MOTHER TAKES REFUGE IN DENVER CHURCH

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FreeNChrist

Guest
#61
We can use our rights just as we wish. We can use our authority just as we wish. It's my right to forgive. It's my right to pay for the debts of a repentant illegal.

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He agreed to pay them a denarius[SUP][a][/SUP] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ [SUP]5 [/SUP]So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. [SUP]10 [/SUP]So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. [SUP]12 [/SUP]‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? [SUP]14 [/SUP]Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Jesus Christ had to right to either let you go to hell... or save you.

This isn't naive-ness. This is outright being a Christian. I'm not for illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is wrong. That should not happen.

That being said, if we really want to apply Christian principle then we as Christians should look to justify them. Look for repentant illegals, just like G-d looked for repentant sinners. This is basic Christianity. G-d saw us illegals in regards to sin... and instead of passing good judgement.. he passed redemption.

I'm not saying we should be stupid and take no precautions or judge evil as evil. I'm just saying your not applying the whole bible into this. Your only applying the parts of the bible that says "evil is evil and it deserves punishment" but, your forgetting that we were that evil and G-d redeemed us.

You used to be an illegal... worse than an illegal.

Matthew 18:21-35

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. [SUP]24 [/SUP]As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[SUP][b][/SUP] was brought to him. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[SUP][c][/SUP] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. [SUP]31 [/SUP]When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ [SUP]34 [/SUP]In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

If you want to pass judgement so hastily, it's your right. But, bare in mind that your very much or exactly like the unmerciful servant for not looking for those repentant illegals.

Also, it's my right to look for repentant illegals.

.... about giving up your salvation for others... That's amazing. That's probably not that bad if Paul said a similar thing..

Romans 9:3-4

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, [SUP]4 [/SUP]the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

"Repentant" illegal's wouldn't be here to look for. :rolleyes:
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#62
We don't live in a perfect Christian utopia. I doubt most people will be on board with what I said. I think this is the "perfect" answer. Unfortunately, if I ever had enough power to do something about these issues, I'd have to argue with a different argument to people like you into doing some kind of compromise of this or something okay for your own good.

You have to do both, make justice happen and lovingly look to save people. That's what happened in the cross. I'm just applying it. I'm saying after you have the justice part figured out... if you don't look for a "love/forgiveness" solution as well, your not following G-d completely.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#63
We don't leave in a perfect Christian utopia. I doubt most people will be on board. I think this is the "perfect" answer. Unfortunately, if I ever had enough power to do something about these issues, I'd have to argue with a different argument to people like you into doing some kind of compromise of this or something okay for your own good.

You have to do both, make justice happen and lovingly look to save people. That's what happened in the cross. I'm just applying it. I'm saying after you have the justice part figured out... if you don't look for a "love/forgiveness" solution as well, your not following G-d completely.
Those in this country must live by the laws of this country. Justice is what the law prescribes for those breaking it. That is the solution.
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
1,644
596
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#65
I doubt most of you will get this, but I'll give it one try. I'm not for illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is wrong. That should not happen.

That being said, if we really want to apply Christian principle then we as Christians should look to justify them. This is basic Christianity. G-d saw us illegals in regards to sin... and instead of passing good judgement.. he passed redemption.
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I don't think we are suppose to justify sin. By definition, justify means "to show or prove right or reasonable". You and I both agree illegal immigration is wrong and "shouldn't happen"... why then should we justify it?

I'm not saying we should be stupid and take no precautions or judge evil as evil. I'm just saying your not applying the whole bible into this. Your only applying the parts of the bible that says "evil is evil and it deserves punishment" but, your forgetting that we were that evil and G-d redeemed us.

There's a whole story on this.... think it's called "the wicked servant" who didn't forgive the debt. I shared the story a few posts ago. Literally just think about the gospel, not everyone (illegals, refuges, anyone that does a wrong) is saved... but those we can save, we as Christians owe it to G-d to try to save them.
I'm also not following how we have to "justify" their crime in order for those illegal immigrants to have redemption. Can't they have redemption in Christ as well as be deported? Mercy cannot rob justice. In order for there to be justice within the civil law, there must be restitution for crime they committed. If I was a pimp who had several prostitutes working for me, but I seek redemption, I cannot continue my current lifestyle... I should forsake my sin/crime. It would be wonderful and powerful if an illegal immigrant was redeemed and went back to their native country willingly to show restitution and redemption... In that part, we as Christians should be encouraging of them to do that... but "justifying" their sin?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#67
You know what I mean.
Well, I don't.

Repent means to change your mind. Have any of your "repentant" illegals changed their minds that they did wrong and cheated thousands of their countrymen waiting legally? If they had, they would, right now, be walking back across that border to do it right .... to come in through the narrow gate.

You act like they are being punished. THEY ARE NOT BEING PUNISHED. They are being forgiven of what should have landed them in prison, and are freely being given a new chance to come in legally with their "brothers."
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
1,644
596
113
#68
We don't live in a perfect Christian utopia. I doubt most people will be on board with what I said. I think this is the "perfect" answer. Unfortunately, if I ever had enough power to do something about these issues, I'd have to argue with a different argument to people like you into doing some kind of compromise of this or something okay for your own good.

