Who are you voting for?

[Helloimandrewyo]

What an odd thread. Kids trying to belong to certian labels ammuse me. If you fit completely into one category, you probably need to reexamine where you stand. There are somethings worth being conservative about, but it's good to be liberal in some ways.

I feel Christ is what would have been considered a liberal in his day. He was a reformist, and didn't allow for him to be bound to the legalism of His day and age. Even Socialism in it's purest form seems to be supported in the Bible.

I think people shouldn't be so concerened about fitting in, but be more concerned about being real. If your real with yourself, it's hard to fit in to one cookie cutter.

 

[hhhlga89]

What an odd thread. Kids trying to belong to certian labels ammuse me. If you fit completely into one category, you probably need to reexamine where you stand. There are somethings worth being conservative about, but it's good to be liberal in some ways.

I feel Christ is what would have been considered a liberal in his day. He was a reformist, and didn't allow for him to be bound to the legalism of His day and age. Even Socialism in it's purest form seems to be supported in the Bible.

I think people shouldn't be so concerened about fitting in, but be more concerned about being real. If your real with yourself, it's hard to fit in to one cookie cutter.

O wow, we're in election season, and asking people who they'd vote for is somehow odd.... this is purely idiodic. What catagory am I or anyone else putting themeselves into when they ask "who are you votiong for?"? I think you're confusing asking "who are you voting for?" with "what party are you affiliated with?" Asking who you're voting for does not put you in any "category"........I can be a republican and vote for obama or a democrat and vote for Romney, for whatever reason, or I can be an independant. How does asking someone who they're voting put them (or me) into a "category"? If you taking what your saying to it's logical conclusion, you're saying christians shouldn't vote -because we'd be putting ourselves into a "category", which is wrong, apparently.

Another thing, it doesn't matter what man thinks. John 2:25 "and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man." so Jesus was not "liberal" in God's eyes (in the popular sense of the word), he was holy. And you have to understand liberal in America (or other more developed countries) is different than liberal in a place like the middle east, if you're trying to make a comparison.

How is exercising my constitution right, and personal duty to vote for the person I think will best lead my country trying to "fit in"????? Look, this is beyond bizzare, where do you get your reasoning from? Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society ???

 

[meecha]

Go ahead, people, defend your position. Explain to us how Jesus would agree with giving the Scribes and the Pharasees tax breaks while the poor get nothing. Show me Scripture where Jesus said, "Blessed are the Rich, for they have found favor with God, but cursed are the poor, for they don't have anything now and that's the way it should be."

I'm waiting.

Jesus upheld the Torah Grunge and the Torah teaches taxation at around 12%-15% annually. It does not teach a graded form of taxation. In fact it teaches directly against varied rate taxes insisting that the law is the same for the poor as for the rich. The Torah states that the poor man is not permitted to steal a loaf of bread for his starving children. I am not defending Justcoz' definition of "liberal" since I consider myself a classic liberal in many respects but Jesus was not a socialist. He said "the poor you have with you always". That is to say...there is always an opportunity to minister to the poor and that is a fundamental role of the Church. It is not lawful for A ( the state) to tax B (the wealthy)to give to C( the poor) except for what God has mandated in His Word. Since the Biblical tithes are no longer functional the tithe now supports the work of the Church. The state should concern itself with the rule of Law and defence of the realm. For that it can collect taxes. Salvation is through the Gospel; there is no salvation in politics and certainly not socialist politics. Welfare is the job of the Church and the Church will do welfare far better and more effectivley than the state. Of course other institutions can also do welfare as they see fit. Jesus never supports the idea of big government having massive power to tax for it's own programs. That is idolatory.

 

[OFM]

i am voting for who i vote for.
as God tells me too and i vote on the issues that way 2.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

O wow, we're in election season, and asking people who they'd vote for is somehow odd.... this is purely idiodic.

I could be wrong, but I thought hellowimandrewyo was not saying the initial question of the post was odd, but the direction the thread had taken was odd. Of course, discussing who you may or may not vote for doesn't indicate any sort of labeling. However, assuming that if a person favors one candidate over another, they must be a certain way ... I think that's where he was going. For example, I prefer Obama to Romney (like I prefer a broken leg to an amputated leg -- it's a matter of degree) and many people assume that makes me anti-Christian. I am guilty of the same thing: I assume if you prefer Romney you must be one of those money-hungry tea-party idiots. Which is silly, because I know a lot of people who support Romney and aren't idiots.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Jesus upheld the Torah Grunge and the Torah teaches taxation at around 12%-15% annually.

Can you provide BCV for this? It's not that I doubt it's there, I just don't remember exactly where the Pentateuch mentioned specifically 12-15% taxation.

