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ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,074
739
113
you would like to be taken seriously

so you respond like this to someone else

smh
Oh, they wanted to be taken seriously when they tell us that one of the two witnesses, is Enoch? What covenant is Enoch part of? Noah, Abraham, Moses? Why would God send Enoch during the tribulation, so he can tell us about angels? Sorry, if they want to be treated seriously do some serious work.

Moses and Elijah, the two who were seen on the mount of Transfiguration, the two who represent the law and the prophets, the word that is the witness of God.

The Lord told us that you study the word and yet won't come to Him and yet it is this very word that testifies concerning Him. That is what we will need during the tribulation.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
6,104
1,048
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No. I could speculate but that would be tempting for others who want to find fault.

Ok then so far the devil was cast out of heaven with his angels(Rev.12:13) and into the earth,,,Both the political parties (R's and D's) are working with the beast to set up the mark and we don't know whose who in the government nor if their men, fallen angels or if one of them is the devil. What makes you think that this is whats going on at all?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
36,154
13,449
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66
Tennessee
Oh, they wanted to be taken seriously when they tell us that one of the two witnesses, is Enoch? What covenant is Enoch part of? Noah, Abraham, Moses? Why would God send Enoch during the tribulation, so he can tell us about angels? Sorry, if they want to be treated seriously do some serious work.

Moses and Elijah, the two who were seen on the mount of Transfiguration, the two who represent the law and the prophets, the word that is the witness of God.

The Lord told us that you study the word and yet won't come to Him and yet it is this very word that testifies concerning Him. That is what we will need during the tribulation.
Moses being one of the two witnesses is problematic because the Two Witnesses are put to death at the 3 1/2 year mark of the tribulation. The thing is, Moses has already died and was buried by the Lord at a location that remains unknown.

Elijah might be a bit problematic too as a Witness because while there was mentioned that he is going to return there is also mentioned that he has already returned in the form of John the Baptist. It could be that his return was meant to be in a figurative sense and not literal.

What I am certain of, based on scripture is that the Two Witnesses are literal, are an integral part of end-time events, are still alive, and will be put to death at the half-way mark of tribulation.

Regarding Elijah, yeah, despite the apparent contrary scripture, I believe that he plays an integral part of end-time events too.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,304
790
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[
Moses being one of the two witnesses is problematic because the Two Witnesses are put to death at the 3 1/2 year mark of the tribulation. The thing is, Moses has already died and was buried by the Lord at a location that remains unknown.

Elijah might be a bit problematic too as a Witness because while there was mentioned that he is going to return there is also mentioned that he has already returned in the form of John the Baptist. It could be that his return was meant to be in a figurative sense and not literal.

What I am certain of, based on scripture is that the Two Witnesses are literal, are an integral part of end-time events, are still alive, and will be put to death at the half-way mark of tribulation.

Regarding Elijah, yeah, despite the apparent contrary scripture, I believe that he plays an integral part of end-time events too.
Elijah returning could be BOTH - figurative in the mouth and calling upon John the Baptist (his name was John, not Elijah).
and literal when, if, he returns as One of the Two Witnesses.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,074
739
113
Moses being one of the two witnesses is problematic because the Two Witnesses are put to death at the 3 1/2 year mark of the tribulation. The thing is, Moses has already died and was buried by the Lord at a location that remains unknown.

Elijah might be a bit problematic too as a Witness because while there was mentioned that he is going to return there is also mentioned that he has already returned in the form of John the Baptist. It could be that his return was meant to be in a figurative sense and not literal.

What I am certain of, based on scripture is that the Two Witnesses are literal, are an integral part of end-time events, are still alive, and will be put to death at the half-way mark of tribulation.

Regarding Elijah, yeah, despite the apparent contrary scripture, I believe that he plays an integral part of end-time events too.
I think it is very persuasive from Scripture, from Rabbinical teaching and from Jesus' word that Elijah must be one of the two witnesses and that John the Baptist was Elijah who is to come. Which is problematic since John had his head chopped off. I really can't see how anyone can put forth Elijah as one of the two witnesses and then say we have a problem with Moses because he died already.

So how do you have Enoch and Elijah? Because Moses already died? Doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Which of course raises a whole new issue, do these two come as full grown men or are they born and live among us as John the Baptist did. If that is the case then what is the point?

To me the only point is that you need your vessel filled with oil from the word, if you don't have that at the time of the first rapture you need to go to someone who is trustworthy and get it from them. You need to be filled with the living word of God.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
36,154
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66
Tennessee
[


Elijah returning could be BOTH - figurative in the mouth and calling upon John the Baptist (his name was John, not Elijah).
and literal when, if, he returns as One of the Two Witnesses.
I believe along this line of reasoning as well.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,304
790
113
I think it is very persuasive from Scripture, from Rabbinical teaching and from Jesus' word that Elijah must be one of the two witnesses and that John the Baptist was Elijah who is to come. Which is problematic since John had his head chopped off. I really can't see how anyone can put forth Elijah as one of the two witnesses and then say we have a problem with Moses because he died already.
Excellent point. Yes, we know and believe Jesus said: and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Some things to ponder:
Elizabeth and Zechariah's gifted baby was not named Elijah. In fact, the Angel said he must be called John. - Luke 1:13
I am not contradicting the Lord Jesus, only pointing out truth.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,074
739
113
Enoch is listed in Hebrews 11, he was a man of faith, he is a type of the rapture, and he has given us valuable insights into the angels which has been referred to by three of the New Testament writers, so I conclude that is God saying we can trust what Enoch said to be the word from God.

