wearing of the American flag wouldn't have been controversial but for the interest of other students in celebrating their Mexican heritage on Cinco de Mayo. The students' patriotic display was particularly meaningful because of the context, and their right to express their patriotism in light of that context must be honored. The right to wear an American flag every day but Cinco de Mayo would do little to advance the important work of the First Amendment, whose protections must be enforced every day.

There is another important lesson for the school here. For displays of the American flag to create such a strong concern about disruption, it's likely the school has underlying racial and cultural tensions that need attention. Using censorship to suppress student speech is exactly the wrong thing to do in this kind of situation. While the school superintendent did make a statement reaffirming the school district's support for students' speech rights, it's also important that the Live Oak teachers and administrators use this incident as an opportunity to teach students tolerance, diversity and mutual respect."

Read: https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/students-american-flag-t-shirts-are-protected-speech
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#22
Not Christian news.

I think we need a Secular News section on this site maybe?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#23
There's a lot of people on this website from the U.S. that this affects and the principles being discussed apply to all nations built on democratic principles including your own. Though the situation which prompted the lawsuit was political, this case has wider freedom of speech ramifications which ultimately affects religious freedom of speech too.

If you don't like the discussion or feel it doesn't apply to you personally, then pass it over. The entire board isn't going to change to suit David_1's myopic frame of reference.

Not Christian news.

I think we need a Secular News section on this site maybe?
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#24
I'll ignore your insults as usual.

I'm just curious how you think this has anything to do with spreading the Gospel of the Good News?

I think this fall under 'rent under Caesar', as God's Kingdom is not of this world.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#25
Shoo fly. Instead of hanging around for the explicit purpose of derailing a perfectly good thread, especially after having your objection addressed, the ethical thing to do would be to leave. Bye.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
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#26
Not in the ruling that the federal court acknowledged that the public school was hosting what amounts to a Mexican drinking holiday.
So just like most American holidays?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#27
You're not listing your sources posthuman. Specifically, I want to see the Morgan Hill Unified School District dress code that affirms your assertions that clothing with the Mexican flag on it is banned from campus.

Here is a proper source. It's the actual ninth district court ruling:

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf
yes i am. that's exactly the same link that i gave in post #11:

here's the whole court ruling:
http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/27/11-17858.pdf

isn't it better to have the facts?

i also gave a link to an article about the case instead of a link to a petition, and presented the facts about the case instead of nationalistic fear-mongering. i'm glad you finally found the court record too, but i wish you had looked for it before you looked for a misguided & meaningless petition to idolize the flag. (i think the flag-burning controversy during Bush Jr's Iraq war already demonstrated that a petition like this isn't going to result in the flag being institutionally codified as a sacred object)


as to why i keep saying that the Latino kids couldn't wear the Mexican flag, also already quoted in post #11, directly quoting from the court record, we read this:

A group of Mexican students asked
Rodriguez why the Caucasian students “get to wear their flag
out when we [sic] don’t get to wear our [sic] flag?”
and this statement is not challenged. from the (unchallenged) question of the Latino kids i infer that they in fact "don't get to wear their flag."
now i kept saying "apparently" because although it's a clear inference to make, it's not specifically stated.

what is specifically stated is that the American flag wasn't "banned" and that this only affected a small number of kids, not the entire school body.


In my opinion, the school administration should have been stopping the threats, even if it meant canceling all Mexican holiday celebrations on campus, rather than banning clothing with the American flag during those Mexican holidays which are on U.S. public property not Mexico's property.

alright, first read the document you linked to please. the flag wasn't "banned." clothing with the American flag on it wasn't "banned."

then tell me how you propose they were to "cancel" an annual recognizance of Central America's biggest holiday starting from the middle of the afternoon without causing an even more hostile environment. tell me how you stop teenage children from threatening one another. if you know how to do that, you could save a million high schools all over the country a world of grief!!

this school is in an area with a large Hispanic American population, with a large percentage of Hispanic American students, a history of racial tension, a history of gang-related violence, and the children involved had a specific history of ethnic tension. if you were to send 100 students home for no other reason than that they wore red, white and green, and take down all the hallway decorations in the middle of the day, after a handful of kids were involved in an altercation, do you think that would have defused the situation or thrown more wood into the fire?