In fact it teaches directly against varied rate taxes insisting that the law is the same for the poor as for the rich.

Well, this is misleading.

The law, as far as what you follow, is the same whether you are poor or rich.

However, both the Old and New testaments make it clear that God and Jesus expect you to give more if you have more. Think of the lesson Jesus taught when the widow put in two measly coins in the basket. Of those who have much, much will be required. Paul said that, too.

The Torah states that the poor man is not permitted to steal a loaf of bread for his starving children.

There's another one, I'm going to have to see BCV. The only thing that comes close to this that I know of is in the Prophets, where the prophet is condemning the rulers of the nation because poor men have to steal bread to feed their children. Yes, a poor man should not have to steal bread to feed his children, but that's not a sin of the poor, but a sin of the rich, and in fact, according to the Prophets (see Amos and Micah for references), a sin of the nation.

Now, maybe I'm forgetting a passage that says it is a sin of a poor man if he steals bread to feed his starving children? But if you're talking about the passage I'm thinking of, the Prophet makes it clear the sin is in the rich and powerful who allowed the poor to starve, not with the poor who are starving.

And that's in the Prophets, not in the Torah. Perhaps you're thinking of another passage?

It is not lawful for A ( the state) to tax B (the wealthy)to give to C( the poor) except for what God has mandated in His Word.

First, I'm going to need a BCV for this, too.

Secondly, since God HAS mandated that a nation is responsible for the poor, the widows and orphans, the aliens, all those who suffer, then God has already mandated that the wealthy members of a nation must give to the poor. Since the mandate is already there, even if you provide for me some backup for the above statement, it's kinda moot.

The state should concern itself with the rule of Law and defence of the realm.

And what makes you think making sure everyone has the opportunity to get food, education, housing, etc., is NOT a strong defense, both domestic and international?

Salvation is through the Gospel; there is no salvation in politics and certainly not socialist politics.

I have never said nor implied otherwise.

But since Jesus said, "Feed my Lambs," I'd like to see how you manage to preach the gospel without following what Jesus commanded.

Welfare is the job of the Church and the Church will do welfare far better and more effectivley than the state.

Again, I agree, and I have neither said nor implied otherwise, as long as you include your next sentence:

Of course other institutions can also do welfare as they see fit.

Jesus never supports the idea of big government having massive power to tax for it's own programs.

I have never met anyone who uses the phrase "big government" -- including my dear, beloved husband whom I love and for whom I would lay down my life -- who has a clue what he's talking about, and what "big government" vs. "small government" really means, and that "small government" would completely end civilization as we know it.

That is idolatory.

Of course, putting your faith in any human institution is idolatry. Supporting human institutions to do God's work is not.

If God can use the Pharaoh to do His will, I'm pretty sure God can use either the Democratic or the Republican party to accomplish His works in our world. Why should we fight against what God has told us to do, just because some of the people in those parties are non-Christian?

(Psst: here's a hint: we shouldn't.)

 

[Crossfire]

There are somethings worth being conservative about, but it's good to be liberal in some ways.

I feel Christ is what would have been considered a liberal in his day. He was a reformist, and didn't allow for him to be bound to the legalism of His day and age.

If you understand your bible and the history that comes with it.... then you know that it was the Pharisees and the Sadduccees in charge who were the liberals in the era that Christ lived. Christ not only disregarded what we now consider "orthodox" traditions (ie. the Talmud), He spoke out against them then performed miracles to prove His divine authority.

Everything that Christ had done and spoken not only upheld the Old Testament scriptures, He fulfilled them. Christ was both a restorationist and a revivalist.

 

[Deadtosin]

U.S. Politics is not in our hands, it's an illusion. They are all puppets and if they aren't willing to move with the strings they don't get that far, and if after they get there they become independent they are killed. We live in a giant deceptive web and the media is one of their biggest weapons. This is not a conspiracy theory it is a high probability. There is more evidence laying around regarding this than there is that a boeing 757 struck the pentagon.

 

[OFM]

Matt.6 i vote for Gods' Goverment Thy Will Be Done On Earth As It Is In Heaven,i vote that each and every day allways we all should i spiritually personally believe.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

If you understand your bible and the history that comes with it.... then you know that it was the Pharisees and the Sadduccees in charge who were the liberals in the era that Christ lived. Christ not only disregarded what we now consider "orthodox" traditions (ie. the Talmud), He spoke out against them then performed miracles to prove His divine authority.

Hmmm.

I'm curious as to how you define "liberal" and "conservative"

The generic definitions, taking out political bias, of these terms are as follows:

Liberal -- favoring change and reform.
Conservative -- favoring the status quo, preference for traditional values.

