Russia outlaws homosexual indoctrination of children by adults.

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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#81
Yes, thanks for piling on zone. Russia and the Slavic countries emerged from nearly a century of persecution under state atheism in which 20 million (almost all Orthodox) died for their faith including hundreds of thousands of priests for refusing to compromise the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a godless atheistic totalitarian regime.

But you three have them deceived by the devil and burning in hell as heretics. How lovely of you. Maybe not next time since nothing could be further from the truth.
the russian orthodox church has been a tool of the russian state since it was first established...it was no different under communism...in fact it was the communists who attempted to eliminate every christian church in russia -except- for the russian orthodox church...

if you want to see persecuted russian christians...look at the russian catholic church and the protestant churches in russia...all of which were either forcibly incorporated into the russian orthodox church or disbanded entirely...the russian orthodox church had no objection to the persecution of -other- denominations...

the russian orthodox church more or less owes its present day domination of russian 'christianity' to the old communist regime...

there was actually a 'russian orthodox church outside russia' founded because the russian orthodox church had totally given itself over to infiltration and control by the russian security services including the KGB...infiltration that to this day has not been addressed or remedied or for the most part even acknowledged...

the truth is that infiltration and control by organs of the russian state has been the natural character of the russian orthodox church throughout its history...it didn't matter who controlled the state...whether the tsars or the communists or putin's chekists...

even calling it the 'russian orthodox church' is giving it too much credit...it isn't a church at all...it is just the religious arm of the kremlin...it should be called the 'russian federal bureau of religiosity'
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#82
I accept that you believe that. But I do question your Divinity credentials and your training in Russian Orthodox theology though and would like to see some of your peer reviewed scholarly publications supporting your assertion.
I don't much think God's peers have much on him.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#83
Yes, thanks for piling on zone. Russia and the Slavic countries emerged from nearly a century of persecution under state atheism in which 20 million (almost all Orthodox) died for their faith including hundreds of thousands of priests for refusing to compromise the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a godless atheistic totalitarian regime.
You mean that gospel of works?

I guess for a semi-pelagian, there isn't much difference.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#84
Yes, thanks for piling on zone. Russia and the Slavic countries emerged from nearly a century of persecution under state atheism in which 20 million (almost all Orthodox) died for their faith including hundreds of thousands of priests for refusing to compromise the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a godless atheistic totalitarian regime.

But you three have them deceived by the devil and burning in hell as heretics. How lovely of you. Maybe not next time since nothing could be further from the truth.
calm your show AoK.
we can discuss foundations and doctrines of the instiutions of the EO and RO churches.
if you'll take a breath, you'll recall i said The Lord has many people in many cities.

i don't brush all Catholics into the bin (as is the manner of some), nor all Eastern Catholic or Orthodox individuals.
i said the Orthodox church is gnosticky - and it is.

i'm very well aware of the persecution under the commies.

i hope you are aware some of the RO church leadership are KGB and co-operated with the commies.

that's fact.

the flock is another matter; and is always another matter for me.
there are saved people in many denominations.

alrighty?
we could start a rational thread on doctrines and practices if you like.

i personally think Russia is moving in the right direction (though they're still so secretive it's hard to say, politically).
just as i believe Iran (GASP) is moving in the right direction with it's refusal to permit pornography and degradation they see in the west.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#85
Brother Andrew Murray (e.g. God's Smuggler) and Open Doors who has worked closely with the Russian Orthodox Church since 1957 says the opposite, that the Russian Orthodox Church is filled with genuine spirit-filled believers who have been refined through persecution.
unfortunately the russian orthodox church has a lot of people fooled...mainly through unverifiable hearsay about 'persecution' that really was never anywhere near as severe as claimed...as well as totally farcical claims of doctrinal orthodoxy...

but then those KGB people always have been good at propaganda...
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
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#86
Well, Geometar actually showed me some truth as far as the takeover of the Orthodox church by the communists.
I thought, (since they seemed to be so liturgical, ceremonial, and frankly pretentious); that they were always hand in hand with the stone cold dead atheist state.
But he corrected me, and I looked it up and he was right.
The communists killed any priest who wouldn't go along with the regime. - (It turned out to be thousands of them).
- So I think it is dangerous to make broad accusations about such a large and diffuse group of people, - - (Russian Christians).
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#87
Rachel, all 70 million Christians in the Russian Orthodox Church (especially all those spirit-filled born again old ladies who have dedicated their lives to serving Jesus Christ in Russia) are not apostate, unsaved, and on their way to hell and the entire Russian Orthodox church is not a puppet of the Russian state.

