What is meant when people say 'guns don't kill people; people do'?

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I_am_Canadian

Senior Member
Dec 8, 2014
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Guns simply cannot be blamed for the high murder rate in the USA and not for the large numbers of mass shootings either. It is a cultural problem. Switzerland is a country with the most liberal gun laws in the world. Switzerland encourages it's citizens to own guns as protection against invaders. This policy has enabled Switzerland to remain neutral through the major wars.

The country has about 2 million privately owned guns in a nation of 8.3 million people. In 2016, the country had 47 attempted homicides with firearms. The country's overall murder rate is near zero.

Switzerland hasn't had a mass shooting since 2001, when a man stormed the local parliament in Zug, killing 14 people and then himself. That's over 20 years ago. Here's a good article on the Swiss and their liberalized gun laws: Switzerland Gun Laws: Why the Country Has Fewer Gun Deaths Than the US (businessinsider.com)

So, I repeat, you can't look at guns to find the reason for so much violence it the USA, you have to look at the culture of Americans instead.
What is funny about this post..... in an ironic way of course, is that Michael Moore addressed this issue in his documentry Bowling for Columbine, and the significant difference in shootings around the world compaired to the united states.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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What is funny about this post..... in an ironic way of course, is that Michael Moore addressed this issue in his documentry Bowling for Columbine, and the significant difference in shootings around the world compaired to the united states.
I heard today that the US has the worst homicide rate from guns among 193 countries, but if you remove the data from five cities, all run by democrats, all with the strongest gun regulations in the country (LA, Chicago, NYC, Philadelphia and Washington DC) then the US is 183 out of 193.
 

I_am_Canadian

Senior Member
Dec 8, 2014
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I heard today that the US has the worst homicide rate from guns among 193 countries, but if you remove the data from five cities, all run by democrats, all with the strongest gun regulations in the country (LA, Chicago, NYC, Philadelphia and Washington DC) then the US is 183 out of 193.
Wow, that is bad.
 

Robertt

Well-known member
May 22, 2019
899
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Bahrain
Guns simply cannot be blamed for the high murder rate in the USA and not for the large numbers of mass shootings either. It is a cultural problem. Switzerland is a country with the most liberal gun laws in the world. Switzerland encourages it's citizens to own guns as protection against invaders. This policy has enabled Switzerland to remain neutral through the major wars.

The country has about 2 million privately owned guns in a nation of 8.3 million people. In 2016, the country had 47 attempted homicides with firearms. The country's overall murder rate is near zero.

Switzerland hasn't had a mass shooting since 2001, when a man stormed the local parliament in Zug, killing 14 people and then himself. That's over 20 years ago. Here's a good article on the Swiss and their liberalized gun laws: Switzerland Gun Laws: Why the Country Has Fewer Gun Deaths Than the US (businessinsider.com)

So, I repeat, you can't look at guns to find the reason for so much violence it the USA, you have to look at the culture of Americans instead.
yes you are right it is culture problem

Sadly can we wait for the culture to change and watch more die.

Or while they changing the culture should something be done differently ?

Once the culture changes to more like Switzerland. then guns can be made available again

Culture is hard to change though
 

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2021
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I have heard this statement used in the context of debate on gun ownership, can someone explain please?
As a maniac behind a steering wheel is held responsible for an accident not the vehicle .. So guns that's what they mean. A gun in the hand of right person is an excellent form of self defence and everyone has the right to defend himself to safety .
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Why are military rifles being released to the general public?? I guess because the us milirary system is different and almost every citizen does military service it makes sence military grade weapons would be released to the general public.
They aren't, end of story.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
But, but, but .......GLOBAL WARMING

Just saw on the news they are going to make people in the cities have "green roofs". They have to have some type of vegetation on their roofs, obviously the flat ones. Supposed to stop global warming. smh What a fraud on the people GW is.
 

Handyman62

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2021
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Rural South Carolina
yes you are right it is culture problem

Sadly can we wait for the culture to change and watch more die.

Or while they changing the culture should something be done differently ?