You have to do both, make justice happen and lovingly look to save people. That's what happened in the cross. I'm just applying it. I'm saying after you have the justice part figured out... if you don't look for a "love/forgiveness" solution as well, your not following G-d completely.
Deporting (restitution) illegal immigrants is the justice part, the love/forgiveness part would be allowing them to come back legally.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
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#69
This is a fair point, and I believe that the penalties for hiring illegals were relaxed under Clinton admin. Regardless, if you make it prohibitively expensive on the employer to break the law the reason for most illegally coming here will dry up.



Quite the contrary the Clinton administration actually strengthened the laws against illegal via legal reform:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Immigration_Reform_and_Immigrant_Responsibility_Act_of_1996



Even the CONSERVATIVE Newsmax acknowledged that Clinton and Congress strengthened the laws via this act:


What Is Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996?






Not surprisingly, Sirk's hero Bush tried to grant amnesty to illegals until he was stopped by conservatives in Congress with the CONSERVATIVE Washington Times pointing the finger at him for this inflow of illegals:


Bush 'amnesty' blamed for rise in illegals - Washington Times








Nice try Sirk & Utah - but put the blame on your Republican hero Bush, not Clinton and certainly not on Froggy. ;)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,672
6,861
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#70
Only problem with those Reports is:

Under Clinton, only just over Nine Hundred Thousand Illegals were deported............in 8 years

Under Bush, the Son, over Two Million Illegals were deported in 8 years.

So, regardless of the Reports, Bush certainly did far more to address the problem than Clinton did.

Now, you should have argued that Obama (who was called the Deporter in Chief) deported way more Illegals than either Clinton or Bush............and, yet, he tried his best to DO AWAY with our Immigration Laws........go figure...........These numbers can be found with a simple search. I explain the Obama mystery by recognizing how many Illegals he protected and how many he allowed in...........and those numbers offset those he deported to the point that he pretty much ends up with a "negative deportation" record in my opinion. :)
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,216
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#72
IMHO, If you feel that we should allow someone who entered the country illegally to remain in this country, sponsor that person, and provide the resources necessary to ensure that he/she can survive without government assistance.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#73
Ok, you willing to come live in the real world?

We have laws for a reason. Do you agree?
The laws should be enforced. Do you agree?
The laws should be enforced equally. Do you agree?
If you followed procedures, you are here legally. Do you agree?
If you did not, you are not here legally. Do you agree?

Do you feel those laws should be ignored because someone got away with not following them?
Do you feel that someone who got away with sneaking into this country years ago should receive preferential treatment over someone back in Mexico, patiently awaiting their turn to come in through legal channels?

Are you, perhaps under the impression that illegals returned to Mexico do not have the same opportunity to apply for U.S, citizenship the same way as those now standing in line at the border gates went through that process?

They are not going to be burned in fire. They are simply going to be returned so that they can now do it legally... just like everyone else.

They have never supported our way of life with even one single dollar of income taxes... as all the rest of us (including those here legally) have done. Yet, somehow past administrations have given many of them steady welfare and entitlements. (You and I paid every dime of that for them to enjoy.)

You seem to want us to thumb our noses at the people now in Mexico, waiting their turn, and instead, cater to those who already laughed at their legal 'brothers" and slipped across the river.
You misunderstand me... throughout your whole post, I mostly nodded yes, your right.

I'm perfectly fine with judging wrong as wrong. I'm on the same page with on that...or better yet I was on the same page... I passed that page and turned another page moving forward in doing what's right. While your still on the page of laws and doing good justice, now I'm also looking into justifying illegals... saving messed up radical Islamic terrorists instead of simply just practicing justice.

You and me are the same on some things, but the truth is I'm ahead of you morally in that I'm also looking to practice mercy. I don't have well thought plan, but I know as a Christian I owe to G-d or at least G-d expects it of me to look to justify illegals and save those crazy Islamic terrorists from their evil ways. In a way your only playing a defense game, protecting ourselves from the dangers is right and smart. While me, I'm looking for both a defense and offense game, protect ourselves and go out to protect others... yes, even those people who want to kill us. I'm not saying to do that naively either. A good practical efficient plan where we don't endanger ourselves. Our missionaries are already doing this... venturing out there, risking their lives, but they definitely are doing the offense game... the looking to save them.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#74
Those in this country must live by the laws of this country. Justice is what the law prescribes for those breaking it. That is the solution.
Like I said with others... I agree with you. But, that doesn't mean we can't find a way for illegal immigrants or refugees to be "saved" just like G-d saved us from our judgment.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#75
You misunderstand me... throughout your whole post, I mostly nodded yes, your right.

I'm perfectly fine with judging wrong as wrong. I'm on the same page with on that...or better yet I was on the same page... I passed that page and turned another page moving forward in doing what's right. While your still on the page of laws and doing good justice, now I'm also looking into justifying illegals... saving messed up radical Islamic terrorists instead of simply just practicing justice.

