Immigration a big issue.

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A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#41
I like that you differentiate between the two. I do as well and for very good reason. However, even legal immigration must be engaged in wisely to maximize desirable outcomes and minimize undesirable outcomes resulting from legal immigration.


Actually, immigration isn't that big of a deal at all.............now ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION...........that's different........
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,986
43
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#42
Invaded by Children, or Teenaged Boys, or MS-13 Gang Members?

Mara Salvatrucha = MS-13. American & Central American Gang.

I read the claim that the so-called Children Migration, or Children's Crusade with 10's of thousands of "children" invading the USA, is 80 percent teenaged boys. Also, I read that they are being recruited by the MS-13 gang.

Does that affect our thinking on this?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#43
Kenneth, I am aware of OT scripture on not sending back a slave, but I don't know what vs you are speaking of on persecution. What do you have in mind?
Leviticus 19:33-34
“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Here it says we are to treat them with love when some one not native to your country comes to you.


Exodus 22:21
“You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt

Here again it says we are not to wrong or oppress. ( keep them from a better life )


Isaiah 16:3-4
“Give counsel; grant justice; make your shade like night at the height of noon; shelter the outcasts; do not reveal the fugitive; let the outcasts of Moab sojourn among you; be a shelter to them from the destroyer. When the oppressor is no more, and destruction has ceased, and he who tramples underfoot has vanished from the land.

Here it says we are to shelter them, and protect them from the destroyer ( persecution ).
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#44
''The kids who are coming here now, that are causing the main issue are trying to flee persecution and even death. To just send them back to that situation would be against God.''

Where is the proof they were fleeing persecution? The trials for these kids have not even taken place and you have judged them...all....to be persecuted children.

This fiasco at the border is what happens when you have a president who cares more about politics than he does about chgildren. They are there by his invitation and lack of understanding of what a president is. His ignorance and ideology have placed many children in harms path in their long journey to our country.

The problem is our president who has no clue what being president really is.

I have not judged anybody. All you have to do is watch the interviews with these children, and why they say they are coming here to know this. Every one that I have seen, the kids are saying the same thing. That their parents sent them here to escape the persecution from the cartels and gang violence down there that has gotten so bad that joining a gang has almost become mandatory.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
3,102
105
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#45
Ken,
Let's be fair. The USA accepts more immigrants than any country in the world. We can't save the world.
I know a Man who can.

2 Chronicles 7:14.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#46
I like that scripture. The bible shows over and over again that God uses us to do His will down here, and under grace thanks be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we are to live in love for others.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbors, and even love your enemies.

But we see instead a lot of Christians showing hatred, un-forgiveness, no compassion, and even go as far and make forms of murder acceptable.

I know a Man who can.

2 Chronicles 7:14.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
3,102
105
63
#47
I like that scripture. The bible shows over and over again that God uses us to do His will down here, and under grace thanks be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we are to live in love for others.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbors, and even love your enemies.

But we see instead a lot of Christians showing hatred, un-forgiveness, no compassion, and even go as far and make forms of murder acceptable.
When I read some of the comments here, I understand why the secular world sees us as a bunch of hypocrites. Every church in America, and the rest of the world should open their doors to these children. Take a look at Mark 9:36-37. Jesus tells us exactly what to do with the children.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#48
When I read some of the comments here, I understand why the secular world sees us as a bunch of hypocrites. Every church in America, and the rest of the world should open their doors to these children. Take a look at Mark 9:36-37. Jesus tells us exactly what to do with the children.

Exactly, and Matthew 25:31-46 shows the danger of not helping out or doing for others.

It shows two groups that both believe in Jesus, one gets salvation for doing for others, and the other gets sent to everlasting punishment for not helping others because Jesus because you did not do for them, you did not do for ME.
 

biscuit

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2014
2,051
15
0
#49
Exactly, and Matthew 25:31-46 shows the danger of not helping out or doing for others.

