Trump Says "NO DEAL" over Iran Nuclear program

[Desdichado]

And spare me the hyperbolizing. I'm about as instinctually anti-war as you are.

 

[Depleted]

Times have changed. The Ayatollah's regime is old hat now.

Right. Instead they have a couple of more generations that grew up on the same indoctrination, so no longer need a cleric as puppet. Sort of like America. Generations have been trained to believe there is no God, and poof! Most of the country continues to preach that as if everyone assumes it. Many do.

 

[Depleted]

You don't seriously believe that do you?

If the Ayatollah tells the Republican Guard to strike another country, and the elected? president tells the guard not to, what do you think will happen?

I think the president is the puppet master, and the Ayatollah is the puppet. Could be wrong on puppeteer and puppet, but the outcome is the same.

 

[Depleted]

Yes. I do.

There has been a rising level of dissatisfaction among the general pop. An economic hit may not topple the regime, but it'll cause no small amount of civil unrest.

There's a rising dissatisfaction in the US too. Doesn't mean anything will come from it. (Or it will, but not the way assumed.)

 

[Depleted]

You reap what you sow

the Iranians have good reason to be wary of U.S. foreign policy,
especially when in recent times various White House and Pentagon
officials have openly talked of destroying Iran, along with 6 other
Middle East nations (5 down only 2 to go: Syria and Iran).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role-1953-iranian-coup

The CIA has publicly admitted for the first time that it was behind the notorious 1953
coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq,
in documents that also show how the British government tried to block the release
of information about its own involvement in his overthrow.

A democratically elected government was overthrown and people died so that
British Petroleum Persia [BP] would not be nationalised.

History of Iran: A short account of 1953 Coup

Too funny. You're blaming something that happened before WE were alive for what's happening today? Are you Irish, per chance? I thought they were the ones with long-term grudges.

 

[Waggles]

Remember what Peter writes in his epistle
that the love of money is the root of all evil

petro dollars explains the chaos and constant involvement of
Western powers in the Middle East and regime change ...

[video=youtube;qCbFTnxBEKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCbFTnxBEKs[/video]

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, but there have been attempts at political upheaval among the young and educated that you seem intent on totally ignoring. See 2009 and earlier this year.

Their regime is having issues.

Right. Instead they have a couple of more generations that grew up on the same indoctrination, so no longer need a cleric as puppet. Sort of like America. Generations have been trained to believe there is no God, and poof! Most of the country continues to preach that as if everyone assumes it. Many do.

 

[Desdichado]

In fact, that's why I suspect the recent rocket attack was done to incite an Israeli response.

Channel some rage away from the regime and toward the at the auslander. Egg on the face internationally, but less trouble internally.

Yeah, but there have been attempts at political upheaval among the young and educated that you seem intent on totally ignoring. See 2009 and earlier this year.

Their regime is having issues.

 

[peacenik]

So you want Hans Blix to hand-deliver the rocket shards to your front lawn? C'mon. This is almost laughable.

Well, at least you are honest enough to admit that Blix (or rather his organization) is the exclusive authority re nukes and the determination as to whether any government is in compliance with international law mandates.

As for "hyperbole", let's put it this way: the government and media lied about the imaginary "attack" in the Gulf of Tonkin. People accepted the lies without question and 58,000 Americans died (over 300,000 wounded). People blindly accepted the Bush and Netanyahu lies without any question about WMD in Iraq and an impending attack so that 4,400 Americans died with over 30,000 wounded. Last month a great many people blindly accepted the fairy tale about a gas attack in Syria that was imaginary and entailed the use of amateur actors to embellish it.

Normally, it's three strikes and you're out.

Evidently, you are willing to play by the games as dictated by the government and by its paid propagandists in the news media so that you now accept the idea of four strikes.

But I do not. I stick by principle and will not be satisfied with anything less that concrete evidence. We have wasted too much money, allowed the deaths of our fellow Americans, allowed the warmongers to divide the nation while they were pretending to do us a big favor in each instance I mentioned above. Thousands have died, many more thousands have been injured or debilitated, taxes have been raised to finance these wars and corporations have enjoyed multibillions in profits. It appears that some people can never get enough of war, deaths, debilitation, tax increases, and social division. Had any of these people demanded actual evidence none of those deaths would have happened and their annual tax bill would have been considerably lower.