You and me are the same on some things, but the truth is I'm ahead of you morally in that I'm also looking to practice mercy. I don't have well thought plan, but I know as a Christian I owe to G-d or at least G-d expects it of me to look to justify illegals and save those crazy Islamic terrorists from their evil ways. In a way your only playing a defense game, protecting ourselves from the dangers is right and smart. While me, I'm looking for both a defense and offense game, protect ourselves and go out to protect others... yes, even those people who want to kill us. I'm not saying to do that naively either. A good practical efficient plan where we don't endanger ourselves. Our missionaries are already doing this... venturing out there, risking their lives, but they definitely are doing the offense game... the looking to save them.
Then I assume you have put your money where your mouth is, and that you have already bought your plane ticket for Syria or Iran. You can easily find plenty of them over there, and save them. (Or, more correctly stated, they will quickly find you.)

Staying here, you cannot manage to locate even one until he comes out of hiding and kills some of us.
 

peacenik

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
3,071
26
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#76
IMHO, If you feel that we should allow someone who entered the country illegally to remain in this country, sponsor that person, and provide the resources necessary to ensure that he/she can survive without government assistance.



Very good suggestion. In fact, we have several churches and non-profit institutions who have openly expressed willingness to do just that. Among them are arriveministries, iecminnesota, iimn, and several others. Numerous persons who are unaffiliated with these institutions have also expressed that same willingness (some for humane reasons, others because it is a biblical mandate). There are many hundreds throughout the country that have done the same.

Before Trump executes his new directive, he needs to allow people to obey the Bible's law and not to interfere with their religious rights - this assuming he is the Christian he claims to be.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
949
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#77
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I don't think we are suppose to justify sin. By definition, justify means "to show or prove right or reasonable". You and I both agree illegal immigration is wrong and "shouldn't happen"... why then should we justify it?



I'm also not following how we have to "justify" their crime in order for those illegal immigrants to have redemption. Can't they have redemption in Christ as well as be deported? Mercy cannot rob justice. In order for there to be justice within the civil law, there must be restitution for crime they committed. If I was a pimp who had several prostitutes working for me, but I seek redemption, I cannot continue my current lifestyle... I should forsake my sin/crime. It would be wonderful and powerful if an illegal immigrant was redeemed and went back to their native country willingly to show restitution and redemption... In that part, we as Christians should be encouraging of them to do that... but "justifying" their sin?
Apology accepted because you completely misunderstand one part of what I'm saying... justify sin. I didn't say to justify sin. I said to justify people. Just like G-d justified us... we should look to justify people.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Again, I'm not talking about justifying their sin, but justifying people... and I don't think all of them can be justified, especially if their unwilling to admit their evil.

Like I said before, I don't have some specific plan. However, the general idea is this... after your done "counting" how much crime an illegal or ANY law breaker has to pay. As Christians we should also look for individual law breakers that are willing to accept forgiveness. If you don't think there's a way this works... then you frankly don't believe gospel works. You frankly don't believe Christ both justified, fulfilled the law, and gave us forgiveness.

This is just Christianity applied in real life.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#78
I know it is nonsensical. If an illegal is still in this country they have obviously not "repented".
I'll explain it to you more clearly then. Did Jesus save us from sins?

Did Jesus go out and preach for our sins to be forgiven?

Did Jesus look for LAWBREAKERS and try to help them somehow?

Let's do that... if you want... you don't have to follow G-d.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
949
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#79
Deporting (restitution) illegal immigrants is the justice part, the love/forgiveness part would be allowing them to come back legally.
You'd only be doing the justice part. However, you did no forgiveness part... forgiveness means you... well, forgive which means you'd pay the costs of their trespass. For example, if I owe you 500$... and I come up to you say... please forgive me... I can't feed myself or family... I'll eventually pay you back that money... then you as a proper Christian should forgive me. You pay the costs of that 500$ and let it go due to sympathy to me. The justice part there is done in that you paid the costs... and the forgiveness part is at the same time done. That's practically what Jesus did. These are the kind of situations we need to look for, these are seemly good conditions for forgiveness... a lawbreaker in these conditions is a lawbreaker I'd like to forgive.

This is the word of G-d... it's not me

Matthew 18:21-35


The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. [SUP]24 [/SUP]As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[SUP][b][/SUP] was brought to him. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[SUP][c][/SUP] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. [SUP]31 [/SUP]When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ [SUP]34 [/SUP]In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
949
43
28
#80
IMHO, If you feel that we should allow someone who entered the country illegally to remain in this country, sponsor that person, and provide the resources necessary to ensure that he/she can survive without government assistance.
Great idea... now your thinking like Jesus... in how he provided all that was necessary for salvation.

If the illegal can't work... bad legs, arms, and can't think properly, then that's something we should look to do. Of course, if he or she can work, then he or she can do something for me to help me out. It's a good thing I know there are online jobs where the illegal can work outside of the country.