i know someone who doesn't like Israel...

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kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#21
Not all who claim to be Jews are Jews:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." - Revelation 2:9 KJV

This is not to say that any particular groups that call themselves Jewish fall into this category, but this scripture is to be considered.

You can red x my post all you want, what I said was truthful.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#25
Read Romans 9 for context.
No, you read Romans 9- 11 for context. Jews are blinded for a time, till the Gentiles come in, then they will be saved. It's right there in black and white. You can red x it all you want. If you can read, then it's right there on the page.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#26
Soberxp please stop with your foolishness. Jesus was a Jew and we are commanded to bless the Jews. We are to love them and reach out to them like any other people. If you don't understand Christ or why He came. Jews are not beyond the reach of God. Your opinion on this doesn't matter, what matters is what the Word says.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,736
4,944
113
#27
People not liking Israel or Jews is nothing new ya know............. As for today, just go through the words/actions of the radical, socialist, extremist liberals in Washington to see the "dislike" of Israel alive and well.
 

surfer14

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2020
679
389
63
#28
People not liking Israel or Jews is nothing new ya know............. As for today, just go through the words/actions of the radical, socialist, extremist liberals in Washington to see the "dislike" of Israel alive and well.
Sure. But the point of the thread is that it's not just lefties that don't trust Israel. Lots of people on the right are distrustful of Israel also. Lots of those people that are on the right that are distrustful of Israel are also serious Christians. I would put myself in that category.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
343
104
43
#29
No, you read Romans 9- 11 for context. Jews are blinded for a time, till the Gentiles come in, then they will be saved. It's right there in black and white. You can red x it all you want. If you can read, then it's right there on the page.
Not all Jews will be saved, and only those that find Christ will be grafted back in. As Jesus said "none come to the Father except through me." Every Jew to be saved will become Christian.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#30
Not all Jews will be saved, and only those that find Christ will be grafted back in. As Jesus said "none come to the Father except through me." Every Jew to be saved will become Christian.

I'm wondering if people simply aren't reading what I, and others that agree with me, are saying. None of us has said there is any other way to be saved other than through Christ. Romans says that Jews will be blinded for a time, then they will come to understand that Jesus was the Messiah, the one they had been looking for. Please read my comments before you answer. No one here has ever said Jews are saved another way.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
343
104
43
#31
Here, let's build an understanding. So far you have:

disliked Romans 9:6-8

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8

disliked Revelation 2:9

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." - Revelation 2:9 KJV

Why do you dislike scripture?
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#32
Here, let's build an understanding. So far you have:

disliked Romans 9:6-8

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8

disliked Revelation 2:9

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." - Revelation 2:9 KJV

Why do you dislike scripture?



Romans 9- 11 Some people can't seem to figure out when Paul is speaking to the Jews and when He is speaking to the church. I don't dislike Scripture, I dislike when it is twisted or misused.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,197
3,612
113
60
#33
I became really interested in the Jews and Israel at the beginning of this year , I just had an urge to understand more...
Now that I am learning , and have learned that God will not abandon the Jews , ( it really is over the OT ) I have come to believe that God gives us this love for the Jews , Israel , His Holy Land by giving us a supernatural love for them , because that is what I now have in my heart , a love that could of only come from God...
...xox...
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,197
3,612
113
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#34
Actually @kaylagrl ...
I have to say also , because you have constantly brought Romans 9-11 this caused me to go read it for myself , it is as clear as day light , so thank you for your constant posting on these verses , I pray also that others will go back and re-read Amen...
...xox...
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
343
104
43
#35
Romans 9- 11 Some people can't seem to figure out when Paul is speaking to the Jews and when He is speaking to the church. I don't dislike Scripture, I dislike when it is twisted or misused.
How is posting scripture (and only the scripture, without commentary) a twist or misuse?
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#36
Actually @kaylagrl ...
I have to say also , because you have constantly brought Romans 9-11 this caused me to go read it for myself , it is as clear as day light , so thank you for your constant posting on these verses , I pray also that others will go back and re-read Amen...
...xox...
You are very welcome sister! I am so glad the verses spoke to you and helped your understanding. I pray the same thing and that it will be as clear to them as it is to you. Blessings!
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#37
How is posting scripture (and only the scripture, without commentary) a twist or misuse?

Why do you dislike scripture?

But you have given commentary on what you believe. And you believe Replacement Theology, which is simply wrong. Again, I have no issue with Scripture. I have no issue with you for that matter. It's just what you are believing is wrong.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
343
104
43
#38
Replacement Theology
I don't know what "Replacement theology" means. There was a clear transition of priesthood and covenant. For those Jews that followed Jesus, witnessed the crucifixion and remained Christian, those are the bearers of the true Judaism. Every other Jew that walked away from Christ is an apostate. It isn't a replacement. They walked away from God in favour of the teachings of their elders (a brood of vipers, as Jesus said). These same may be saved by grace, but were cut from the tree.