"why can't we wear a Mexican flag?"
"because, 'Murrica. also, since you asked, everyone wearing Mexican colors has to go home, and anyone that asks that question again gets detention."
(trying to imagine this)
i rather think that would have made the kids that were already the center of controversy an even bigger target.


the school took a course of action that affected the least amount of kids and created the least amount of additional tension. these are all minor children we are talking about and the school has a responsibility to ensure their safety and a peaceable environment suitable for learning moreso than it does to protect the children's right to free speech.

the court doc. cites an altercation the previous year involving flags. no mention of flags was made regarding the events in 2010. did the school ban all flags after that happened? maybe they did; i don't know. this happened in 2010. did the school re-think the annual Cinco de Mayo recognition after those events? maybe they did; i don't know. this controversy has to do how the school's leadership dealt with a specific, small group of kids in a specific argument under a specific threat of violence.

if this had taken place in Alabama or South Carolina on Emancipation Day, and a group of students wearing confederate flags were involved in a potentially violent confrontation with a group of African American students, and the school defused the situation by asking the students wearing confederate flags to do something about their clothing, which had become the crux of the argument, would there be any question about whether the school had acted in the best interests of the safety of all involved?

They violated their own policy against national origin of the AMERICAN kids and they did so on U.S. public property in the United States.
what policy specifically are you talking about? got a source for that? what makes you think the kids of Hispanic background weren't also American?? that area of California was settled and has been continuously occupied ever since by people of Latin-American descent, and the school was acknowledging the heritage of the prevailing community. America isn't completely comprised of Caucasians. there are actually more American citizens of Hispanic descent than there are African Americans.
recognizing the heritage of what is probably a very high percentage of the school - and community - population isn't a crime, it's actually a profoundly American thing to do. maybe you haven't heard, but we call our country "the great melting pot."


The American flag and the Mexican flag are NOT on equal footing on U.S. public property in the United States for the very important reasons I cited in post #6 of this discussion.
guess what flag was raised up on the flagpole outside the school, and what flag they probably all said the pledge of allegiance to that morning? if you think it was a Mexican flag, i'd like to see some evidence of that.

the fact that the Latino kids complained to the asst. principal that they "didn't get to wear (their) flag" points to exactly what you said: the two flags weren't treated equally. the court document refers to kids wearing "the colors of the Mexican flag" -- not "the Mexican flag"- and says there wasn't an indication that they were potentially the targets of violence, otherwise (presumably) the same action would have been taken with them.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#28
2. The ACLU sided with the students sending a letter of protest to Morgan Hills Unified School District and providing a staff attorney to assist the students
are we fans of the ACLU now?

isn't this the group that is always so eager to send out attorneys to ban bibles and public prayer in school?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#29
It isn't over yet by a long shot.
that's great! hopefully the parents of these 3 kids will finally get the big monetary settlement they want and another public school system will be bankrupted.

win-win, huh?

'Murrica. nuff said.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
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#30
There is another important lesson for the school here. For displays of the American flag to create such a strong concern about disruption, it's likely the school has underlying racial and cultural tensions that need attention. Using censorship to suppress student speech is exactly the wrong thing to do in this kind of situation. While the school superintendent did make a statement reaffirming the school district's support for students' speech rights, it's also important that the Live Oak teachers and administrators use this incident as an opportunity to teach students tolerance, diversity and mutual respect."
that certainly is an important point.

are the underlying racial tensions best addressed by suing the pants off the school system in order to protect the rights of 3 minor provocateurs?

what lesson does that teach?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#31
This is the United States Nautilus. Mexicans are free to celebrate their military victory over the French in Mexico's public schools if they that's what they want to do.

So just like most American holidays?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#32
I really dislike your rambling long winded posts full of screed, opinion, conjecture, and a few facts thrown in that get so buried in the other it's like digging for gold that a pirate buried to find them.

Why don't you take a few classes at your local community college in logic and English composition. They have Pell grants available if money's a problem.

That said, you may be so foolish as to sell the first amendment down the river over a little coin but the rest of thankfully us are NOT. California pays out approximately $123 million in tort claims annually for ALL cases against California government entities with the the average award against state and local government about $1.6 million.