Once the culture changes to more like Switzerland. then guns can be made available again

Culture is hard to change though

How about we ban the murderous culture rather than the innocent gun owners?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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As a maniac behind a steering wheel is held responsible for an accident not the vehicle .. So guns that's what they mean. A gun in the hand of right person is an excellent form of self defence and everyone has the right to defend himself to safety .
If we are going to compare guns to cars, and I think that is a very fair analogy, then you need to include everything.

1. Everyone should have to get a license before being able to use a gun. So imagine a gang member is caught with a gun but we can't prove a crime so we have to let him go. No, if he doesn't have a license that proves he is qualified to use a gun then that would be the same offense as catching someone driving a car without a license. This process should involve a written test that can be done on the computer at DMV or some other location and then you should have to appear on the shooting range with a gun instructor who will certify that you know how to properly use a gun and keep it safe.

2. Everyone who buys a gun must also get liability insurance. No one talks about this because compared to the deaths this seems trivial, but it would go a very long way to preventing these events. Think about the 19 kids and two teachers shot and killed. The insurance company would have to pay out damages, say $1 million to each person killed. This one event would have cost them over $20 million, and there would be other damages besides those who are killed. Here is why this is important. You have a big, powerful rich company with a financial interest to prevent these attacks.

When this kid goes to buy his guns and his ammo and his bullet proof vests or any other equipment he has to provide proof of insurance. As a result the insurance company would immediately be notified and using their powerful computers and algorithms and AI there would be an immediate Red Flag pop up.

Not only so but insurance companies would give you discounts if you list your social media accounts, so by monitoring those the red flags would pop up two weeks before the event.

What we need is a powerful ally with the resources and tools to spot and react to red flag events like an 18 year old kid saying he is going to commit mass murder on social media or with an 18 year old working part time at a fast food restaurant buying 83k worth of guns, ammo, equipment and a truck.

Do you want to know why Chicago has such horrific gun crime? When we find the bullets and shell casings we could identify the gun, however, this information is not allowed to be digitized so investigators have to go to trailers housing millions of paper documents that provide that information. It is an impossible task. However, if everything were on the various Insurance agencies computers then it would be easy for the cops to send out a request to all the insurance agencies to identify the gun and the owner and they could immediately get a hit and a response.

Again, if a gang member is caught with a gun and they don't have insurance that would be another violation they could charge them with.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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Our culture, not guns, is to blame for the mass killings. The individuals who perpetrate these insane murderous rampages are filled with hate for others and maybe for themselves. They also want attention and killing people is a way of getting that attention.

Is it possible to change a country's culture to eliminate murder and violence? Actually it is but it is time consuming, won't happen overnight, and it requires that the people actually want/demand change. Here's a couple of examples of where murderous cultures actually did manage to change for the better:

In Northern Ireland, Protestants and Catholics were murdering each other, men/women/children, for political reasons. This went on for 30 years, 1968-1998 with no apparant solution. But the people finally got sick and tired of all the carnage and quit the violence, agreeing to share government power and live in peace. The Protestants and Catholics of N Ireland may not love one another but they have put away their weapons.

If you look at the USA, in the South there were many murders of blacks and those who supported rights for African Americans. There were many sadistic murders of individuals, lynchings, church/school bombings.....etc... The hatred seemed overwhelming, Yet today, in 2022, this type of violence has disappeared in the South. And many Southerners see the errors of their ways. Yes, there may still be hatred between the races in the South, but the murders have stopped.

When murder/hatred is prevalent people have a choice to stop it or to continue on. That is the case in the Mideast between the Israelis and the Palestinians. No peace in sight after 75 years because of the hatreds and the philosophy of 'An Eye for an Eye......'

It's up to the people of the world to stop the murders. But, frankly, it doesn't look good for the USA. The USA is abandoning Christianity very rapidly, abandoning Jesus' teaching of 'Love thy neighbor and enemy'. Secularists don't believe in any of the teachings of Christ. Why should they, they don't believe in Jesus.

Expect things to get worse in the USA, no matter how many laws the country makes about guns. When people hate others they will kill others. And don't make the mistake of thinking that this is a 'mental health issue' because it itsn't. Instead it's a matter of evil pride that demands that I get my own way.
 