However, it is not our covenant with God. Never are we told that we need to know the books of Enoch. However, we are told repeatedly that we need to know the word that will bring us salvation. That is what the two witnesses are there to do, that is what these ones during the tribulation need. We will be judged based upon our covenant with God, not based upon the books of Enoch.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,304
790
113
Enoch is listed in Hebrews 11, he was a man of faith, he is a type of the rapture, and he has given us valuable insights into the angels which has been referred to by three of the New Testament writers, so I conclude that is God saying we can trust what Enoch said to be the word from God.

However, it is not our covenant with God. Never are we told that we need to know the books of Enoch. However, we are told repeatedly that we need to know the word that will bring us salvation. That is what the two witnesses are there to do, that is what these ones during the tribulation need. We will be judged based upon our covenant with God, not based upon the books of Enoch.
You said: However, it is not our covenant with God.

In GREAT love i am saying this is wrong for YOUR benefit. I am NOT attacking. You say excellent things.
Ponder this and you will rejoice.
Peace

I AGREE with the part you said: Never are we told that we need to know the books of Enoch.
But that is NOT what i a referring to in Enoch.
Clue: Only think from scripture - not the book of Enoch.
You will REJOICE in it for IT IS OUR COVENANT with GOD..........
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,304
790
113
Enoch is listed in Hebrews 11, he was a man of faith, he is a type of the rapture, and he has given us valuable insights into the angels which has been referred to by three of the New Testament writers, so I conclude that is God saying we can trust what Enoch said to be the word from God.

However, it is not our covenant with God. Never are we told that we need to know the books of Enoch. However, we are told repeatedly that we need to know the word that will bring us salvation. That is what the two witnesses are there to do, that is what these ones during the tribulation need. We will be judged based upon our covenant with God, not based upon the books of Enoch.
This must be repeated - PLEASE read slowly - do not jump to conclusions - Love
You said: However, it is not our covenant with God.

In GREAT love i am saying this is wrong for YOUR benefit. I am NOT attacking. You say excellent things.
Ponder this and you will rejoice.
Peace

I AGREE with the part you said: Never are we told that we need to know the books of Enoch.
But that is NOT what i a referring to in Enoch.
Clue: Only think from scripture - not the book of Enoch.
You will REJOICE in it for IT IS OUR COVENANT with GOD......... HALLELUJAH
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,074
739
113
The Two Witnesses

John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John the Baptist, who was Elijah who is to come, came to testify concerning the light that through him all might believe. This is what the two witnesses do during the tribulation.

John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

The scriptures, the law and the prophets, testify concerning Jesus. They are the two witnesses.

Luke 9:30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.

His departure -- his crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension? Yes, all of that is spoken of in the law and prophets. How about the way of salvation? Yes. These are our two witnesses, not men. The men who deliver this are irrelevant. What is a witness, the only thing that is relevant is what they witnessed, not who they are.

Revelation 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

To prophesy means to speak forth, to speak for, and to speak beforehand. A press secretary is a "prophet" for the president. The witnesses are simply the press secretary for Jesus.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,074
739
113
The Two Witnesses

John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John the Baptist, who was Elijah who is to come, came to testify concerning the light that through him all might believe. This is what the two witnesses do during the tribulation.

John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

The scriptures, the law and the prophets, testify concerning Jesus. They are the two witnesses.

Luke 9:30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.

His departure -- his crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension? Yes, all of that is spoken of in the law and prophets. How about the way of salvation? Yes. These are our two witnesses, not men. The men who deliver this are irrelevant. What is a witness, the only thing that is relevant is what they witnessed, not who they are.

Revelation 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

To prophesy means to speak forth, to speak for, and to speak beforehand. A press secretary is a "prophet" for the president. The witnesses are simply the press secretary for Jesus.

The Lord already told us that His two witnesses are the Law and the prophets.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,304
790
113
The Two Witnesses

John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John the Baptist, who was Elijah who is to come, came to testify concerning the light that through him all might believe. This is what the two witnesses do during the tribulation.

John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

The scriptures, the law and the prophets, testify concerning Jesus. They are the two witnesses.

Luke 9:30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.

His departure -- his crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension? Yes, all of that is spoken of in the law and prophets. How about the way of salvation? Yes. These are our two witnesses, not men. The men who deliver this are irrelevant. What is a witness, the only thing that is relevant is what they witnessed, not who they are.

Revelation 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

To prophesy means to speak forth, to speak for, and to speak beforehand. A press secretary is a "prophet" for the president. The witnesses are simply the press secretary for Jesus.
Amen - All this is true
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,304
790
113
The Lord already told us that His two witnesses are the Law and the prophets.
This must be repeated - PLEASE read slowly - do not jump to conclusions - Love
You said in post #1553: However, it is not our covenant with God.

In GREAT love i am saying this is wrong for YOUR benefit. I am NOT attacking. You say excellent things.
Ponder this and you will rejoice.
Peace

I AGREE with the part you said: Never are we told that we need to know the books of Enoch.
But that is NOT what i a referring to in Enoch.
Clue: Only think from scripture - not the book of Enoch.
You will REJOICE in it for IT IS OUR COVENANT with GOD......... HALLELUJAH
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,710
2,133
113
Oh, they wanted to be taken seriously when they tell us that one of the two witnesses, is Enoch? What covenant is Enoch part of? Noah, Abraham, Moses? Why would God send Enoch during the tribulation, so he can tell us about angels? Sorry, if they want to be treated seriously do some serious work.

Moses and Elijah, the two who were seen on the mount of Transfiguration, the two who represent the law and the prophets, the word that is the witness of God.

The Lord told us that you study the word and yet won't come to Him and yet it is this very word that testifies concerning Him. That is what we will need during the tribulation.
I didn't read that

I just read your response

apparently we are just not up to your classic self promotion...take it with a grain of salt there

one mistake leads to another I suppose :unsure: hope God does not send the wrong ones tho...

chill!