This is laughable? I say the deaths of Americans, social division, higher taxes, and continued fomentation of war and violence is not. And we will get more of these things unless and until people demand accountability and honesty from the pols and the powers that be. Now is the time to demand it. Not tomorrow after the truth has been revealed that all the pro war propaganda has again been proven to be nothing more than fabrications and thousands have died.

One final thought: WWJD? Would He tell you to blindly accept lies or to demand the truth? I think the answer is too obvious.

 

[Desdichado]

You're being ridiculous. I ask a simple question and all you do is dodge and question my moral fiber when I've really shown little personal leg in this thread other than indicating an overall inclination in your direction which has been well-substantiated by my previous posts. Posts as recent as the Syria threads.

None of what you say in those paragraphs is laughable. What's laughable is your apparent inability to have a conversation without falling back to blanket assumptions about your interlocutor.

I actually asked my question in hopes you'd give me a straight answer with the sources you trust (Hans seems to be one). Instead, all I'm getting is "well you believe in the official story", Gulf of Tonkin tinfoil rubbish.

Yeah, I care about the truth. That's why I'm asking you the question in the first place.

Well, at least you are honest enough to admit that Blix (or rather his organization) is the exclusive authority re nukes and the determination as to whether any government is in compliance with international law mandates.

As for "hyperbole", let's put it this way: the government and media lied about the imaginary "attack" in the Gulf of Tonkin. People accepted the lies without question and 58,000 Americans died (over 300,000 wounded). People blindly accepted the Bush and Netanyahu lies without any question about WMD in Iraq and an impending attack so that 4,400 Americans died with over 30,000 wounded. Last month a great many people blindly accepted the fairy tale about a gas attack in Syria that was imaginary and entailed the use of amateur actors to embellish it.

Normally, it's three strikes and you're out.

Evidently, you are willing to play by the games as dictated by the government and by its paid propagandists in the news media so that you now accept the idea of four strikes.

But I do not. I stick by principle and will not be satisfied with anything less that concrete evidence. We have wasted too much money, allowed the deaths of our fellow Americans, allowed the warmongers to divide the nation while they were pretending to do us a big favor in each instance I mentioned above. Thousands have died, many more thousands have been injured or debilitated, taxes have been raised to finance these wars and corporations have enjoyed multibillions in profits. It appears that some people can never get enough of war, deaths, debilitation, tax increases, and social division. Had any of these people demanded actual evidence none of those deaths would have happened and their annual tax bill would have been considerably lower.


This is laughable? I say the deaths of Americans, social division, higher taxes, and continued fomentation of war and violence is not. And we will get more of these things unless and until people demand accountability and honesty from the pols and the powers that be. Now is the time to demand it. Not tomorrow after the truth has been revealed that all the pro war propaganda has again been proven to be nothing more than fabrications and thousands have died.

One final thought: WWJD? Would He tell you to blindly accept lies or to demand the truth? I think the answer is too obvious.

 

[peacenik]

You're being ridiculous. I ask a simple question and all you do is dodge and question my moral fiber when I've really shown little personal leg in this thread other than indicating an overall inclination in your direction which has been well-substantiated by my previous posts. Posts as recent as the Syria threads.

None of what you say in those paragraphs is laughable. What's laughable is your apparent inability to have a conversation without falling back to blanket assumptions about your interlocutor.

I actually asked my question in hopes you'd give me a straight answer with the sources you trust (Hans seems to be one). Instead, all I'm getting is "well you believe in the official story", Gulf of Tonkin tinfoil rubbish.

Yeah, I care about the truth. That's why I'm asking you the question in the first place.

I have answered your question. But it is obviously one you do not like. That is your problem, not mine. I have given you links so that you can investigate anything I say for yourself. If you have a problem with any facts these sources provide, take it up with them as I'm quite certain they will set you straight on any misunderstandings you may have.

54 years after the Gulf Of Tonkin lies, we are still waiting for "proof" that such an attack took place. 15 years after the hysterical cries about an impending WMD attack we are still waiting for proof of those weapons. One month after an alleged gas attack in Syria, we are still waiting for proof that it ever took place. In fact we have concrete proof that the tears and and moaning of the so called victims were orchestrated. Meantime thousands have died because of those past lies and no one was ever held accountable for the crimes that were committed against the citizens of the USA who died in those wars. And it is just as likely that no one will ever be held accountable for future American deaths in the next war that will be manufactured by the powers that be.