Robertt

Well-known member
May 22, 2019
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Bahrain
How about we ban the murderous culture rather than the innocent gun owners?
cant ban culture . need to change it. that is very hard to do.

as i say whilst nothinh changes due to arguments every year. more innocent children are killed.

Stop debating . make a change
 

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2021
404
288
63
If we are going to compare guns to cars, and I think that is a very fair analogy, then you need to include everything.

1. Everyone should have to get a license before being able to use a gun. So imagine a gang member is caught with a gun but we can't prove a crime so we have to let him go. No, if he doesn't have a license that proves he is qualified to use a gun then that would be the same offense as catching someone driving a car without a license. This process should involve a written test that can be done on the computer at DMV or some other location and then you should have to appear on the shooting range with a gun instructor who will certify that you know how to properly use a gun and keep it safe.

2. Everyone who buys a gun must also get liability insurance. No one talks about this because compared to the deaths this seems trivial, but it would go a very long way to preventing these events. Think about the 19 kids and two teachers shot and killed. The insurance company would have to pay out damages, say $1 million to each person killed. This one event would have cost them over $20 million, and there would be other damages besides those who are killed. Here is why this is important. You have a big, powerful rich company with a financial interest to prevent these attacks.

When this kid goes to buy his guns and his ammo and his bullet proof vests or any other equipment he has to provide proof of insurance. As a result the insurance company would immediately be notified and using their powerful computers and algorithms and AI there would be an immediate Red Flag pop up.

Not only so but insurance companies would give you discounts if you list your social media accounts, so by monitoring those the red flags would pop up two weeks before the event.

What we need is a powerful ally with the resources and tools to spot and react to red flag events like an 18 year old kid saying he is going to commit mass murder on social media or with an 18 year old working part time at a fast food restaurant buying 83k worth of guns, ammo, equipment and a truck.

Do you want to know why Chicago has such horrific gun crime? When we find the bullets and shell casings we could identify the gun, however, this information is not allowed to be digitized so investigators have to go to trailers housing millions of paper documents that provide that information. It is an impossible task. However, if everything were on the various Insurance agencies computers then it would be easy for the cops to send out a request to all the insurance agencies to identify the gun and the owner and they could immediately get a hit and a response.

Again, if a gang member is caught with a gun and they don't have insurance that would be another violation they could charge them with.
You have a good point about having licensing and insurance . and gun laws should be stricter . lives are saved also with stricter laws for acquiring firearms. I was just explain the statement I don't agree with the saying personally.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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You have a good point about having licensing and insurance . and gun laws should be stricter . lives are saved also with stricter laws for acquiring firearms. I was just explain the statement I don't agree with the saying personally.

Stricter gun laws would help limit the acquisition of guns. But here is what law abiding gun owners are afraid of. If you allow the anti-gun politicians an inch they'll take a mile. If you allow them to pass one anti gun bill, make no mistake that there will be another such law right around the corner.....then another etc.............

I disagree with you 100% on having to register a firearm. Only law abiding citizens would do this, for sure criminals wouldn't. And, once you register your firearm, the govetrnent can knock on your door when they decide the time is right, and take it.

Like many on this board, I'm a law abiding citizen and own both a hand gun and M1 Carbine. Neither has been fired for 40 years and both are safely secured. But, frankly, I'd never register them with the government no matter what laws they passed. Frankly I don't trust the government at all.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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Stricter gun laws would help limit the acquisition of guns. But here is what law abiding gun owners are afraid of. If you allow the anti-gun politicians an inch they'll take a mile. If you allow them to pass one anti gun bill, make no mistake that there will be another such law right around the corner.....then another etc.............

I disagree with you 100% on having to register a firearm. Only law abiding citizens would do this, for sure criminals wouldn't. And, once you register your firearm, the govetrnent can knock on your door when they decide the time is right, and take it.

Like many on this board, I'm a law abiding citizen and own both a hand gun and M1 Carbine. Neither has been fired for 40 years and both are safely secured. But, frankly, I'd never register them with the government no matter what laws they passed. Frankly I don't trust the government at all.