Some natural branches are cut off and other branches are grafted in. At the end of the grafting process, some of the natural branches are grafted back in (not all, because not all of Israel are Israel). All whom are intended for the tree will become part. It is important to note that these "natural" branches are referring to branches that were considered natural prior to the crucifixion, and includes earlier converts to Judaism and other forms of Israel. These earlier converts would have been grafted-in in the same manner and are considered part of the natural tree by Paul within Romans 11.

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." - Romans 11:19-21 KJV

If we look back at Jeremiah:

"Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets. To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it." - Jeremiah 6:8-10 KJV

The word of the Lord is Jesus Christ:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:14-17 KJV

Not all of Israel is saved. Only those that are in Christ:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
" - John 15:3-7 KJV


The inheritors of the promise are those in Christ:

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8 KJV

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:15-17 KJV

Romans 3:24-26 covers the topic of remission of sins prior to the crucifixion:

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." - Romans 3:24-26 KJV

The topic becomes blurry when we consider that Jewish Christians eventually just called themselves Christians. The hatred for Jewish Christians by some Orthodox Jews is real and heaven forbid anyone denies it. Calling Christianity a "replacement" is hateful to those founding Jewish Christians and their descendants that believe in the fulfilment of prophesy by the coming of Christ.

We should not look at the current political state of Israel as having any necessary bearing on the Biblical nation and people of Israel anymore than places like Jerusalem, New York, having any necessary bearing on the Biblical Jerusalem: "(But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel: )" - 1 Kings 11:32 KJV

I have no issue with Scripture. I have no issue with you for that matter. It's just what you are believing is wrong.
Make your case.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,110
4,587
113
#39
I don't know what "Replacement theology" means. There was a clear transition of priesthood and covenant. For those Jews that followed Jesus, witnessed the crucifixion and remained Christian, those are the bearers of the true Judaism. Every other Jew that walked away from Christ is an apostate. It isn't a replacement. They walked away from God in favour of the teachings of their elders (a brood of vipers, as Jesus said). These same may be saved by grace, but were cut from the tree.

Some natural branches are cut off and other branches are grafted in. At the end of the grafting process, some of the natural branches are grafted back in (not all, because not all of Israel are Israel). All whom are intended for the tree will become part. It is important to note that these "natural" branches are referring to branches that were considered natural prior to the crucifixion, and includes earlier converts to Judaism and other forms of Israel. These earlier converts would have been grafted-in in the same manner and are considered part of the natural tree by Paul within Romans 11.

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." - Romans 11:19-21 KJV

If we look back at Jeremiah:

"Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets. To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it." - Jeremiah 6:8-10 KJV

The word of the Lord is Jesus Christ:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:14-17 KJV

Not all of Israel is saved. Only those that are in Christ:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
" - John 15:3-7 KJV


The inheritors of the promise are those in Christ:

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8 KJV

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:15-17 KJV

Romans 3:24-26 covers the topic of remission of sins prior to the crucifixion:

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." - Romans 3:24-26 KJV

The topic becomes blurry when we consider that Jewish Christians eventually just called themselves Christians. The hatred for Jewish Christians by some Orthodox Jews is real and heaven forbid anyone denies it. Calling Christianity a "replacement" is hateful to those founding Jewish Christians and their descendants that believe in the fulfilment of prophesy by the coming of Christ.

We should not look at the current political state of Israel as having any necessary bearing on the Biblical nation and people of Israel anymore than places like Jerusalem, New York, having any necessary bearing on the Biblical Jerusalem: "(But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel: )" - 1 Kings 11:32 KJV



Make your case.

Replacement theology is the belief that the church has replaced Israel and the Jews. Romans makes it clear that they do not. There are still promises to be kept to Israel. I keep saying it, the Jews, blinded for a time. Only for a time. Then they will see that they have rejected the true Messiah and the Bible says they will morn. Very simply put in Romans.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
343
104
43
#40
Replacement theology is the belief that the church has replaced Israel and the Jews.
Calling it a "replacement" as opposed to a fulfilment is hateful towards the first Jewish Christians and their descendants. We don't say that Judaism "replaced" the Hebrew religion. There is a conflict of interpretation between Christianity and Orthodox Judaism. Much like Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic Christians. Who left whom? The original Jewish Christians and their descendants are still Jewish by birthright and never "replaced" their faith with "something else" when Christ came.

There are still promises to be kept to Israel.
Which Israel? The scriptural Israel (not all of Israel are Israel)?

You've disliked or disagreed with "not all of Isreal are Israel" a lot. What is your interpretation? What do you see as the correct context of that passage?

I keep saying it, the Jews, blinded for a time. Only for a time. Then they will see that they have rejected the true Messiah and the Bible says they will morn. Very simply put in Romans.
Where does it speak of mourning?

Hypergrace for Jews is not scriptural. There are clear passages which speak of those that are excluded from the promise (the ones that bear thorns instead of good fruit). The blindness is mentioned, yes, and it is possible with scripture that a Jew may be saved by grace posthumously by turning to Christ. It might be the case that most people that called themselves "Jews" are saved. It depends on whether the love of God is in their heart (bearing good fruit). But scripturally there are people that will call themselves "Jews" and are not. I don't know how you could say all that call themselves "Jews" are saved when this contradicts scripture.