The state of the world

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,482
15,313
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#41
To clear up my position which was mouthed without a direct quote by 7seas

a. Show me a verse that states...

Thou shalt break the law to feed the poor

and a verse that states or proves the end justifies the means........

I will wait!
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
781
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#42
Moral questions may be at the basis of political ones, but their taxonomical distinction relates to questions of authority.

Let's pick something you and I agree upon- shoplifting is evil. A man is caught stealing by a loss prevention officer. Who is best suited to judge the shoplifter? An impartial judge or the loss prevention officer? Who has the proper authority? What are the practical ramifications of authority failing or somebody violating that authority? What is the appropriate punishment?

I'm not looking for anybody to answer these questions, but rather acknowledge these questions are proper ones to ask. Answering them requires a set of values and principles in addition to whether we want something or that something ought to be punished.



A fine qualifier.





The nerve touching has something to do with that. Most of them see statements like "hording" and "railing against the poor" as mischaracterizations. The personal offense may play a part in their disregarding of where you agree.

It's only a personal offense if they see it as one. Ie, guilt sucks when you're on the wrong side

I never missed you saying that, but it rings somewhat hollow in view of history.

Many of those who crafted welfare policies held the same value up until the failure of the Great Society. The Kennedy and Johnson Administrations saw their program as a jumpstart for a shrinking class of poor people, not a means toward permanent dependency.

They may have indeed believed "if ya don't work ya don't eat." but their abuse of authority gave rise to "eat and work when it's convenient if at all."

Yep Ya got that right

Exactly! Who defines and enforces "fairly?" How is it enforced?

If you do not have an answer for that, people will likely assume it's da gubmint.

That is between you and God. And yes far too often da gubmint thinks it is God. To everyone's detriment

And who is charged with putting a stop to "hoarding" and "unjust accumulation?" What are they authorized to do to address these concerns?

Again, that is between that person and God. They are authorized - actually commanded - to treat workers fairly and give to the poor. If they follow this then there will be no hording and unjust accumulations.

That's nice. I'm glad you're so generous.

Thank you.

Hahaha

I suppose in closing, I want to note that the differences you have with Right-leaning Christians has more to do with that question of proper authority than anything else.

They assume you take up the position that the government should decide largely because proper authority in these practical decisions remains, as of yet, untouched.

And again they assume incorrectly. God is the authority, and He should be the one to decide. Not the government, which has been hijacked and ruined by conservative and liberal extremes.

I'm only out to get SovereignGrace
You're good - it is Maxwell who's out to get me ;) (Answers to other question are in the quote, in red.)
 

Odelschwanck

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
322
64
28
#43
The Bible's stance on when if ever one should break man's law confuses me too.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,666
3,301
113
#44
a. Show me a verse that states...

Thou shalt break the law to feed the poor
The Bible is NOT a book of Systematic Theology. So you will look in vain for such a verse.

Furthermore, it is spiritually discerned, which means that the Holy Spirit must teach you lessons from what is implied.

Did the high priest break the Law to feed David and his hungry men? Does that teach you any lessons?

MARK 2
23
And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
8,479
3,654
113
#45
To clear up my position which was mouthed without a direct quote by 7seas

a. Show me a verse that states...

Thou shalt break the law to feed the poor

and a verse that states or proves the end justifies the means........

I will wait!
but you had no confusion about it even though I did not directly quote you, right?

would you break the law to save someone you loved?

I think there is only one answer to that

as long as we are quoting things, how many 'laws' did Jesus break, including working on the Sabbath by healing?

the law was still in effect when He did that

I think you just wanted to slam the op

so you did
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
781
113
#46
To clear up my position which was mouthed without a direct quote by 7seas

a. Show me a verse that states...

Thou shalt break the law to feed the poor

and a verse that states or proves the end justifies the means........

I will wait!
So... when the antichrist takes over and declares it illegal to worship any 'god' but him, you're going to worship him and not Christ?
Why not, you know you can do so and still be saved.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,482
15,313
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#48
So... when the antichrist takes over and declares it illegal to worship any 'god' but him, you're going to worship him and not Christ?
Why not, you know you can do so and still be saved.
Another idiotic response from you which has nothing to do with stealing or breaking the law to feed the poor and goes to the root of your flawed logic....no wonder you miss the mark on so much.....and according to your dogma...we wont be here anyway....

instead of mouthing how about...

a. A verse which states it is ok to break the law to feed the poor
b. A verse that states the end justifies the means.....concerning said topic...