It shows two groups that both believe in Jesus, one gets salvation for doing for others, and the other gets sent to everlasting punishment for not helping others because Jesus because you did not do for them, you did not do for ME.
No country on earth even come close to USA when it comes to the number of immigrants allowed. Not only that, we provide more humanitarian aid to underdeveloped or 3rd world countries than any other country on this planet. It's times that more countries become involved. For example, Mexico sits on the largest world oil reserve but refuse to tap into it to save its own people. Instead, it points to the U.S. border.
 
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Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
3,102
105
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#50
No country on earth even come close to USA when it comes to the number of immigrants allowed. Not only that, we provide more humanitarian aid to underdeveloped or 3rd world countries than any other country on this planet. It's times that more countries become involved. For example, Mexico sits on the largest world oil reserve but refuse to tap into it to save its own people. Instead, it points to the U.S. border.
Does that excuse us (Christians and/or Christian Church) from our responsibility to obey Christ? Would you rather have the governments of the children's home country or Mexico bring the children up in the care and admonition of a Gang, or take the opportunity to bring them up in the care and admonition of the Lord?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,521
140
63
#51
Usa is just a country and not every body in this country are christian. So don't put our hope in the country. Our hope is in the Lord.

If We have money and resource we as individual can help this children. But expect country to help is not going to happen.

US have a lot of burden, with the debt, unemployment rate up, food stamp etc.

US is run by shadow government, Obama is just a puppet. And this shadow government is evil. Basically this shadow government is New Word order control by Jesuit.


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A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#52
Re: Invaded by Children, or Teenaged Boys, or MS-13 Gang Members?

Oh, it's official:

[video=youtube_share;2o5eJIStS3s]http://youtu.be/2o5eJIStS3s[/video]

Rammusen Reports show the vast majority of voters want to send latest illegal immigrants home ASAP: Most Voters Want to Send Latest Illegal Immigrants Home ASAP - Rasmussen Reports�

^ and just 31% of U.S. voters say they are coming here for their own safety.

Also, this is a great study by CIS on how most foreign students abuse our immigration system to enter the nation legally and then simply dropout and become illegal aliens. So in addition to displacing college seats American students could have had, they also fail to repay their student loans, and work under the table displacing Americans from the labor market and reducing compensation for workers in the U.S. domestic labor market: Marginal Schools for Migrants | Center for Immigration Studies

For a grand total of $400.00 plus airfare; an alien student accepted at MSM#1 secures a visa, gets through the port of entry, and arrives in the United States making it one of the easiest, safest, and cheapest ways to get into the country illegally through a marginal schools on a student visa and then simply ignore the institution that made the trip possible and either drop out during or after graduation.


Mara Salvatrucha = MS-13. American & Central American Gang.

I read the claim that the so-called Children Migration, or Children's Crusade with 10's of thousands of "children" invading the USA, is 80 percent teenaged boys. Also, I read that they are being recruited by the MS-13 gang.

Does that affect our thinking on this?
 

biscuit

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2014
2,051
15
0
#53
Does that excuse us (Christians and/or Christian Church) from our responsibility to obey Christ? Would you rather have the governments of the children's home country or Mexico bring the children up in the care and admonition of a Gang, or take the opportunity to bring them up in the care and admonition of the Lord?
Again, it is the responsibility of the various governments to take care of their people and not the USA. Mexico and many of these Latin American countries are ruled by ruthless, wealthy families and force the poor to survive elsewhere. Why don't you invite a few dozens of these illegal immigrants to live with you? You are misquoting the Scriptures!!!
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#54
You're just going merrily along misinterpreting scripture to "prove" something that is not true after I corrected you here: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/95762-immigration-big-issue-2.html#post1614956

"The right for nations and national borders to both exist and be enforced is supported in scripture. Ancient Israel rigorously defended their national borders and did so in a land that God gave them which was not theirs to start with. Additionally, ancient Israel had very tough illegal alien laws which they also rigorously enforced. Of course, they were accepting of visiting foreigners who legally visited and those who immigrated legally but both groups were expected to abide under ancient Israel’s laws and respect its customs with visitors (e.g. sojourners) receiving basic justice but not the full privileges of an Israelite. Jesus never spoke against ancient Israel's right to exist, their border security, or their national immigration system: not once."

