Right to die: Belgian doctors rule depressed 24-year-old woman has right to end her l

[Romolomo]

I know you are an atheist but there is One who does give life
Otherwise, life comes from randomness, is sustained by randomness and why not let go randomly?

Everybody has the human ability for choice, and to believe in God or not is part of that choice. I don't believe. That's my choice. It's my choice for a variety of reasons, of course, reasons I can rationalize. Reasons I trust. Reasons I believe in and reasons I consider true.

You do believe. That's your choice. And you believe for a variety of reasons, too. Reasons you consider reliable, reasons that are true to you.

We've both made choices. we both consider them true and right. Yet they conflict. We have the ability for that. To believe different things and to believe them sincerely. People also have the human ability to commit suicide. That can be a choice that we can make, too. That ability, whether you believe suicide to be right or wrong, is a human ability that people can and do utilize, for a variety of reasons. Reasons that I'm sure the suicidal consider to be true, just as much as we consider our respective views to be true.

And if not everyone believes in God, not everyone believes that suicide has afterlife consequences. And people are, by the right of free thought that supersedes all belief, allowed to not believe in God. By their right of free thought, they can believe they need to die. They can totally believe it, in fact. And if you can be sure there is a God, and I can be sure their isn't, then somebody can definitely be sure they need to die.

If it's my life, then it's my life. It's my view. It's my belief. I'm not asking for the right to end the life of someone else, I'm utilizing a natural physical right and ability to end my own life. Nobody can stop me in that, not really. Unless of course I'm a vegetable; I spend my days looking at four walls; I can't speak; I can't move; I can't cry, and I have no respite. In which case you can certainly hook me up to machines and protect the sanctity of my life by artificially prolonging the endless, nauseating suffering. Of course, nobody really WANTS to die, though. Nobody really prefers to die if they think they can be happy, and I'm certain that everybody would rather be happy, than die. But for some people, dying is better.

 

[crossnote]

Everybody has the human ability for choice, and to believe in God or not is part of that choice. I don't believe. That's my choice. It's my choice for a variety of reasons, of course, reasons I can rationalize. Reasons I trust. Reasons I believe in and reasons I consider true.

You do believe. That's your choice. And you believe for a variety of reasons, too. Reasons you consider reliable, reasons that are true to you.

We've both made choices. we both consider them true and right. Yet they conflict. We have the ability for that. To believe different things and to believe them sincerely. People also have the human ability to commit suicide. That can be a choice that we can make, too. That ability, whether you believe suicide to be right or wrong, is a human ability that people can and do utilize, for a variety of reasons. Reasons that I'm sure the suicidal consider to be true, just as much as we consider our respective views to be true.

And if not everyone believes in God, not everyone believes that suicide has afterlife consequences. And people are, by the right of free thought that supersedes all belief, allowed to not believe in God. By their right of free thought, they can believe they need to die. They can totally believe it, in fact. And if you can be sure there is a God, and I can be sure their isn't, then somebody can definitely be sure they need to die.

If it's my life, then it's my life. It's my view. It's my belief. I'm not asking for the right to end the life of someone else, I'm utilizing a natural physical right and ability to end my own life. Nobody can stop me in that, not really. Unless of course I'm a vegetable; I spend my days looking at four walls; I can't speak; I can't move; I can't cry, and I have no respite. In which case you can certainly hook me up to machines and protect the sanctity of my life by artificially prolonging the endless, nauseating suffering. Of course, nobody really WANTS to die, though. Nobody really prefers to die if they think they can be happy, and I'm certain that everybody would rather be happy, than die. But for some people, dying is better.

But in an atheistic world of randomness, isn't choice meaningless and even non existent, since we are the product of randomness, controlled by random events and so go poof randomly. (forgive my poetical expressions).

 

[Romolomo]

But in an atheistic world of randomness, isn't choice meaningless and even non existent, since we are the product of randomness, controlled by random events and so go poof randomly. (forgive my poetical expressions).