The second part of your post, you point out that Jesus went against the orthodox traditions of his time. That makes him, by definition, liberal. The Pharisees and, to a lesser extent, the Sadducees, were all about keeping the status quo, which makes them, by definition, conservative.

So, either you don't know what "liberal" and "conservative" mean, or you misspoke when you said "Christ disregarded what we now consider orthodox traditions," because that sentence alone makes Jesus a liberal.

Curious as to which you believe.

 

[Jordache]

We just had a convo about politics and grace in my bible study last night. Why do Christians get so defensive and arrogant about politics? Jesus saw people first. We tend to look at the issues and overlook the person altogether. Imagine if the story of the woman at the well had been slightly different. Imagine if instead of seeing a child of God who had differing morals from him, he saw her sin first. She was not identified by her morals. She was identified by her likeness to the image of God.

 

[meecha]

Can you provide BCV for this? It's not that I doubt it's there, I just don't remember exactly where the Pentateuch mentioned specifically 12-15% taxation.

there are 2 tithes in the 5teuch. One mandates 10% annually and the other bi ( or tri) annually. The tithes are for the Levites, the feasts and poor welfare.

However, both the Old and New testaments make it clear that God and Jesus expect you to give more if you have more. Think of the lesson Jesus taught when the widow put in two measly coins in the basket. Of those who have much, much will be required. Paul said that, too.

no problem here but this is re the Church. This is not a mandate for godless governments to tax for welfare.

There's another one, I'm going to have to see BCV. The only thing that comes close to this that I know of is in the Prophets, where the prophet is condemning the rulers of the nation because poor men have to steal bread to feed their children. Yes, a poor man should not have to steal bread to feed his children, but that's not a sin of the poor, but a sin of the rich, and in fact, according to the Prophets (see Amos and Micah for references), a sin of the nation.

have used a combination of Lev 19.15 and Ex 22.3. of course it is a dreadful thing when the poor have to steal bread....they should beg before they steal...but in God's economy this should never be necessary. Paul says he who does not work should not eat. The Church never administers welfare unconditionally. Everyone can do something and that is why privatised welfare is morally superior to state welfare; nobody gets to sit around doing nothing.

Secondly, since God HAS mandated that a nation is responsible for the poor, the widows and orphans, the aliens, all those who suffer, then God has already mandated that the wealthy members of a nation must give to the poor. Since the mandate is already there, even if you provide for me some backup for the above statement, it's kinda moot.

don't see why. God mandates that all Israel pay tithes of 10% to the theocratic government but we don't have a theocratic government. I believe the inference from OT tithing is that we should tithe to the Church for the same reasons as Israel tithed to the Levites....namely the support of the ministry and the welfare of the poor.

And what makes you think making sure everyone has the opportunity to get food, education, housing, etc., is NOT a strong defense, both domestic and international?

it may or may not be but if the government decides it is ...it does not have the right to take your money to fund it. That is theft.

But since Jesus said, "Feed my Lambs," I'd like to see how you manage to preach the gospel without following what Jesus commanded.

context please Jesus is talking to Peter about pastoral ministry.

Again, I agree, and I have neither said nor implied otherwise, as long as you include your next sentence:

obviously other institutions here excludes the state. the mosque, the synagogue and the local secular society are free to give to charity...its just that the church tends to do this more.

I have never met anyone who uses the phrase "big government" -- including my dear, beloved husband whom I love and for whom I would lay down my life -- who has a clue what he's talking about, and what "big government" vs. "small government" really means, and that "small government" would completely end civilization as we know it.

add up the various branches of government today and compare it to 200 years ago and you have an answer. Big government is ..well...BIG! and small government is small. Take a list of government departments and abolish them and you are on the way to smaller government. I think Grunge that you have much faith in secular government to fight the cause of human progress. Socialists believe that politicians and bureaucrats are better at spending the peoples money than the people but socialists really believe in the goodness of the state which is why they always argue for more state power.

 

[sadlonelymissjennifer]

One thing I think is ridiculous is I had a "friend" that told me to get off his friend list if I was voting for Romney. I told him he was being ridiculous!! What a jerk! lol!!

 

[simplyme_bekah]

I think I might just pray for all of them and let God decide who wins lol.