Though infiltration and collusion has occurred in their history (with Tsar Peter and the Soviet Union being the worst excesses) and still does occur to a lesser degree today, you have grossly overstated the situation; there appears to be a great deal you don't know (such as historical position of the ROC as the voice of the people in checking the power of the czars into antiquity, etc...); and you have wrongly condemned millions of genuine Christian priests and parishioners in your ignorance and stubborn prejudice.

Since I don't even believe you know much about their history, I'm going to give you guys the dime tour.

The Russians accepted the Christian faith from Constantinople where Greek was still spoken. The first Greek missionaries to the Slavs, Cyril (826–69) and Methodius (c. 815–85), devised the forerunner of the Cyrillic alphabet and presented Russia with Greek translations of biblical and liturgical texts.

For about 700 years from the conversion of Vladimir to the 18th century, the Russian Church had a rich ethical and spiritual life also blessed with a literal wealth of Greek patristic theology in Slavonic translation. Read Ilarion ‘On Law and Grace’ produced in 1051 and see the strong theoretical emphasis on the sufficiency of faith for salvation (which parallels with Lutheranism nicely though it preceded it) while exhorting a very practical insistence on good works for Christian living.

But it's true that Russian theology was hampered by oppression from the Mongols all the way through the Soviet Union and somewhat beyond. As a result, we don't see a lot of great thinkers being produced as occurred in the West with the Anselm of Canterbury, Peter Abelard, Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, and a host of others.

As Russia emerged from Mongol subjugation in the reign of the Grand Prince of Moscow, Ivan III (1462–1595), Constantinople had fallen to the Turks. Russia, with Moscow as its new power center, assumed the mantle of empire from Constantinople. The Russian Church appropriated more Greek theology at this time from the West but didn't develop it until the Protestant Reformation and the pressure of Catholic expansion in the Counter-Reformation two centuries later.

Ironically, it was at that time tsarist ideology unfortunately began to dominate Russian theology to tsarist ideology, partly explicable because of the fact that Russian theology derives from Constantinople rather than from Rome. Constantinople was never without a Christian emperor (apart from the brief reign of Julian the Apostate, 361–63) from its establishment to its fall in 1453. Consequently the patriarch of Constantinople could never claim to be the head of all Christendom as the pope did, for he always stood in the shadow of the ‘sacred’ emperor and his quasi-divine office. The patriarchy of Moscow was established in 1589, bringing the number of Eastern patriarchs back to the traditional early-church number of five (Rome being no longer counted).

At this time, Rome firmly set the direction for Russian theology for two centuries by attempting to bring the Russian church under its influence, since Russia could no longer look to Turkish-ruled Constantinople. The project was facilitated by the fact that most of what is now western Russia then belonged to Poland, or, more properly, to Lithuania, in the commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania. Poland itself was just recovering from an affair with Protestantism, in which the majority of the nobility briefly embraced the Reformation. Having brought most of the Protestants back into its fold, Catholicism turned east, where a few Polish and Lithuanian Catholics lived in the midst of an Orthodox majority. The flood of Catholic propaganda called forth an Orthodox reaction: Prince Konstantin Ostrozhsky (1526–1608) established a printing-house to publish classical Byzantine theological works in translation, and in 1581 it brought out the Ostrog Bible, the first complete Bible in Slavonic.

King Zygmunt (Sigismund) III of Poland convened a church council at Brest in 1596. The resulting Union of Brest established the unity (i.e. churches in communion with Rome but retaining their own language, liturgy, etc.) and, with mixed success, placed the Russians and Ukrainians in Zygmunt’s realm under papal hegemony.

The struggle to preserve a distinctive Orthodox tradition was waged at times in alliance with Protestantism against Roman Catholic influence, at times against Protestantism under Roman Catholic influence, and at times against both.

Then came Peter Mogila (1596-1646) publishing his Confession of Faith with Protestant emphases which was accepted in 1643 as the confession of the Eastern churches and in 1645 a Small Catechism again promoting Protestant tendencies.

Thus the situation prevailing at the end of the 17th century was one in which Russian theology, without changing its officially anti-Roman and anti-Protestant stand, was permeated with Protestant influences.

Following that came Tsar Peter the Great (1682–1721) promoting the Westernization of Russian religion in the context of his efforts to Westernize all of Russian life. The theme was a rejection of the Calvinistic bondage of the will but ‘saved by faith alone’ though faith is never ‘lonely’ but to be accompanied by good works as Ilarion had taught 600 years earlier all codified in a new Russian church constitution named the Ecclesiastical Regulations of 1721.

But tsar Peter overreached because he abolished the patriarchate and created the ‘Holy Synod’ in its stead, a move that placed the Russian Church thoroughly under imperial control.

Later in the 18th century, Platon Levshin (1737–1812) reformed this perpetuating the Protestant tendencies relying heavily on the Lutheran theologian Quenstedt. Although Levshin followed the Orthodox tradition in denouncing ‘popery, Calvinism, and Lutheranism’ as ‘devastating heresies’, in fact he held Lutheran views on the sole authority of Scripture as well as on the church as the company of believers rather than an institution.

In summary, Russian Orthodox theology has been consistently a conservative force, but while it preserved major elements of patristic Greek thought, it treated them as though they were Russian. From its very beginnings it had strongly nationalistic and eschatological overtones, assigning Russia a prominent role in the conversion of the world and in the culmination of salvation-history.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, Russian theology was deeply influenced by Protestantism, first by Lutheran scholasticism, and then by pietism. Throughout the period 1453–1801, it was never original or independent, but always borrowing, first from the Greeks, then from the Germans.

Nevertheless, it has consistently been eager to claim a special destiny for Moscow and the Russian people, whether in terms of the ‘third Rome’ (Filofei of Pskov), of the conversion of Asia (Leibniz), or in the ultimate conflicts of the end times (Jung-Stilling). Not being productive of original ideas, it has also produced very little heresy—which may help to explain the survival of the Russian Church through almost seven decades of communist oppression.

That brings us to the 19th century anyways... lol.
 
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Grey

Guest
#88
It also served as the hand of despots. Grant it some Tsars were kind, but many were downright "evil", or at least uncaring or semi-belligerent to Russia's population. Indeed, Russia was not some sort of Utopia before the Russian revolution, and of course it was in a hellish state after, but I would say the institution was at times no more moral than the catholic church.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#89
...and all the while the Russian people came to a saving faith in Jesus Christ through the Gospel and learned to live out Christ in their daily lives in the ROC.

The Russian Orthodox understanding of salvation is far removed from the sacerdotalism of Roman Catholicism and has an evangelical emphasis on God’s grace and mercy in Jesus Christ.
 
Jul 2, 2013
178
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#90
Yikes! I began here by reading this thread because it is a subject that interest, and worries me. I do know gay people. I love my gay friends. Even so, I don't support gay activist who most certainly do have an agenda. Many of them come right out and say they do, and why. Simply, I don't like the sexual indoctrination of children, by our society. You know how this happens, I don't need to spell it out.
Spell it out. How? How does this “indoctrination”happen?



Now, a small group of homosexuals want to validate themselves by introducing sexual behavior that most would never consider, if it weren't illustrated for them. What selfish people we are, and how dare anyone decide when and how my children will be told about the sex act between "people".
What?


Sorry, but that remark, "what is the consequence of love?" just isn't valid in this debate. We are talking about the real consequences of how we Act...what we do...not who we love.
A society with any sense of surviving and prospering beyond our own death, with any respect for the generations to come, will act in their best interest. School/education, is for the benefit of learning skills and knowledge that enables students to provide for their own welfare, think critically, adapt to the challenges that they will surely face. That's it. We should not attempt to convince or mold children in our image and that is exactly what the gay agenda intends. That is so obvious that it is painful to hear anyone try to deny it.
What’s painful is the silence that happens when you ask peoplemaking claims about this “agenda” to back up their claims


Now, having said that, of course we, as adults, encourage, and expect our kids to be kind and considerate of those who are different from ourselves. But we do not have to allow educators or gay rights activist , or Christians, etc. to influence our children for, or against the child's family situation. Whatever it may be, besides abusive of course.
Is vilifying a minority kind and considerate?
 
