Pope wants to change the Lord's prayer
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We have two threads on the same subject so maybe admin should delete one of them just for a more efficient conversation but I'll add my opinion here as well...
I can kinda see his point because it's not God who tempts us rather it's our own personal desires that tempt us but I wouldn't go changing scriptures over a semantics issue.
I can kinda see his point because it's not God who tempts us rather it's our own personal desires that tempt us but I wouldn't go changing scriptures over a semantics issue.
we thought that everybody, Christians', know 'who' is the 'source' of ALL TEMPTATION'...
can anybody imaging God tempting Himself?!?!? (wilderness-pinnacle)
oh how we Love our Saviour for giving us, using Himself and His own to give us all
the 'examples' that we, mere beasts need in order to be a part of His Master Plan...
can anybody imaging God tempting Himself?!?!? (wilderness-pinnacle)
oh how we Love our Saviour for giving us, using Himself and His own to give us all
the 'examples' that we, mere beasts need in order to be a part of His Master Plan...
The Bible says the Roman Empire will not lose their dominion until God puts them down,and the saints possess the kingdom.
The beast kingdom in the future is the dominion of the Roman Empire,that has the Babylonian spirit,which the Bible says she will never have dominion again,but her ways are still on earth.
Since the Vatican,and the Roman Catholic Church,is their religious institution they will make changes so in the future the Pope can be the spiritual leader,and the Vatican the headquarters,of a unified religious system,saying all religions have a core truth,which anybody that seeks the will of God on earth even though they do not accept Jesus is saved.
Mystery Babylon the mother of all the false religions of the world,and a false interpretation of Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,included.
The beast kingdom in the future is the dominion of the Roman Empire,that has the Babylonian spirit,which the Bible says she will never have dominion again,but her ways are still on earth.
Since the Vatican,and the Roman Catholic Church,is their religious institution they will make changes so in the future the Pope can be the spiritual leader,and the Vatican the headquarters,of a unified religious system,saying all religions have a core truth,which anybody that seeks the will of God on earth even though they do not accept Jesus is saved.
Mystery Babylon the mother of all the false religions of the world,and a false interpretation of Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,included.
Matthew 6:
9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil.
For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
(ABP+) SoG3779 thenG3767 you pray!G4336 G1473 Our father,G3962 G1473
the oneG3588 inG1722 theG3588 heavens,G3772 sanctifyG37 G3588
your name!G3686 G1473
(KJV+) After this mannerG3779 thereforeG3767 prayG4336 ye:G5210 OurG2257
FatherG3962 whichG3588 art inG1722 heaven,G3772 HallowedG37 be thyG4675
name.G3686
9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil.
For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
(ABP+) SoG3779 thenG3767 you pray!G4336 G1473 Our father,G3962 G1473
the oneG3588 inG1722 theG3588 heavens,G3772 sanctifyG37 G3588
your name!G3686 G1473
(KJV+) After this mannerG3779 thereforeG3767 prayG4336 ye:G5210 OurG2257
FatherG3962 whichG3588 art inG1722 heaven,G3772 HallowedG37 be thyG4675
name.G3686
dcontroversal,
I always appreciate your orthodox positions on things.
So I'm going to analyze and nitpick something a bit, but I don't want you to take it as anything more than it is.
My point is only to discuss and clarify some messy things.
The word "test" can be used in many different ways.
If we define the word "test" in the same way it's used in scripture when referring to humans,
I think we'll find that the concept of "temptation" usually falls within the concept of testing, as an intrinsic subset.
So what did that mean?
It just means that when a human is tested morally, that is going to include temptation.
Alright, here it goes:
1. In scripture, when we talk about "testing" of people, we aren't really using your above definition of testing.
We're using a more specific definition, a definition which is specific to the context.
This more specific and contextual definition really means something more like, "to establish quality or performance based on MORALS, or ABILITY TO OBEY GOD."
So we aren't just testing some thing in general, we're specifically testing HUMANS, and we're specifically testing their MORALS, or their ABILITY TO OBEY GOD.
2. If we define "testing" a bit more narrowly like this, so it now actually refers to what the scripture is referring to, we'll begin to see this has certain ramifications and implications.
When we test a bit of gold for purity, we aren't at all doing the same thing as when we test a human's obedience to God.
With the gold, we aren't concerned with it's morality, or it's ethics.
But with a person, we are concerned with PRECISELY those things.
And so... the testing, and the measuring devices, are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
3. When we test a person's morals, or their "ability to obey God", we have to use a test that can test that... and so we end up with a test which INTRINSICALLY REQUIRES some kind of temptation.
There is no other way to test a person's morals, or their "ability to obey God."
The ONLY way to test morals, is to create a situation where the morals have opportunity to respond in either way, good or bad... and thus the necessity of temptation.
The test itself requires some kind of temptation for the test to even occur.
4. I think the normal orthodox view here (if we break it down) is to say that God does the "testing", but he allows Satan, or the man's own heart, to provide the actual "temptation."
In this way God creates or allows the testing, which MUST contain temptation for a test to occur, but God doesn't directly provide the temptation.
I think this would be the normal orthodox view.