Source:
HTML:
http://cpr.ca.gov/cpr_report/Issues_and_Recommendations/Chapter_1_General_Government/Making_Government_More_Efficient/GG37.html
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#33
Which was my point.... that even the ACLU has stepped up FOR the first amendment of these young people regarding the primary symbol (1) of the United States.

(1) The modern meaning of the flag was forged in December 1860, when Major Robert Anderson moved the U.S. garrison from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor. Adam Goodheart argues this was the opening move of the Civil War, and the flag was used throughout the North to symbolize American nationalism...


are we fans of the ACLU now?

isn't this the group that is always so eager to send out attorneys to ban bibles and public prayer in school?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#34
What I stated was a direct quote from the court ruling:

"Another Mexican in the words of the district court, 'shoved a Mexican flag at him and said something in Spanish expressing anger at [M.D.’s] clothing [a t-shirt with a U.S. flag on it]."

The "Mexican" was carrying a Mexican flag on campus and shoving it at students.

This may come as a surprise to you, but in California many citizens of Mexico live here. California public schools accept Mexican citizens as students whether or not they are here legally or illegally. In fact, California has the most illegal aliens of any state with about 2.6 million. See CIS's ' Immigrants in the United States: A Profile of America's Foreign-Born Population' report asserting that California has 217,000 illegal aliens enrolled in their public school system.

The court noted that the students carrying the Mexican flag on campus were "Mexicans" (e.g. citizens of the United Mexican States).

Many of Mexico's citizens, attending public schools in the U.S., have formed into Hispanic gangs fomenting an anti-American racist La Raza identity that create a great deal of problems for school officials and other students up to and including large scale riots on campus.

Illegal alien minors from these gangs have gone so far as to actually hunt down and murder non-Hispanics (an example: Pedro Espinoza murdered Jamiel Shaw). From Florida to California, Nevada to New Jersey, even as far away as the state of Washington these incidents involving pro-Mexican gangs against American students continue to rise.

This isn't a case of "nationalistic fear mongering" to "idolize the flag" so it can be "codified as a sacred object" as you falsely assert in your great ignorance but rather an important case involving important issues that transcend even the critical points I made in post #6, which refute your idiotic statements, as well as the first amendment issues involved.

As Eugene Volokh, a University of California Los Angeles law professor and nationally recognized expert on the First Amendment, noted:

“Behavior that gets rewarded gets repeated. The school taught its students a simple lesson: If you dislike speech and want it suppressed, then you can get what you want by threatening violence against the speakers. The school will cave in, the speakers will be shut up, and you and your ideology will win. When thuggery pays, the result is more thuggery. Is that the education we want our students to be getting?”

If Mexico's citizens cannot attend American public schools without instigating a violent pro-Mexican La Raza identity and attacking American students who wear t-shirts with the American flag, then I assert we pack them up and send them back to Mexico. Adios.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#35
Let the dead bury their own.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#36
Jesus' words in Luke 9:60 are best taken to mean "Leave the (spiritually) dead to bury the (physically) dead." This does not equate to Jesus calling for the abdication of civic responsibility which, of course, would be a position that contradicts numerous other scriptures, ethics, morality, and common sense.


Let the dead bury their own.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#37
Jesus' words in Luke 9:60 are best taken to mean "Leave the (spiritually) dead to bury the (physically) dead." This does not equate to Jesus calling for the abdication of civic responsibility which, of course, would be a position that contradicts numerous other scriptures, ethics, morality, and common sense.
If you want to be Lot's wife, suit yourself.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,584
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#39
Not Christian news.

I think we need a Secular News section on this site maybe?

This is from Robo-op's sticky thread in the news section:

"And by the way, any kind of news can be posted here, not just "Christian News". It's meant to be a "Christian News-Forum", not a "Christian-News Forum". In other words, simply a news forum for Christians to share and discuss any and all news and current events with Christian friends."

 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#40
This is the United States Nautilus. Mexicans are free to celebrate their military victory over the French in Mexico's public schools if they that's what they want to do.
Im not hispanic and even I celebrate Cinco de Mayo while in the United States. Lighten up.