How about this one....David said he had never seen the righteous begging bread and God promises food, shelter and clothing to those who are saved and faithful....why do they need food again?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
781
113
#49
Another idiotic response from you which has nothing to do with stealing or breaking the law to feed the poor and goes to the root of your flawed logic....no wonder you miss the mark on so much.....and according to your dogma...we wont be here anyway....
Uhm, yeah about that... I DO believe we will be here. I'd say who's the idiot now but I'm trying real hard to stop that unnecessary name calling. Oops. Perhaps you have me confused with somebody else. Or, more likely, read to respond instead of hear..?

So tell me then, if it's not ok to break the law to feed the poor, do you think it would be ok to break the law in other cases, and what might some of those cases be? Would you break the law that says there is no other god than the antichrist?

I don't know if there's a statute of limitations in Columbia, but you might be able to get a reward for turning me in!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,482
15,313
113
#50
Uhm, yeah about that... I DO believe we will be here. I'd say who's the idiot now but I'm trying real hard to stop that unnecessary name calling. Oops. Perhaps you have me confused with somebody else. Or, more likely, read to respond instead of hear..?

So tell me then, if it's not ok to break the law to feed the poor, do you think it would be ok to break the law in other cases, and what might some of those cases be? Would you break the law that says there is no other god than the antichrist?

I don't know if there's a statute of limitations in Columbia, but you might be able to get a reward for turning me in!
The problem with entering into dialogue with you is found above....I asked for two verse that prove the stance taken by you in this thread and you come back with a mouthy uncalled for response......and My bad....most believe we won't be here....I do as well and your comparison is like comparing apples to oranges......it is not comparable......

a. NO saved man can or will take the mark
b. Only those who have not received the truth will be deluded by God
c. Standing against the AC and his demand for worship is in no way comparable to breaking the laws of the land to feed the poor

THERE are very FEW examples found in the bible where one broke laws in order to maintain right relationship with God, preserve life or refuse to bow down to an image....I can think of three to five....having said that....

I cannot think of one instance where God approved breaking the law of the land to feed the poor and or to steal to feed the poor....

One thing I find interesting, and not just in this situation, but others as well....HOW ANY PEOPLE will argue tooth and nail against obvious truth because of personal situations and or personal application.........

again I ask.....biblically show me two witnesses where God states it is ok to break the laws of man to feed the poor

God said...

LABOR that you may have to give to him that need
ALL these things have been promised to those who seek God's kingdom first (FOOD, clothing and shelter)
DAVID had never seen the RIGHTEOUS begging bread

AND MAKE NO MISTAKE....I HAVE on MANY occasions fed those who need it, bought food, let them work and paid them, given money etc.....but I have never broken the law to do such....

QUESTION.......You are a believer....what KIND of witness would it have been had you been busted and jailed for smuggling or breaking the law?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
781
113
#51
Does it have to be about feeding the poor? Or can it be any law? (And who gets to decide?) Right off the top of my head is Acts 4 18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.19But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

What kind of witness would I have been to go to jail for Christ?

Seriously?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,482
15,313
113
#52
Does it have to be about feeding the poor? Or can it be any law? (And who gets to decide?) Right off the top of my head is Acts 4 18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.19But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

What kind of witness would I have been to go to jail for Christ?

Seriously?
Again apples to oranges..........teaching and preaching not comparable to smuggling food........and the three verse I posted states clearly....saved and righteous no need to beg for bread and or break the law to be fed..........

still waiting.....

OK to break the law to feed someone
The end justifies the means
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
8,479
3,654
113
#53
IMO, this has become a good illustration of straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel

 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#54
The problem with entering into dialogue with you is found above....I asked for two verse that prove the stance taken by you in this thread and you come back with a mouthy uncalled for response......and My bad....most believe we won't be here....I do as well and your comparison is like comparing apples to oranges......it is not comparable......

a. NO saved man can or will take the mark
b. Only those who have not received the truth will be deluded by God
c. Standing against the AC and his demand for worship is in no way comparable to breaking the laws of the land to feed the poor

THERE are very FEW examples found in the bible where one broke laws in order to maintain right relationship with God, preserve life or refuse to bow down to an image....I can think of three to five....having said that....

I cannot think of one instance where God approved breaking the law of the land to feed the poor and or to steal to feed the poor....

One thing I find interesting, and not just in this situation, but others as well....HOW ANY PEOPLE will argue tooth and nail against obvious truth because of personal situations and or personal application.........

again I ask.....biblically show me two witnesses where God states it is ok to break the laws of man to feed the poor

God said...