You actually care about the truth? Then demand PROOF of the claims made by the Netanyahu's and Trump's of this world. Open your eyes and realize that through their endless lies and pro war propaganda, public attention is drawn towards imaginary enemies as they seek to draw attention away from their failings, from political troubles, and from corruption that has resulted in arrests and convictions among their political cohorts*. Realize that because of your failure to question them and to criticize people who are interested in the truth, you have fallen into the trap created by these propagandists. You say you want peace. If that is so, the only way to get it is to question and challenge every bit of propaganda you are forced fed by the war powers. Blind acceptance of their campaigns will only get you more war and more American deaths.

Now ask, what would the Prince of Peace do. By the way, when I asked you WWJD, you failed to answer. Now try answering it.






* https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-corruption-scandal.html

* https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/us/politics/mueller-investigation-charges.html

 

[Desdichado]

I have answered your question. But it is obviously one you do not like.

Yes, because you give very little indication of what you consider proof. It seems to me that you have some sort of narrative in your head. If an event crosses that narrative, it's shuffled into the untruth category.

I guess most people operate via that sort of heuristic on some level, but this is a special case.

I have given you links so that you can investigate anything I say for yourself.

Up until this latest post, it was one link from the Guardian with one vague line about attack confirmation. When I asked what you considered valid confirmation you gave me nothing except your desire for proof and what happens when we act on very little of it.

When I asked what you would consider proof and a valid source for said proof, you ducked. Tell me who you trust. It isn't that hard!

If you have a problem with any facts these sources provide, take it up with them as I'm quite certain they will set you straight on any misunderstandings you may have.

Yeah, I have a bit of trouble letting one line from one Guardian article disrupt what appears to be a well-substantiated event.

54 years after the Gulf Of Tonkin lies, we are still waiting for "proof" that such an attack took place.

Yeah, but isn't it one heck of a presumptive leap to say "false flag" with such limited data?

Fine, Mr. Proof. Show me LBJ's telegram to the Black Ops forces.

15 years after the hysterical cries about an impending WMD attack we are still waiting for proof of those weapons.

True enough. I'm anti-Iraq as well. Not just because of the WMD thing, but the whole idiot neocon project.

One month after an alleged gas attack in Syria, we are still waiting for proof that it ever took place. In fact we have concrete proof that the tears and and moaning of the so called victims were orchestrated.

I'd love to see it.

I'm skeptical of this one as well. Though the video footage on CNN was compelling. I guess that's zombie Kubrick plying his trade.

Meantime thousands have died because of those past lies and no one was ever held accountable for the crimes that were committed against the citizens of the USA who died in those wars. And it is just as likely that no one will ever be held accountable for future American deaths in the next war that will be manufactured by the powers that be.

Your grand narrative assumes a lot of malevolence and doesn't appear to adequately account for other human foibles or wrongheadedness. I don't think thousands have died merely because of those past lies (assuming they were all lies for a moment.) Thousands have died due to overreaction, imprudence, and a tenth-rate understanding of history and human nature.

In both Iraq and Vietnam, we let fear and a Wilsonian sort of adventurism cloud our capacity for prudent action. Bush didn't lie. At least not on purpose- Bush was wrong.

You actually care about the truth? Then demand PROOF of the claims made by the Netanyahu's and Trump's of this world.

I do. As it stands, I'm opposed to war with Iran regardless of whether they shot 20 rockets over Israel's border. And I think they did which leads me to...

Open your eyes and realize that through their endless lies and pro war propaganda, public attention is drawn towards imaginary enemies as they seek to draw attention away from their failings, from political troubles, and from corruption that has resulted in arrests and convictions among their political cohorts*. Realize that because of your failure to question them and to criticize people who are interested in the truth, you have fallen into the trap created by these propagandists. You say you want peace. If that is so, the only way to get it is to question and challenge every bit of propaganda you are forced fed by the war powers. Blind acceptance of their campaigns will only get you more war and more American deaths.

You don't think Iranian politicians do the same sort of thing and that a knowingly useless rocket attack could've been a part of that calculus?

I fall to no propagandist trap without a fight whether it be a US gov propagandist, an Iranian propagandist, or a Chinese propagandist. I take things on a case-by-case basis and refuse to let phobias rule my opinion-making process.

Now ask, what would the Prince of Peace do. By the way, when I asked you WWJD, you failed to answer. Now try answering it.

I failed to answer because I tire of your moral grandstanding and unnecessarily long posts in response to a simple question. But I'll answer nonetheless because it's an intriguing question.