 

[AgapeSpiritEyes]

This is not good divisions opening our hearts to divisions about a passing away government, all these governments on this earth we will be leaving behind we are training to be ambassadors for the government of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords on this earth over people in Jesus' Kingdom, For me the definition of a conservative is to conserve the Constitution given to us by many men who sought God to deliver us from selfish and jealous national kings and leaders and that constitution has no equal comparatively to any other on this earth, except the Contract of the Theogracy of God to the children of Israel which is not in effect now in Israel, for each individual is considered to have rights perceived by man in their counscious of God for other mankind. But the time of this excellent constitution has run it's course sin and selfishness with jealousy has opened the door of discord and every evil from satan this government has already been broken and will in the next year be completely broken so that the promise of the Lattter Rain will be poured out on the Body of Christ. Jesus empowering us to fullfill the love of God to reach the farthermost places where people have not been reached to rescue them with good news. Purpose? to go litterally to up to worship Jesus while God's time of Wrath for seven years works to entreat all those who refused to work with the wise virgins and by their error receive His uttermost mercy to die for Jesus to receive the blessing of joining those in the first resurrection. This seems to digress but this is at the door of really happening in the next 8 months. I am a conservative by agreement to the constitution rights granted for me but i am willing to forsake it not for a vision of someone whose vision takes my rights away or foists their power of government on me to rule over me directly telling me that their power is to annul all or some of the constitional rights i have been give so, i opt out of all my hope and desire for man's vision and ideas of governimg over me and in place i chose to completely give my self to deny my life of this world take up my cross follow Jesus to go up to worship Him and eat the supper in His presence with firm conviction this is coming in less than a year WOW that is a foretaste of ecstacy for me!

 

[JimJimmers]

One thing I think is ridiculous is I had a "friend" that told me to get off his friend list if I was voting for Romney. I told him he was being ridiculous!! What a jerk! lol!!

I hope you took him off your friends list, no matter how you vote.

 

[OFM]

I think I might just pray for all of them and let God decide who wins lol.

I AGREE WITH YOU

 

[Ugly]

What an odd thread. Kids trying to belong to certian labels ammuse me. If you fit completely into one category, you probably need to reexamine where you stand. There are somethings worth being conservative about, but it's good to be liberal in some ways.

I feel Christ is what would have been considered a liberal in his day. He was a reformist, and didn't allow for him to be bound to the legalism of His day and age. Even Socialism in it's purest form seems to be supported in the Bible.

I think people shouldn't be so concerened about fitting in, but be more concerned about being real. If your real with yourself, it's hard to fit in to one cookie cutter.

Really, a 23 year old referring to the people in this thread as 'kids' when probably over half them are older than he is?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Jesus upheld the Torah Grunge and the Torah teaches taxation at around 12%-15% annually.

Can you provide BCV for this? It's not that I doubt it's there, I just don't remember exactly where the Pentateuch mentioned specifically 12-15% taxation.

there are 2 tithes in the 5teuch. One mandates 10% annually and the other bi ( or tri) annually. The tithes are for the Levites, the feasts and poor welfare.

So in other words you were wrong. Hey, just admit it. I make mistakes too sometimes. It's much better if you fess up and say, "Oops, sorry, I misspoke. It's 10%, not 12% or 15%. Sorry."

As for the rest of the discourse, you are right. In the Old Testament, the Prophets are referring to the theocratic government of Israel, because that was the government that existed when the Prophets were there.

I don't see how you can reason that, just because our government is not theocratic, and Israel was, it necessarily follows that God does not expect our government to treat its citizens as kindly as He expects a theocratic government to treat its citizens. Sure, we can't claim that God is the reason we treat our citizens well, but does that mean we should not treat them well, just because God is not in charge?

When God says, "When I was hungry, you did not feed me; when I was naked, you did not clothe me; when I was sick, you did not care for me..." I don't think saying, "Well, sorry, God, I gave all my money to the church, so there was none left for you," is going to get you off the hook.

Absolutely the church should be doing charity work. And it is. And it will continue to do so.

There are more than enough poor people in this world, and not enough churches, that it needs to be more than that. We cannot say that ONLY the churches should provide for the poor. You think that if you eliminate taxes for welfare programs, everyone will donate their excess money to various charities? They will not, and this has been proven time and time again. (You can look it up -- whenever taxes go down, individual support for various non-profit welfare decreases even more, when the need for them goes up. This is a fact.)

The vehicle for aid to the poor is absolutely non-profit institutions. I agree that huge government agencies do not run welfare programs efficiently. However, the funding for these programs MUST be public; there is no other source of funding that can be relied upon. The vehicle for aid is small, non-profit organizations, including but not limited to churches, synagogues, mosques, and non-religious centers. The gas on which those vehicles run is tithes: donations from church members, or taxes from citizens.

This is justice. And this is what God demands. Anything less is a sin, and work of the Devil.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Really, a 23 year old referring to the people in this thread as 'kids' when probably over half them are older than he is?

At 23, he is wiser than some of the 40-50-year-olds on this board.

Also, he may only have been referring to those younger than himself.

Or not. I've heard "kids" used as slang for "people," the way "guys" is used to refer to both men and women. "You kids go on and have a good time; I'm gonna stay home and get some stuff done around the house."

Either way, the content of his post was spot-on.