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Grey

Guest
#91
...and all the while the Russian people came to a saving faith in Jesus Christ through the Gospel and learned to live out Christ in their daily lives in the ROC.

The Russian Orthodox understanding of salvation is far removed from the sacerdotalism of Roman Catholicism and has an evangelical emphasis on God’s grace and mercy in Jesus Christ.
I mean the morality of the Orthodox bishops and priests themselves, they supported the Tsars.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#92
There is no denying that the state and the church in Russia have been tied throughout ROC history. Part of the problem, as I stated in my dime tour of their history up to the 19th century, is that from their origin they were an extension of Constantine's patriarchal tradition.

I mean the morality of the Orthodox bishops and priests themselves, they supported the Tsars.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#93
Defending a false gospel. tsk tsk.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#94
Your ignorance is bliss to you Jimmy... just not the people you injure with it.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#95
Interesting video.

[video=youtube_share;tDZ_TPAC5MA]http://youtu.be/tDZ_TPAC5MA[/video]
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#96
A pretty good article on Russia's dependency with the Eurozone and why decreased demand in Europe for Russia's exports are dampening Russia's economy.

Russia's Economy Is Rapidly Slowing And The Kremlin's Options Are Limited - Forbes

Russia's national debt is about $201,081,948,411 USD. Russia has about 143 million people. Divide $201,081,948,411 by 143 million = $1,406.17 national debt carried per person in Russia.

The USA's national debt is about $17,204,956,670,669 USD. The USA has about 314 million people. Divide $17,204,956,670,669 by 314 million = $54,792.86 of the national debt carried per person in the USA.

But look at Russia's government debt to GDP (government debt as a percent of GDP is used to measure a country's ability to make future payments on its debt among other things):

Russia Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts | Calendar

Now look at the USA's:

United States Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts

^ Holy Smokes Batman!

At least Japan is worse off but that won't save U.S.!
 
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Red_Skull

Guest
#97
Thank you, AgeofKnowledge, for making this thread and bringing up wonderful points throughout it.

I have always admired Vladimir Putin and I wish we had men like him ruling in Europe.

Christianity is alive and growing in Russia, and I am very happy about the ban on gay propaganda over there as well.
 
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Red_Skull

Guest
#98
Oh and AgeofKnowledge I try to actually LIMIT my 'likes' of your posts so I don't seem like a fanboy (lol)!

But as long as you keep up the quality in your posts the likes will keep on coming! :D
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#99
Thank you, AgeofKnowledge, for making this thread and bringing up wonderful points throughout it.

I have always admired Vladimir Putin and I wish we had men like him ruling in Europe.

Christianity is alive and growing in Russia, and I am very happy about the ban on gay propaganda over there as well.
well putin wants to rule europe too so you may get your wish...

the truth is putin is more evil than most of the communists that came before him...

and christianity is practically nonexistent in russia...russian orthodoxism is a branch of the government...not a christian church...
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
I would say the chance of Putin and Vsevolod Chaplin ruling Europe is NIL (as in no chance whatsoever). And Putin is 71 years old now and nearing the end of his political life.

But the government's growing relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) has invited speculation by some to wonder if this could possibly pose a problem to the growing protestant movement in Russia which is at 4.1% of the Russian population as of 2012 at some point in the future because most of the protestant growth has been at the expense of the ROC.

Also there are some extreme religious cults, though with few members, reported to be operating in Russia which could act as bad propaganda for non-ROC Christian elements to the populace. And, protestants tend to be viewed as Western influenced to a degree though the ROC itself has been materially influenced by Protestant thought ironically from their Greek roots.

But that's speculation at this point. The real problem as many protestants see it is if the ROC restores their broken communion with Rome and begins hammering out accords.

Time will tell what happens.

well putin wants to rule europe too so you may get your wish...

the truth is putin is more evil than most of the communists that came before him...

and christianity is practically nonexistent in russia...russian orthodoxism is a branch of the government...not a christian church...