The hatred of Jews

[Moses_Young]

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

You know Paul was a Christian, right? Your example just demonstrates my point. The believing remnant because Christians - true Jews.

I figure maybe they aren't seeing it, having trouble with their eyes. Maybe the large font will help.

Zech.
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

John
And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:36-41 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Wrong answer. No answer. Why wrong answer? Because there are THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of passages that say otherwise.
And I have proved my position over and over again with a mere handful. Irrefutably. You had NO ANSWER.

Proverbs 1:20 - 33
Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

So tell us again how the 70th week has ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED on behalf of the children of Israel for their good, TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Hebrews 7:22 - 28
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

 

[cv5]

You know Paul was a Christian, right? Your example just demonstrates my point. The believing remnant because Christians - true Jews.


Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:36-41 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Proverbs 1:20 - 33
Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Hebrews 7:22 - 28
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Another slew of swings and a misses. Tragic.

 

[cv5]

Lol. We have an answer to the 70th week, which you refuse to accept and keep pretending you can't read/hear. The 70th week ended nearly 2000 years ago, and was fulfilled just as prophesied. It came immediately after the 69th week, which most all of those without a non-Christian political agenda would agree makes the most sense of the text.

Wrong again.

The 70th week is inexorably twinned with the Second Coming.
And the destruction of the Temple in 70AD fits exactly NOWHERE in your bizarre bogus eschatology
that demands a concurrent 69th and 70th week.
Never been proven, never will be.

@GaryA and his buddy trotted out some rubbish about the 3-1/2 years of the first half of the 70th week happening at 34AD.
So their version has the Messiah cut off at 69-1/2 weeks or some such like nonsense. And some kind of gap to 70AD to complete the 70th week. Whatever. I really do not want to so much as hear any of it.
Utterly ridiculous.

[Dan 9:26 KJV]
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[Dan 9:27 KJV]
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: "

No sane human being on planet earth thinks that this has happened since the Resurrection and Ascension. Its NOWHERE in recorded history. And it certainly does not dovetail into your bogus eschatology either.

 

[cv5]

What is your answer @GaryA @TabinRivCA @Romans34 @Moses_Young ?

[Dan 9:26 KJV]
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[Dan 9:27 KJV]
And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: "

No sane human being on planet earth thinks that this has happened since the Resurrection and Ascension. It is NOWHERE in recorded history. NO GENTILE RULER (or any earthly ruler) has ever confirmed ANY 7 year covenant with the nation Israel. Or the Church for that matter. And it certainly does not dovetail into your bogus eschatology either.

==================================================================================

One verse. ONE SINGLE VERSE utterly wipes out all of your heretical eschatological pretentions.
I expect much raving, red "x"-s, denials and unintelligible flailing to be the result of this post, this much is entirely predictable.

 

[Yahshua]

lol Seven pages?!?! You are all the WORST! I remain logged on all day and nothing. But as soon as I log off then there is a FULL CONVERSATION!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You know Paul was a Christian, right? Your example just demonstrates my point. The believing remnant because Christians - true Jews.
.

You can't rip Romans 11 out of the Bible. Christians are not the true Jews. That's false, it's heresy. The Bible doesn't teach it.

 

[TabinRivCA]

OK.....I know. And Paul knows. But you DO NOT know.

Better now?

Is disseminating eschatological nonsense to be considered a serious heresy?
Yes. Yes it is. And it is cause for immediate correction. And those who are in error must be marked out and either repent or get the boot.

2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Anyhoo.....you are in the iggy penalty box too. Enjoy the camaraderie of your equally addled cognoscenti.

As I came on saying, I stand with the Jews, Messianic Jews, Christians and other citizens of Israel and their right to be there. Any doubt about it was wiped away after I saw God's hand in their defense during the onslaught of wars on them. If you're talking Rapture, I believe it's coming soon and am doing my bid here in the world while I can. As for the 70 wk and dates business, I'm not getting into that as it's not a point of salvation or are any of these other issues. Yes, we all will have to answer before God for our words but my job isn't to condemn but to love others. Calling names and insulting others because they disagree with you, no matter who's right, should be out of the question as it goes against what Jesus is all about.
Btw, you make the 'iggy penalty box' sound like fun (even with all the cohorts involved😍)

 

[GaryA]

lol Seven pages?!?! You are all the WORST! I remain logged on all day and nothing. But as soon as I log off then there is a FULL CONVERSATION!