First, the Lord is different from me. He sits in Heaven and wields absolute power. By virtue of his station, He'll always do something different than little ol' Des.

So the question is what would the Lord have me do. Well, he would have me make the wisest, most moral decision I could based on the best information I can gather.

 

[peacenik]

Desdichado,


I asked what you would consider proof and a valid source for said proof, you ducked

I clearly wrote that I want evidence. Let us say just to clarify, that I want evidence that would stand up in a court of law such as the World Court. Campaign speeches from the likes of a Netanyahu who lied before Congress will not suffice for me.

Show me LBJ's telegram to the Black Ops forces.

LBJ made a speech to the public and before Congress to get the GOTR created. See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8-ffiYyzA



You repeated the word ''grandstanding''. Here is a better opportunity to apply your words. Same as when Bush made his phony speech before Congress in which he said that an imminent nuclear attack from Saddam was at hand.

it was one link from the Guardian

You have also seen and commented upon links I have submitted on the Syria thread. All of which clearly show Trump's claim of a gas attack was all a fake.

Bush didn't lie. At least not on purpose- Bush was wrong.

While I second your view on Vietnam, this statement is plainly wrong as the IAEA clearly established there were no WMD and there were no satellite photos to confirm any fairy tale about rockets launchers all set up to send missiles into the USA. Bush committed treasonous lies and war crimes. Even Ben Ferencz (the world's foremost authority on the subject) said the same thing I just said about him.

I take things on a case-by-case basis and refuse to let phobias rule my opinion-making process.

So do I.

re WWJD - he would have me make the wisest, most moral decision I could based on the best information I can gather

Same here. But I base my view on ALL sides of the political aisle. And note carefully that I use both Guardian (liberal) and antiwar.com which is conservative. My previous posts from zerohedge and youtube are from conservative channels as well. It is only by looking at both sides of the issue that anyone can reach a fair and objective decision on any matter.


American lives as well as those of many internationals are at stake once again. People responded to pro war campaigns emotionally in Vietnam, Iraq, and other international incursions. In each instance, only after the truth was disclosed did people come to regret their support of those military actions which resulted in American deaths and high profits for the rich. It is time for Americans who are predisposed to endorse wars to pause and reflect. Let them consider all viewpoints and to think over very carefully as to what actions they should take. And in a nation like ours which professes to be Christian, we all need to consider WWJD. Would He tell us to blindly accept the words of a blatant and proven liar like Netanyahu or would He tell us to pursue peace with all men? A fair and objective reading of the New Testament will provide the proper answer to that query.

 

[prove-all]

Amano's comment were restricted to those he made 2 years ago, not to today's events.

No you are very mistaken about this issue, Resolution 2231 was built into the deal,
it was not a one time event, even when Amano was questioned by reporters about
the weak February report, he made no attempt to sidestep the truth, as you do.

“In the previous reports, the bases were the previous UN Security Council Resolutions
and Board of Governors. But now they are terminated. They are gone.” When the nuclear
deal was signed, most UN mandates and resolutions concerning Iran were scrapped.

They were replaced with resolutions made in the nuclear deal—resolutions that require
the iaea to not report critical information on Iran to the public. Thus Amano said,
“[A]s the basis is different, the consequences are different.”
-

Seems you do not like to believe the truth, but believe lies from a county like
Iran that chants death to American in there streets, and calls us big satan.
You believe a country that claims alah as there god, maybe you should move there.

Rhodes today is of no social or political consequence.

So now truth about how the Obama administration lied to the American people comes
out, about the real facts of the Iran deal, is no concern or does not apply anymore?
Just more proof the Iran nuke deal was one of the worst foreign blunders in history,
and just one more proof you are "not looking for the truth" about this issue.

 

[prove-all]

Bribes For Iran Nuke Deal?
Bribes For Iran Nuke Deal? Regime Threatens to Release Names of Western Officials


www.thegatewaypundit.com...Reports

Iran’s Foreign Ministry Spokesman Hossein Jaberi Ansari warned Western officials this
week that if they do not put pressure on the Trump administration the Iranian regime will
leak the names of all Western officials who were bribed to pass the weak deal.

“If Europeans stop trading with Iran and don’t put pressure on US then we will reveal which
western politicians and how much money they had received during nuclear negotiations to
make # IranDeal happen.”