"In the Bible the image of the foreigner is always that of the alien who lives in a country not of his or her own origin, either as a [legal] guest or as a [legal] permanent resident. It is not used of other nations [or someone living temporarily in Israel with no legal rights or citizenship]."

^ Source: Ryken, L., Wilhoit, J., Longman, T., Duriez, C., Penney, D., & Reid, D. G. (2000). Dictionary of biblical imagery (electronic ed.) (300). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

As the New Bible Dictionary explains, there is a real difference in the Bible between an alien [zar](one who does not belong and who has usurped a position they have no legal right to) who is one that does not belong to the nation and is virtually equated in the old testament as an enemy (See Is. 1:7; Je. 5:19; 51:51; Ezk. 7:21; 28:7, 10; Ob. 11; etc...) and that of a sojourner (one whose permanent residence is legally in another nation) or foreign guest (one whose stay is brief and temporary).
You are grossly misinterpreting and misusing scripture kennethcadwell.

In the Old Testament, to be overrun with aliens was one of the consequences of being disobedient to Yahweh (Lev. 26:14-46; Deut. 28:15-68). The removal and diminishing of the aliens is among the blessings of obedience to Yahweh (Lev. 26:3-13; Deut. 28:1-14).

Leviticus 19:33-34 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Here it says we are to treat them with love when some one not native to your country comes to you. Exodus 22:21 “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt Here again it says we are not to wrong or oppress. ( keep them from a better life ) Isaiah 16:3-4 “Give counsel; grant justice; make your shade like night at the height of noon; shelter the outcasts; do not reveal the fugitive; let the outcasts of Moab sojourn among you; be a shelter to them from the destroyer. When the oppressor is no more, and destruction has ceased, and he who tramples underfoot has vanished from the land. Here it says we are to shelter them, and protect them from the destroyer ( persecution ).
 

biscuit

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2014
2,051
15
0
#55
It is really up to these poor Latin American countries to force a regime change in their government to benefit those who are in need. The USA has given more than its fair share (4x more than the next country) and sends an extraordinary amount of aid to these same countries, which more than qualified as fulfilling Jesus' promises. And if some posters believe this is not enough should open their doors 24/7 to these illegal immigrants.
 
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Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
3,102
105
63
#56
It is really up to these poor Latin American countries to force a regime change in their government to benefit those who are in need. The USA has given more than its fair share (4x more than the next country) and sends an extraordinary amount of aid to these same countries, which more than qualified as fulfilling Jesus' promises. And if some posters believe this is not enough should open their doors 24/7 to these illegal immigrants.
My friend, Jesus doesn't set a limit on how many we are to help. He just tells us to help. If these children do not experience the Gospel through us, they will experience the gang and terrorist culture through their home countries, or through our streets. They are here now, we have an opportunity. The next time they return, and they will, it will probably be with a gang or cartel. Would you rather meet them in Heaven, or condemn them to Hell. That's not a difficult choice for me to make.

I'll add this little fact for you. The aid provided by our country is a drop in the bucket when compared to the amount of money it spends to buy the drugs produced by these counties. If you are really serious about stopping the flow of illegals to the US, dry up the market for the product they are hawking.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#57
Yes we are not to set a limit on how many to help, just because we have already so many hear already or because we have problems of are own.
We should make a point to help those in our own country and them.
Plus a poll showing most people want to send them back shows just how much people have lost their love and compassion, and I know not everybody in this country is Christian.
But even the ones who say their Christian want to send them back, that is sad.
Next I saw a poll mentioning about 31 % of voters saying they are not coming here for safety.


Lets believe what U.S. voters say, and not what the actual kids are saying. That is just plain stupid to believe some one other than the ones coming here.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#58
Foreign gang members, on contract for the cartels, are crossing the border to set up street gangs to deal their drugs, perform their hits, and branch out into robbery, kidnapping, extortion, prostitution, etc... and you've no problem using a heavily indebted government to tax recession Americans to help them expand their criminal networks in the U.S. and fund these activities.

Jesus said to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. You're being the opposite: naive and indirectly helping criminal organizations to victimize your neighbors in violation to help your neighbors who will be the ones victimized by them.