You are asking if choice is meaningless. Above which threshold does a thing such as choice have innate meaning? Below which threshold does it cease to have any? It seems to me that for a Christian trying to imagine what he might percieve choice as through atheistic eyes, everything is coloured through the Christian eyes first. You must realize that just because I don't believe in God, does not mean I consider everything worthless. You, it seems, would without God consider choice meaningless. That is the problem with viewing the atheistic worldview through Christian eyes. It is the same problem that arises when a person tries to view the life of a young Jewish girl in Nazi Germany named Anne Frank through contemporary eyes that read her diary.

We may gather some idea of it, of what it is to be oppressed, but I'm quite sure none of us will ever understand the feelings. Can you know what feelings arise in a gay man in 1800's Ireland by reading Oscar Wilde?

 

[Romolomo]

That the Earth is a product of the conditions of the universe and that we, sentient beings, have become against what odds, is in itself a progenitor of great meaning in the mind of me, an atheist.

 

[Jimbone]

My sister has often said this with regards to a mutual relative who is always threatening to fly to Europe to get someone to kill him because of his miserable life.

She says, "If they are not comatose or a quadrapelegic, then they should figure out how to take their own life, and get the guts to do it."

I am not that radical. Part of my ministry is helping people with depression. Suicide (state sanctioned or otherwise!) is a long term solution to a short term problem.

It scares me that this will jump the pond, and Canada will start executing depressed people. And they can recover, they really can! I know I did!

Amen, and double Amen! The worst depression I ever felt in my life, that had me wanting to kill myself every 5 minutes every day for 2 years, and eventually lead to me realizing I could do NOTHING at all about it, is what God used to pull me in and regenerate me, and this when I already thought I was a Christian. Honestly I don’t know how else I could have ever dropped my pride without this exact set of circumstances. I know how bad life can suck, but it’s not always for nothing (or dare I say ever). I pray God uses these feelings to draw these people to Him as well. All things are for His glory even when we can’t understand how.

 

[crossnote]

You are asking if choice is meaningless. Above which threshold does a thing such as choice have innate meaning? Below which threshold does it cease to have any? It seems to me that for a Christian trying to imagine what he might percieve choice as through atheistic eyes, everything is coloured through the Christian eyes first. You must realize that just because I don't believe in God, does not mean I consider everything worthless. You, it seems, would without God consider choice meaningless. That is the problem with viewing the atheistic worldview through Christian eyes. It is the same problem that arises when a person tries to view the life of a young Jewish girl in Nazi Germany named Anne Frank through contemporary eyes that read her diary.

We may gather some idea of it, of what it is to be oppressed, but I'm quite sure none of us will ever understand the feelings. Can you know what feelings arise in a gay man in 1800's Ireland by reading Oscar Wilde?

Ah, but many of us have been atheists or agnostics (and some have been gays etc.) before so have the advantage of seeing thru both eyes whereas you have never been born again and cannot comprehend seeing through our eyes

 

[crossnote]

That the Earth is a product of the conditions of the universe and that we, sentient beings, have become against what odds, is in itself a progenitor of great meaning in the mind of me, an atheist.

"From randomness you have come to randomness you will go...ultimately all is meaningless"
Angst of an atheist.

 

[maxwel]

Everybody has the human ability for choice, and to believe in God or not is part of that choice. I don't believe. That's my choice. It's my choice for a variety of reasons, of course, reasons I can rationalize. Reasons I trust. Reasons I believe in and reasons I consider true.

You do believe. That's your choice. And you believe for a variety of reasons, too. Reasons you consider reliable, reasons that are true to you.

We've both made choices. we both consider them true and right. Yet they conflict. We have the ability for that. To believe different things and to believe them sincerely. People also have the human ability to commit suicide. That can be a choice that we can make, too. That ability, whether you believe suicide to be right or wrong, is a human ability that people can and do utilize, for a variety of reasons. Reasons that I'm sure the suicidal consider to be true, just as much as we consider our respective views to be true.

And if not everyone believes in God, not everyone believes that suicide has afterlife consequences. And people are, by the right of free thought that supersedes all belief, allowed to not believe in God. By their right of free thought, they can believe they need to die. They can totally believe it, in fact. And if you can be sure there is a God, and I can be sure their isn't, then somebody can definitely be sure they need to die.

If it's my life, then it's my life. It's my view. It's my belief. I'm not asking for the right to end the life of someone else, I'm utilizing a natural physical right and ability to end my own life. Nobody can stop me in that, not really. Unless of course I'm a vegetable; I spend my days looking at four walls; I can't speak; I can't move; I can't cry, and I have no respite. In which case you can certainly hook me up to machines and protect the sanctity of my life by artificially prolonging the endless, nauseating suffering. Of course, nobody really WANTS to die, though. Nobody really prefers to die if they think they can be happy, and I'm certain that everybody would rather be happy, than die. But for some people, dying is better.

If you want to wander off somewhere and kill yourself, that's fine by me.

The problem is when we make it legal to "assist" people in their suicide.

If the police walk in and find your neighbor with his hands around the neck of your cold, lifeless body...
he can just say, "Oh, hi there, I was just helping my friend. He wanted to die."

Before we laugh this off, there are already MANY detailed reports of doctors assisting in suicides where they never even got proper authorization from the patient. So what does that mean? Well, we have no idea.

But I sure wouldn't want to a be a patient there.

Forget matters of morality for a minute.
Allowing other people to "assist" in suicide is just STUPID.
It can ONLY go wrong eventually.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Everybody has the human ability for choice, and to believe in God or not is part of that choice. I don't believe. That's my choice. It's my choice for a variety of reasons, of course, reasons I can rationalize. Reasons I trust. Reasons I believe in and reasons I consider true.

Can you explain to me why you, a non-believer, willingly joins a Christian forum/message board?

 

[Romolomo]

If you want to wander off somewhere and kill yourself, that's fine by me.

The problem is when we make it legal to "assist" people in their suicide.

If the police walk in and find your neighbor with his hands around the neck of your cold, lifeless body...
he can just say, "Oh, hi there, I was just helping my friend. He wanted to die."

That problem is easily negated by allowing only trained health professionals in the witness of several other individuals to practice euthanasia. But that people might murder isn't your real problem with the practice. It is that the practice goes against your religious beliefs.

Before we laugh this off, there are already MANY detailed reports of doctors assisting in suicides where they never even got proper authorization from the patient. So what does that mean? Well, we have no idea.

Perhaps in South America, for instance, but in Western countries, there are strict legislatures to protect patients. There must be will, consent, familial and legal witness.

But I sure wouldn't want to a be a patient there.

Forget matters of morality for a minute.
Allowing other people to "assist" in suicide is just STUPID.
It can ONLY go wrong eventually.

Medicine always goes wrong. Practitioners today can euthanize terminal patients via morphine, with practical immunity because of the difficulty in detecting foul play. I do think that forcing terminal people, or ill people, or people in intense pain or suffering, to live against their wills, or even artificially, is morally less desireable than allowing euthanasia.

Our opinions clearly differ on the matter.

 

[Romolomo]

Can you explain to me why you, a non-believer, willingly joins a Christian forum/message board?

I don't have to, nor will I. I can join whichever site I wish, for whichever reasons I like. This isn't a Christian only site, nor are you its arbiter or owner.

 

[Romolomo]

Ah, but many of us have been atheists or agnostics (and some have been gays etc.) before so have the advantage of seeing thru both eyes whereas you have never been born again and cannot comprehend seeing through our eyes

You can't have been a true atheist if you believe in God. I imagine that one day, you decided to blame God or become angry at God. In that, you first must believe in him.

I don't get angry at God. I get angry at the universe. Then I calm down, realize existential undirected anger is pointless, and I look for what's really bothering me.

 

[Jimbone]

Everybody has the human ability for choice, and to believe in God or not is part of that choice. I don't believe. That's my choice. It's my choice for a variety of reasons, of course, reasons I can rationalize. Reasons I trust. Reasons I believe in and reasons I consider true.

You do believe. That's your choice. And you believe for a variety of reasons, too. Reasons you consider reliable, reasons that are true to you.

We've both made choices. we both consider them true and right. Yet they conflict. We have the ability for that. To believe different things and to believe them sincerely. People also have the human ability to commit suicide. That can be a choice that we can make, too. That ability, whether you believe suicide to be right or wrong, is a human ability that people can and do utilize, for a variety of reasons. Reasons that I'm sure the suicidal consider to be true, just as much as we consider our respective views to be true.

And if not everyone believes in God, not everyone believes that suicide has afterlife consequences. And people are, by the right of free thought that supersedes all belief, allowed to not believe in God. By their right of free thought, they can believe they need to die. They can totally believe it, in fact. And if you can be sure there is a God, and I can be sure their isn't, then somebody can definitely be sure they need to die.

If it's my life, then it's my life. It's my view. It's my belief. I'm not asking for the right to end the life of someone else, I'm utilizing a natural physical right and ability to end my own life. Nobody can stop me in that, not really. Unless of course I'm a vegetable; I spend my days looking at four walls; I can't speak; I can't move; I can't cry, and I have no respite. In which case you can certainly hook me up to machines and protect the sanctity of my life by artificially prolonging the endless, nauseating suffering. Of course, nobody really WANTS to die, though. Nobody really prefers to die if they think they can be happy, and I'm certain that everybody would rather be happy, than die. But for some people, dying is better.

Well to be honest everyone does have that right, and always have had it, but now what? We have to "make" people say it's ok to kill yourself? I don't get that at all, you or anyone else has always had the choice to go kill themselves, and guess what? They do it all the time I know 3 people that have done so, but what this is, seems to me, to be wanting people to say "it's ok if you want to kill yourself, in fact the doctors should HAVE to help you with it just in case you're too scared to do it yourself". I think that’s ridiculous and one more thing to add to the "call evil good and good evil", end times prediction in the Bible from my point of view.

 

[crossnote]

You can't have been a true atheist if you believe in God. I imagine that one day, you decided to blame God or become angry at God. In that, you first must believe in him.

I don't get angry at God. I get angry at the universe. Then I calm down, realize existential undirected anger is pointless, and I look for what's really bothering me.

many well known atheists (i was agnostic and am an unknown) have testified of their atheism BEFORE their conversion to faith in Jesus Christ. My father at 90 still is an atheist, I know the mindset quite well.

 

[Romolomo]

many well known atheists (i was agnostic and am an unknown) have testified of their atheism BEFORE their conversion to faith in Jesus Christ. My father at 90 still is an atheist, I know the mindset quite well.

Well I wouldn't say one atheist's mindset is exactly the same as another's, anyway. Mine is clearly different to yours.

 

[crossnote]

Well I wouldn't say one atheist's mindset is exactly the same as another's, anyway. Mine is clearly different to yours.

Again, my point is I and many others have personally seen both sides...you have only seen one side.

 

[Romolomo]

Again, my point is I and many others have personally seen both sides...you have only seen one side.

You asked me a question. I answered it. The idea of choice isn't meaningless to me. Was it meaningless to you, back when you were atheist? I assume it was, otherwise you mightn't have asked me the question. If it wasn't, why'd you bother asking? lol

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I don't have to, nor will I. I can join whichever site I wish, for whichever reasons I like. This isn't a Christian only site, nor are you its arbiter or owner.

Calm down. It wasn't an adversarial question.

And as to your statements, agreed on all counts. However, to come into a group that believes in the Bible, in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and espouse an opposing ideology makes little sense -- unless, of course, you're looking for Him but don't want ot admit it.