And, make no mistake, if you have to register your gun like you do your automobile, then the government will demand an annual tax on your gun like they do on your auto registration.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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Stricter gun laws would help limit the acquisition of guns. But here is what law abiding gun owners are afraid of. If you allow the anti-gun politicians an inch they'll take a mile. If you allow them to pass one anti gun bill, make no mistake that there will be another such law right around the corner.....then another etc.............

I disagree with you 100% on having to register a firearm. Only law abiding citizens would do this, for sure criminals wouldn't. And, once you register your firearm, the govetrnent can knock on your door when they decide the time is right, and take it.

Like many on this board, I'm a law abiding citizen and own both a hand gun and M1 Carbine. Neither has been fired for 40 years and both are safely secured. But, frankly, I'd never register them with the government no matter what laws they passed. Frankly I don't trust the government at all.
I agree with you that a government registry of Guns is a violation of the 2nd Amendment and is unconstitutional.

However, having a variety of private insurers have this information that the government would then have to subpoena in the event of a crime is not a violation. This is why I say we need liability insurance for gun owners.

This will not be expensive. They will take into account the type of gun, your history as a gun owner, and where you live. Buying a rifle to shoot bear for someone living in Alaska or Montana would be far different from someone buying a handgun who lives in Chicago.

If you have owned guns for 20 years it would probably be a routine task to get another one. But if you are 18 and this is your first gun and you want an AR-15 or a Glock they would probably want a deeper dive. Access to your medical records, mental health records, and social media accounts.

Let's say after this review everything is fine and you can buy the gun. You then want to buy 3,000 rounds of ammo, bullet proof vest, and a second gun. They may balk at that. For example when you filled out the application you may have said you want to fire the gun at ranges as a hobby. OK, you can buy your ammo at the range that you are shooting. Why do you need 3,000 rounds at home?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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And, make no mistake, if you have to register your gun like you do your automobile, then the government will demand an annual tax on your gun like they do on your auto registration.
There was a reason that "registration" of firearms is prohibited in our Constitution... That registry list gives a tyrannical government the names and addresses of people to make "disappear"...
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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OK, you can buy your ammo at the range that you are shooting. Why do you need 3,000 rounds at home?
Ammo at ranges is notoriously over priced. And, an empty gun is just a poorly designed club.

Most people buy ammo when it is on sale.... much like anything else.... ever wonder why Black Friday is so crazy?
If ammo is nearly half of what it usually is, most people stock up. There are also ammo shortages, when you cannot find ammo at ANY price. A wise consumer buys when the prices are low, and supply is high.
So it's ok to stockpile toilet paper and peanut butter, but not ammo? Isn't that a tad prejudicial?
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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There was a reason that "registration" of firearms is prohibited in our Constitution... That registry list gives a tyrannical government the names and addresses of people to make "disappear"...
I agree, however, "a well regulated militia" could definitely include liability insurance particularly based on our recent history. After these various mass shootings are victims compensated monetarily? If the answer is no that is outrageous.

If a cop is shot and killed in the line of duty the survivors get $175,000 one time payment and there is also a monthly supplementary income benefit equal to the monthly salary of the person killed. This doesn't apply to teachers! Why not, that is outrageous!

Also why are tax payers paying this? The person who shot the officer or teacher should be liable.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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Ammo at ranges is notoriously over priced. And, an empty gun is just a poorly designed club.

Most people buy ammo when it is on sale.... much like anything else.... ever wonder why Black Friday is so crazy?
If ammo is nearly half of what it usually is, most people stock up. There are also ammo shortages, when you cannot find ammo at ANY price. A wise consumer buys when the prices are low, and supply is high.
So it's ok to stockpile toilet paper and peanut butter, but not ammo? Isn't that a tad prejudicial?
Yes, and 18 year olds pay more for liability insurance than 50 year olds with a history of safe driving.

If the kid has a dad or uncle then they can buy the ammo and he can pay them back for it.

This kid in Texas didn't buy his ammo on black Friday. No doubt the insurance algorithms can take sale prices into account.

I have always had life insurance as part of my job, it is perfunctory, the amount is enough to bury you without any financial hardship on your family. However, recently we almost got life insurance for my wife on our own. That is a completely different thing, they go through your medical history with a fine tooth comb, the process is extremely intrusive and ultimately I talked my wife out of it because it is a racket. That is just the way it is.