Thanks for hanging in there, brother - I really do truly value your contributions...

Seven pages should be enough to keep you busy for a while

- assuming you believe any of this mess is actually worth commentiing on...

(I'm not so sure that you really missed much.)

 

[cv5]

You can't rip Romans 11 out of the Bible. Christians are not the true Jews. That's false, it's heresy. The Bible doesn't teach it.

@Moses_Young can plug in "true Jews" or "false Jews"......and either option means Romans 11 becomes junk.

It is obvious that Paul is talking about "plain vanilla Jews" aka yet to be saved, still unsaved ethnic sons of Jacob.

And evidently they completely failed to read these verses:

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, G846 when G3752 I shall take away their sins.

==========================================================================

So when is when? Right here is when.

Jer 30:7
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (Israelites): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[GaryA]

Btw, you make the 'iggy penalty box' sound like fun (even with all the cohorts involved😍)

On behalf of all of the 'cohorts'...

"Oh, thanks..."

 

[TabinRivCA]

On behalf of all of the 'cohorts'...

"Oh, thanks..."

That would really put us to the test, wouldn't it🤣🤣🤣

 

[Romans34]

What is your answer @GaryA @TabinRivCA @Romans34 @Moses_Young ?

[Dan 9:26 KJV]
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[Dan 9:27 KJV]
And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: "

[Daniel 9:25 KJV] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Notice what follows the colon is an “add-on” statement or thought referring back to the first part (seven weeks).

Also notice that verse 26 picks up with the thought preceding the colon, the threescore and two weeks.

[Daniel 9:26 KJV] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Again, what follows the colon is an “add-on” statement or thought, but the subject is not the prince, but the people of the prince.

Again, notice that verse 27 picks up with the thought preceding the colon, the Messiah being cut off.

[Daniel 9:27 KJV] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So the two “he”s in verse 27 are referring to the Messiah, NOT the people of the prince, or the prince himself.

And if He was crucified AFTER the 7 weeks, and 62 weeks (total 69 weeks), then His crucifixion was in the middle of the 70th week. It’s not complicated.
And if you will understand and embrace this truth, you will 'see' what you've never 'seen' before, and it will change your theology about end-time events.

 

[HeIsHere]

[Daniel 9:25 KJV] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Notice what follows the colon is an “add-on” statement or thought referring back to the first part (seven weeks).

Also notice that verse 26 picks up with the thought preceding the colon, the threescore and two weeks.

[Daniel 9:26 KJV] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Again, what follows the colon is an “add-on” statement or thought, but the subject is not the prince, but the people of the prince.

Again, notice that verse 27 picks up with the thought preceding the colon, the Messiah being cut off.

[Daniel 9:27 KJV] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So the two “he”s in verse 27 are referring to the Messiah, NOT the people of the prince, or the prince himself.

And if He was crucified AFTER the 7 weeks, and 62 weeks (total 69 weeks), then His crucifixion was in the middle of the 70th week. It’s not complicated.
And if you will understand and embrace this truth, you will 'see' what you've never 'seen' before, and it will change your theology about end-time events.

Yes the "abomination that causeth desolation" was the crucifixion.

I have stated this a few times, you can expect immediate backlash.'

I am impressed how much faux theology about this being the "antichrist" has been written to cover up what covenant theologians always understood to be the correct understanding of the passage.

It pretty much destroys the whole gap nonsense and perhaps even futurist eschatology.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Mathew 24 is clearly
describing a future heretical figure causing this: Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This has not happened yet.

 

[Magenta]

You only give yourself leeway in terms of how something should be read, everyone else is a liar or a hypocrite.

That is actually and factually just another lie. In your view, is nobody accountable for the things they say?

 

[Yahshua]

@HeIsHere... I read your additional questions and want to give a better understanding of Historicism.

Historicism

Also called the continuous historicist view was the original eschatological position of the protestant reformers after people gained access to the bible. Before that the Catholic Church outlawed owning bibles and interpreting scripture. As the reformers studied they came to see the Papacy as the Beast of the Sea in Revelation 13.

To counter the protestant reformation and to take the heat off them the Papacy commissioned the Jesuit order to develop two opposing views of eschatology: Preterism and Futurism (thesis and antithesis").

"Jesuit Luis de Alcasar first expounded the preterist view..."

"Jesuit writers Manuel Lacunza (1731–1801) and Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) proposed the futurist view."

Before these two opposing views, several prophecies in books like Daniel and Revelation were understood as outlines of events spanning human history, starting from the witness' lifetime to when The Messiah will appear in His glory.

----

The Revelation

In the first verse, The book of Revelation explains to us that it is "the Revealing of [The Messiah] that [The Almighty] gave to [The Messiah] to show his servants what must soon take place". So right at the start, we have to consider from whose POV are we to read the signs. Surely John is the direct audience but is the POV man's or The Almighty's?

Building on principles we've been given in the scriptures (such as, that only the Father knows when He will send The Messiah; Matthew 24:36, Acts 1:7), events must unfold from the Almighty's POV. So when He says "soon take place", what is "soon" to Him? Building on this further, we remember passages like...

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day


If 1000 years of man = 1 day to The Almighty then "soon" can be as short as a day or as long as a few thousand years, so how can we be more accurate? Well, the book climaxes with the literal revealing of The Messiah to the world in His glory (the book's title). So if the world is still waiting to see The Messiah in His glory then logically how can the book be complete? And yet, the book was given to The Messiah, who then gave it to an angel, who gave it to John in the first century.

So the book must be for every servant from John's lifetime to whoever remains when The Messiah appears. By reason, the book must include that timeframe.

[John's lifetime; 90 AD]---------To---------->[Messiah's Kingdom; so far, after 2023 AD]


Now is there precedent for this? Will The Almighty give a prophecy to a servant that doesn't fully complete itself in that servant's lifetime or even the lifetimes of many generations after them? Absolutely! Several prophecies in the Book of Daniel testify to this style of communication.

Daniel 2 - Nebuchadnezzar's statue:
- The timeframe is from [Daniel's lifetime in Babylon]------To------>[Messiah's Kingdom] that destroys all earthly kingdoms

Daniel 7 - The Four Beasts:
- The timeframe is from [Daniel's lifetime in Babylon]------To------>[Messiah's kingdom] that destroys the beast kingdom and receives dominion over all others

Daniel 9 - 70 "Sevens":
- The timeframe is from [the command to rebuild The City]-------To------>[the Destruction of that City], which took 490 years.

Each of these prophecies starts at a specific timeframe in Daniel's life and ends with a "consummation" of that prophecy many years later, dare I say several human lifetimes later. And before sharing a few of these prophecies, He would tell Daniel, "You are highly favored," as a reason for revealing these things to him. John was also highly regarded.


Why does The Almighty give prophecies spanning so much time?

Out of love. There's comfort and peace in knowing He's in control, which is especially needed when His servants experience suffering through injustice and hatred, murder, sickness, robbery, and all the evils of satan & corrupt man.

So to not have laid out the last 2000 years of humanity, when it has proven to be the MOST brutal for servants of The Living God by comparison, just doesn't fit His loving nature as revealed by OT passages. It really helps to know how far we have to go.


So how does a historicist align end-time prophecy to human events?

I've heard it said (and happen to agree) that the Book of Revelation is like graduate-level text that relies on the truth revealed from previous books of scripture, so we can't interpret the book without the rest of scripture as a foundation. From signs and symbols to idioms and phrases, end-time prophecy harkens backward to "decode" (for lack of a better word) what's being revealed forward.

For example, when does the breaking of seals (Rev 6) begin in human history from a Historicist's POV? Well, only a triumphant Messiah breaks the seals, so it couldn't have begun before the Messiah ascended to heaven, which we know happened sometime between 27-34 AD between the time of His resurrection (when He ascended to the Father to complete the wave offering) and His final ascension after staying with His disciples for 40 more days (leaving 10 days before Pentecost).

[27-34 AD]------------------------>Messiah Begins Breaking Seals----------------------------->Messiah Appearing to the World[after 2023 AD]


Next, we match up the symbols/imagery described to narrow down the starting point. During the Olivet Discourse, The Messiah described several events that would occur concluding with the appearance of "The Son Of Man" in glory.

- Deceivers Come
- Wars Come
- Famine Comes
- Pestilences Come
- His disciples will be persecuted & killed but the gospel will be preached
- Abomination of desolation
- Great tribulation (cut short because of the elect)
- Great signs & tribulation of nations

Notice that we get similar descriptions in Rev 6 as each seal is broken:

- Seal 1: White Horseman (conquering)
- Seal 2: Red Horseman (removes peace = war)
- Seal 3: Pale Horseman (scales = famine)
- Seal 4: Black Horseman (death = pestilence)
- Seal 5: Servants are killed for their testimony
- Seal 6: "Wrath of the Lamb"
- 144000 Israelites are numbered & great multitude said to come out of great tribulation
- Seal 7: Trumpet Judgments

So the events listed in the Olivet discourse are the same events unleashed during the 7 seals. We know that the Messiah's disciples were martyred before 67 AD for spreading the gospel. We also know that The Book of Acts is the record of the gospel being spread (i.e., the entire book of Acts is the fulfillment of Matt 24:9-14). And history records their martyrdom before 67 AD, so we know that the 5th seal was broken in the 1st century. The Messiah's disciples are the servants who are martyred.

Next, 5 comes after 1-4, and we know that The Messiah didn't receive the sealed scroll until He ascended in triumph, so we can safely conclude that seals 1-5 were broken between 27-67 AD. Again, as of 2024, The Messiah hasn't appeared in the flesh (Rev 19). This means the book of Revelation spans a timeframe from 27/34 AD to at least 2024 AD.

------

We can continue to build on the facts we've pieced together by matching biblical symbols, phrases, and the historical record to understand how major events in history were prophesied in the remaining seals, trumpets, and bowls and to understand what we likely have remaining.

 

[Dude653]

Israel has the capability to end this war in a weekend if they wanted to, but they don't. If you were to reverse that power dynamic, there wouldn't be a Jew left alive

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Israel has the capability to end this war in a weekend if they wanted to, but they don't. If you were to reverse that power dynamic, there wouldn't be a Jew left alive

And Hamas could end it tomorrow, let the captive people go free.

 

[HeIsHere]

Israel has the capability to end this war in a weekend if they wanted to, but they don't. If you were to reverse that power dynamic, there wouldn't be a Jew left alive

How many Jewish people have been killed in the USA specifically because of who they were (ethnicity) over the past ten years in proportion to how many died of other causes?

 

[HeIsHere]

@HeIsHere... I read your additional questions and want to give a better understanding of Historicism.

Historicism

Also called the continuous historicist view was the original eschatological position of the protestant reformers after people gained access to the bible. Before that the Catholic Church outlawed owning bibles and interpreting scripture. As the reformers studied they came to see the Papacy as the Beast of the Sea in Revelation 13.

To counter the protestant reformation and to take the heat off them the Papacy commissioned the Jesuit order to develop two opposing views of eschatology: Preterism and Futurism (thesis and antithesis").

"Jesuit Luis de Alcasar first expounded the preterist view..."

"Jesuit writers Manuel Lacunza (1731–1801) and Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) proposed the futurist view."

Before these two opposing views, several prophecies in books like Daniel and Revelation were understood as outlines of events spanning human history, starting from the witness' lifetime to when The Messiah will appear in His glory.

----

The Revelation

In the first verse, The book of Revelation explains to us that it is "the Revealing of [The Messiah] that [The Almighty] gave to [The Messiah] to show his servants what must soon take place". So right at the start, we have to consider from whose POV are we to read the signs. Surely John is the direct audience but is the POV man's or The Almighty's?

Building on principles we've been given in the scriptures (such as, that only the Father knows when He will send The Messiah; Matthew 24:36, Acts 1:7), events must unfold from the Almighty's POV. So when He says "soon take place", what is "soon" to Him? Building on this further, we remember passages like...

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day


If 1000 years of man = 1 day to The Almighty then "soon" can be as short as a day or as long as a few thousand years, so how can we be more accurate? Well, the book climaxes with the literal revealing of The Messiah to the world in His glory (the book's title). So if the world is still waiting to see The Messiah in His glory then logically how can the book be complete? And yet, the book was given to The Messiah, who then gave it to an angel, who gave it to John in the first century.

So the book must be for every servant from John's lifetime to whoever remains when The Messiah appears. By reason, the book must include that timeframe.

[John's lifetime; 90 AD]---------To---------->[Messiah's Kingdom; so far, after 2023 AD]


Now is there precedent for this? Will The Almighty give a prophecy to a servant that doesn't fully complete itself in that servant's lifetime or even the lifetimes of many generations after them? Absolutely! Several prophecies in the Book of Daniel testify to this style of communication.

Daniel 2 - Nebuchadnezzar's statue:
- The timeframe is from [Daniel's lifetime in Babylon]------To------>[Messiah's Kingdom] that destroys all earthly kingdoms

Daniel 7 - The Four Beasts:
- The timeframe is from [Daniel's lifetime in Babylon]------To------>[Messiah's kingdom] that destroys the beast kingdom and receives dominion over all others

Daniel 9 - 70 "Sevens":
- The timeframe is from [the command to rebuild The City]-------To------>[the Destruction of that City], which took 490 years.

Each of these prophecies starts at a specific timeframe in Daniel's life and ends with a "consummation" of that prophecy many years later, dare I say several human lifetimes later. And before sharing a few of these prophecies, He would tell Daniel, "You are highly favored," as a reason for revealing these things to him. John was also highly regarded.


Why does The Almighty give prophecies spanning so much time?

Out of love. There's comfort and peace in knowing He's in control, which is especially needed when His servants experience suffering through injustice and hatred, murder, sickness, robbery, and all the evils of satan & corrupt man.

So to not have laid out the last 2000 years of humanity, when it has proven to be the MOST brutal for servants of The Living God by comparison, just doesn't fit His loving nature as revealed by OT passages. It really helps to know how far we have to go.


So how does a historicist align end-time prophecy to human events?

I've heard it said (and happen to agree) that the Book of Revelation is like graduate-level text that relies on the truth revealed from previous books of scripture, so we can't interpret the book without the rest of scripture as a foundation. From signs and symbols to idioms and phrases, end-time prophecy harkens backward to "decode" (for lack of a better word) what's being revealed forward.

For example, when does the breaking of seals (Rev 6) begin in human history from a Historicist's POV? Well, only a triumphant Messiah breaks the seals, so it couldn't have begun before the Messiah ascended to heaven, which we know happened sometime between 27-34 AD between the time of His resurrection (when He ascended to the Father to complete the wave offering) and His final ascension after staying with His disciples for 40 more days (leaving 10 days before Pentecost).

[27-34 AD]------------------------>Messiah Begins Breaking Seals----------------------------->Messiah Appearing to the World[after 2023 AD]


Next, we match up the symbols/imagery described to narrow down the starting point. During the Olivet Discourse, The Messiah described several events that would occur concluding with the appearance of "The Son Of Man" in glory.

- Deceivers Come
- Wars Come
- Famine Comes
- Pestilences Come
- His disciples will be persecuted & killed but the gospel will be preached
- Abomination of desolation
- Great tribulation (cut short because of the elect)
- Great signs & tribulation of nations

Notice that we get similar descriptions in Rev 6 as each seal is broken:

- Seal 1: White Horseman (conquering)
- Seal 2: Red Horseman (removes peace = war)
- Seal 3: Pale Horseman (scales = famine)
- Seal 4: Black Horseman (death = pestilence)
- Seal 5: Servants are killed for their testimony
- Seal 6: "Wrath of the Lamb"
- 144000 Israelites are numbered & great multitude said to come out of great tribulation
- Seal 7: Trumpet Judgments

So the events listed in the Olivet discourse are the same events unleashed during the 7 seals. We know that the Messiah's disciples were martyred before 67 AD for spreading the gospel. We also know that The Book of Acts is the record of the gospel being spread (i.e., the entire book of Acts is the fulfillment of Matt 24:9-14). And history records their martyrdom before 67 AD, so we know that the 5th seal was broken in the 1st century. The Messiah's disciples are the servants who are martyred.

Next, 5 comes after 1-4, and we know that The Messiah didn't receive the sealed scroll until He ascended in triumph, so we can safely conclude that seals 1-5 were broken between 27-67 AD. Again, as of 2024, The Messiah hasn't appeared in the flesh (Rev 19). This means the book of Revelation spans a timeframe from 27/34 AD to at least 2024 AD.

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We can continue to build on the facts we've pieced together by matching biblical symbols, phrases, and the historical record to understand how major events in history were prophesied in the remaining seals, trumpets, and bowls and to understand what we likely have remaining.

Lots to deconstruct here ...I have read the two views (preterist and futurist) were created for political reasons.

I will respond but I need to refresh my memory, it was a few years back when I read about it.