Instead of helping cartels expand their criminal activities into the U.S., you should become a missionary. Then your walk will match your talk instead of your talk resulting in very undesirable consequences for your neighbors and revealing that you're basically a lazy hypocrite.

Sure, it's easy to give away other people's money and deny their children what they need to help foreign gang bangers expand criminal networks into the U.S. while you hypocritically lay on the couch and watch television but that's not helping anyone and Jesus doesn't cosign ignorant, delusional, criminal irresponsibility.

You're part of the problem, that's all.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#59
Well if this is true then why in most the reports these kids are not secretly sneaking into the U.S. They are getting up here and turning themselves right over to authorities asking for help.

Plus if you are so caught up on the gang and drug violence, you have not been paying much attention to our country.
Drugs and gang violence has been bad in the U.S. since the 80's. And gangs go back even further than that in our country with all the biker gangs and so forth.


Foreign gang members, on contract for the cartels, are crossing the border to set up street gangs to deal their drugs, perform their hits, and branch out into robbery, kidnapping, extortion, prostitution, etc... and you've no problem using a heavily indebted government to tax recession Americans to help them expand their criminal networks in the U.S. and fund these activities.

Jesus said to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. You're being as naive as can humanely be possible and indirectly helping criminal organizations to victimize your neighbors.

Most of them will be returned to their parents because most Americans understand what's happening and are not going to enable irresponsible and criminal behavior. Instead of helping cartels you should become a missionary. Then your walk will match your talk instead of your talk resulting in very undesirable consequences for your neighbors.

Sure, it's easy to give away other people's money and deny their children what they need to help foreign gang bangers expand criminal networks into the U.S. while you hypocritically lay on the couch and watch television but that's not helping anyone and Jesus doesn't cosign ignorant, delusional, criminal irresponsibility.

Your part of the problem, that's all.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#60
Because they were informed that the U.S. government would help them become established here by the media in the countries they are citizens of and the cartels who are assisting them in exchange for their loyalty.

DPS: Cartels helping immigrant children enter US illegally - El Paso Times

[video=youtube_share;OBcTsbWPqFQ]http://youtu.be/OBcTsbWPqFQ[/video]

Mexican and Central American criminal organizations have BIG plans for the U.S. in the coming years. Read:

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/05/02/mexican_drug_cartels_penetration_united_states

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/01/mexican-drug-cartels-reportedly-dispatching-agents-deep-inside-us/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/09/mexico-el-chapo-guzman-emma-coronel-twins-lancaster-antelope-valley.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mexican-drug-cartels-recruiting-american-children-errands-easy-cash-report-article-1.964218

http://www.businessinsider.com/this-graphic-shows-what-mexican-cartels-and-drugs-come-to-your-town-2012-7

Steal the food out of the mouths of American children to expand foreign criminal organizations into the U.S.. That's great. And you put Jesus' name on it as you lie on the couch not lifting a finger. Unbelievable. But that's what a liberal is... an irresponsible, unwise, injurer of Americans deluding themselves into thinking they are doing something good when they are merely hurting their own neighbors.

I'm from LOS ANGELES, CA and went right through both crime spikes in the 80's and 90's here in a state with a population of 38 million people. Don't tell me I haven't been paying attention. I've been to my friend's funerals. Immigration fueled La Raza street gangs, prison gangs, cartels, and criminality including murdering, assaulting, robbing, and drug dealing from one end of this state to the other. They took the public education system from first in the country to third from the bottom. They pushed the state into heavy indebtness and recently cities into bankruptcy.

YOU'VE not been paying attention. But guess what, the national debt has grow so large that it's not sustainable to continue the practice and in just a few more years you're going to see serious change finally come to the immigration system. Read this: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/95841-u-s-national-debt-update.html#post1616303

I can see ahead but people like you can only see in hindsight. And you will see in hindsight that I was right and you are wrong even if you live in denial and can't admit it.


Well if this is true then why in most the reports these kids are not secretly sneaking into the U.S. They are getting up here and turning themselves right over to authorities asking for help.

Plus if you are so caught up on the gang and drug violence, you have not been paying much attention to our country.
Drugs and gang violence has been bad in the U.S. since the 80's. And gangs go back even further than that in our country with all the biker gangs and so forth.