OH BOY! Iranian Regime Threatens to Release Names of Western Officials Who Took Bribes to Pass Nuke Deal

 

[prove-all]

Bribes For Iran Nuke Deal?

I clearly wrote that I want evidence.

So is Iran now lying about the so called bribes they say they gave out ?,
or did they lie and cheat back then, and actually did give bribes to cement the nuke deal?

 

[peacenik]

prove all

Seems you do not like to believe the truth, but believe lies from a county like
Iran

The cite I listed and you commented upon was for the IAEA, not from Iran.

more proof the Iran nuke deal was one of the worst foreign blunders in history

If so, then how do you explain that the USA's allies in this matter all strongly support it? Mind you European pols in 2015 have changed and those in office now are not those who are in office today just as in USA.


And why end the deal if it is working: https://www.rand.org/blog/2017/10/why-the-iran-nuclear-deal-benefits-the-us.html

OH BOY! Iranian Regime Threatens to Release Names of Western Officials Who Took Bribes to Pass Nuke Deal


did they lie and cheat back then

This part does interest me a great deal and wonder just who that would be if that claim is true. Merkel? Hollande? Sarkozy? Cameron? Bribes to US pols would be felonies, if proven. I don't know what the legal consequences would be to European pols, again, if proven. But remember that Trump's action (so far as I know) is not binding on Europeans who stand to profit from dealing with Iran. On that basis we will have to await any such disclosures if they are forthcoming.

One last issue re this - if Trump imposes sanctions on Europe for not complying with his mandate as reported below:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/13/us-sanctions-european-countries-iran-deal-donald-trump


Do you think there will be a trade war between Europe and the USA? What would be the financial consequences for that? Another recession, possibly?

The next few weeks should be quite interesting news wise.

 

[Ezekiel8]

Praise God for giving us a loyal and intelligent Christian President in President Trump. We must never let Iran get the Islamic Bomb. Ending the traitors' dismal deal with the enemy is a good first step, but there must be more. We must not allow Iran to continue their nuclear ambitions. It be nice if they learned from North Korea's recent example, but with them I do not see such a possibility, they are too obstinate of heart. If bombing them is the only way to get them to stop, then so be it.

 

[tanakh]

Praise God for giving us a loyal and intelligent Christian President in President Trump. We must never let Iran get the Islamic Bomb. Ending the traitors' dismal deal with the enemy is a good first step, but there must be more. We must not allow Iran to continue their nuclear ambitions. It be nice if they learned from North Korea's recent example, but with them I do not see such a possibility, they are too obstinate of heart. If bombing them is the only way to get them to stop, then so be it.

Just heard that this loyal and intelligent President has allowed military excercises with South Korea to go ahead and put the much trumpeted peace summit with the North in jeopardy. I do expect him to bomb Iran at some point as well. Like all Politicians he plays to the audience that will help keep him in power. In his case its the conservative Christian lobby. By the way the Islamic Bomb is up and running. Ever heard of Pakistan?

 

[Ezekiel8]

Just heard that this loyal and intelligent President has allowed military excercises with South Korea to go ahead and put the much trumpeted peace summit with the North in jeopardy. I do expect him to bomb Iran at some point as well. Like all Politicians he plays to the audience that will help keep him in power. In his case its the conservative Christian lobby. By the way the Islamic Bomb is up and running. Ever heard of Pakistan?

Of course we're going to do military exercises with South Korea. North Korea has chosen wisely, but nothing is final yet. They need to still understand that we carry the big stick if they are not so sincere in giving up their nuclear weapons. Aside from that though just on principle South Korea has been a decent ally to us, so we will do military exercises with them, this is pretty standard for nations and their allies.

Lol well you do make a good point except there is no lobby and President Trump does not have to be loyal to any lobbyists because, unlike the previous presidents, Trump makes decisions based upon what is right and not based upon bribes. Though your sentiment that Christians like President Trump is pretty apt. That's why President Trump is the best president of my lifetime, he does what I want, he bears the office of my President in a manner in accordance to the wise in the Bible. Why wouldn't I want to keep a President in power that thinks and does dang near everything I think and want done?

Oh don't worry about Pakistan, unlike the globalist traitors Bush and Obama we have no illusions about Pakistan. Pakistan is not totally an Islamic country though in the way Iran is for they are often led by secularists and military men, but nevertheless the secularists are pretty evil themselves, so I do agree they are double-dealers that can never be trusted. Cut their aid off!