LABOR that you may have to give to him that need
ALL these things have been promised to those who seek God's kingdom first (FOOD, clothing and shelter)
DAVID had never seen the RIGHTEOUS begging bread

AND MAKE NO MISTAKE....I HAVE on MANY occasions fed those who need it, bought food, let them work and paid them, given money etc.....but I have never broken the law to do such....

QUESTION.......You are a believer....what KIND of witness would it have been had you been busted and jailed for smuggling or breaking the law?
ever heard of paul hill?

a man who claims to be Christian

but he murdered "doctors" who performed abortions to save babies

to play "robin hood" and steal from the wealthy and greedy to feed the poor and the needy is the same principal as killing abortion doctors who perform such a horrible act

these are both sins

and to answer your question it would make you a very flawed witness who can easily be blamed and pointed at as unrighteous

our works do not cover sin

do not do evil so good may come

that is ridiculous
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
781
113
#55
And on that note let me end what has now become another useless debate. In summary:

1. Go ahead, continue wasting energy that could be better spent on more productive efforts
2. Don't follow Jesus' commands if it involves breaking the law
3. Continue to call each opposing thought stupid and ignorant
4. Attack anyone who thinks differently than you, for what is a sword for?

Thanks for playing!
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#56
And on that note let me end what has now become another useless debate. In summary:

1. Go ahead, continue wasting energy that could be better spent on more productive efforts
2. Don't follow Jesus' commands if it involves breaking the law
3. Continue to call each opposing thought stupid and ignorant
4. Attack anyone who thinks differently than you, for what is a sword for?

Thanks for playing!

nope you just made 4 strawmen

1. If someone believes a false gospel, or lies don't encourage it by agreeing with them.

2. You don't have to sin to obey Jesus.

3. Harsh truths are better than sugar coated lies.

4. If someone is lying, expose them.
 

Gman

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2017
75
35
18
#57
The world is on its way to its destruction and there is no stopping it! No grumbling, adjust your ways accordingly, help those you can and get ready for at the appointed time what is the come to pass will come to pass.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,482
15,313
113
#58
nope you just made 4 strawmen

1. If someone believes a false gospel, or lies don't encourage it by agreeing with them.

2. You don't have to sin to obey Jesus.

3. Harsh truths are better than sugar coated lies.

4. If someone is lying, expose them.
His normal cop out.....wait till it really hits the fan soon for believers........
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
781
113
#59
What? You guys and your moronic ideas have convinced me! My 55 years of study (3 in Bible college) and experience mean nothing if I don't share the same opinion as you. Obviously I am wrong! I was also stupid and a criminal for feeding starving people and providing the sick medicines against their countries laws! What an idiot I was, I should have let them starve and die!! And I do feel much better now that I am free to call your ideas ignorant, altho again obviously I'm the ignorant one here! And lastly, what a relief to know that I may freely swing my sword at fellow believers ... is that right, can I still call someone who doesn't believe the same way I do a 'believer'? Altho obviously again they are not if they believe something else. And yes! I will be more than happy to help D's osas thread reach 100,000 pages! That's what they are here for, right?

You're right! There is great freedom in grace! The truth (or at least your truth) has truly set me free!

See you scumbags in the next thread! (That's not going to offend you is it? You did say that was perfectly acceptable)

Oh, and D ... I was going to confess that I have actually been yanking your chain. I was going to apologize for that. But since it's not wrong, why should I?
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#60
What? You guys and your moronic ideas have convinced me! My 55 years of study (3 in Bible college) and experience mean nothing if I don't share the same opinion as you. Obviously I am wrong! I was also stupid and a criminal for feeding starving people and providing the sick medicines against their countries laws! What an idiot I was, I should have let them starve and die!! And I do feel much better now that I am free to call your ideas ignorant, altho again obviously I'm the ignorant one here! And lastly, what a relief to know that I may freely swing my sword at fellow believers ... is that right, can I still call someone who doesn't believe the same way I do a 'believer'? Altho obviously again they are not if they believe something else. And yes! I will be more than happy to help D's osas thread reach 100,000 pages! That's what they are here for, right?

You're right! There is great freedom in grace! The truth (or at least your truth) has truly set me free!

See you scumbags in the next thread! (That's not going to offend you is it? You did say that was perfectly acceptable)

Oh, and D ... I was going to confess that I have actually been yanking your chain. I was going to apologize for that. But since it's not wrong, why should I?

k.....:unsure: