Den of Thieves

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Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
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Philippines Age 40
#21
Rev 3:14-17

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


"Christianity is big business these days"

Business is booming for a church that compromises and promotes LGBT, abortion, and other political issues that are unchristian.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#22
Hmm... well... "coffee shop as social tool" wasn't really within the purview of this thread. But it is a good topic, one that we need to consider, and I do have some thoughts on it. So I will acknowledge it as off topic and make one big post on the subject.

[OFFTOPIC]

I think coffee shops can be very useful to make newcomers feel welcome and foster a sense of community in the church body. Throughout history the church was always supposed to be a community of believers, not just a building where a group of people met to sing a few songs and hear a sermon. Socializing has always been and should always be a major part of a church - it should be a church FAMILY, not just a group of people who happen to attend church services at the same place.

I do think it should be either a community builder OR a fundraiser. I believe it should not try to be both. Either it should be run as a business, with a cash register, menu, budget and bookkeeping, or it should be run as a community coffee club with people donating coffee and snacks for everybody to enjoy. If a church is trying to make its coffee bar serve both purposes, the coffee bar is trying to meet two different goals that (imo) are mutually incompatible.

And now for a counterpoint to all I just said:
https://www.premierchristianity.com/Blog/Why-the-Church-doesn-t-need-any-more-coffee-bars

Please note: I do not agree with all the blog said. I do think the coffee bar can be a valuable tool in the church for EITHER fundraising OR community building. But the blog does have a good point. There are some churches that have lost the ministry aspect of their ministry because they focus only on fostering community. The church should have social aspects, but if it is ONLY a social club it has no power and no real purpose... and no longer has any ministry.


Oh yeah... and all of this is only my own opinion. If anybody knows of a church that has made the coffee bar serve both purposes and serve both very well, please do mention it.
[/OFFTOPIC]

And now back to our regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,799
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#23
I'm just waiting to tally up how many times the passages about how money is the root of all evil (actually, it's the love of money, not money itself), and that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven will be quoted (but yet many of the major figures in the Bible weren't exactly poor.) I often wonder if Abraham's wife Sarah would have ever been seen shopping in Walmart in today's world.

Ah, money and the church - a debate that's sure to last until Jesus finally comes back.

I've wondered about these things as well whenever I go to pick up a new Bible and have to try to avoid tripping over the racks, shelves, and dishes of "Jesus" lunch boxes (loaves and fishes, of course!), "Jesus" arm bands, "Jesus" kitchen utensils (nothing like making bread in a pan that reminds you that Jesus is the bread of life), and, quite literally, "Jesus" rocks (an actual pan of rocks with inspirational words, passages, or messages on them.)

Now I am all for having Jesus-themed merchandise available to us... But as someone who's grown up in the church all my life, unfortunately, I only have more questions and no solid answers.

1. Rodney made an interesting point about the fact that most people (including myself) want to come to a church where comfort and benefit are involved, especially these days. Everyone wants comfortable seats in a temperature controlled building, an outstanding praise and worship team, a wide array of refreshments, and sermons that knock us off our feet with feel-good messages that tell us how much God loves us and is going to heal our sicknesses and solve all our problems.

And all of those things, whether outwardly admitted or not, take money. No one is going to show up if the church is too hot, too cold, too uncomfortable ("I can't stand those hard pews!"), has too much or too little lighting, or is too loud or too soft. Even if a church has talented musicians, no one will come if the sound system is too outdated to be able to comfortable hear the worship. Everyone (including me) is looking for their own version of a Goldilocks church in which everything is JUST RIGHT.

Churches that can't provide those things quickly go under, because everyone wants them... but who should have to pay for them?

There is a myriad of things I'd love to bring up here, but don't want to run the risk of boring people to death :D, so I'll just mention a few observations.

2. Years ago, I wrote a thread called, "We Want to Have Another Baby - and We Want You to Pay For It." This was a thread based on real-life things I'd encountered with some of the missionaries my church supported - Godly, loving people who were following what they believed was their calling from God, and felt that part of this calling was to expand their families.

But I was left asking myself, what separates their need and want from any other Christian family who wants to have a child, and does being part of the mission field automatically mean that the people supporting them should be expected to up their donations (taking away from their own families or own desire to have another child) in order to pay for it?

3. The Lutheran synod I grew up in (WELS) believes in having their own separate school system as an option for Christian education, but unfortunately, usually (at least where I grew up), has absolutely no means to pay for it except donations from its members, and that never seems to work out very well. People only have so much to give, and for some reason, that seems to go by the wayside.

At last check, the Lutheran high school I attended is 1.5 million dollars in debt. I remember when I first attended another church (in a different synod) that DID NOT HAVE ANY DEBT, and I was blown away because I didn't even think that was possible. But this was a church that believed in sticking to a budget rather than plowing ahead and hoping for miracle money to show up.

In the church I grew up in, they had great ambitions and good hearts, but also a rampant habit of always spending far beyond their means - however, it was always justified because it was believed that since they were doing the work of the Lord, somehow, the Lord would provide. I have even heard of churches praying for millionaires to come to their church, get saved, and then make massive donations, which, to me, is pretty much the spiritual equivalent of counting on winning the lottery.

And all too often, these miraculous provisions never appeared. Something I witnessed that always frustrated me in my old childhood church is that leadership often seemed to ignore what might have been God's very answer to them. My particular church had several gifted businessmen on their board of elders who put a lot of their own time, energy, and effort into drawing up reasonable budget plans for the church, which, to my limited knowledge (though I could be wrong) were always ignored. All I know is what I heard behind the scenes, and that the the church was always striving for more, more, more, and then we would see a big, bigger, outrageously-sized debt that would be printed in the church bulletin.

No, the solution was never to budget, spend within the church's means, and limit themselves to what the church could afford. No, no, no, because the men of God always knew better than men whom God had gifted in specific areas having to do with money (because after all, people who know anything about money are those dreaded camels who can't fit through the eye of the needle.) But yet, of course, the people who knew how to manage money were always expected to be the ones to give, rather than helping others learn financial responsibility as well.

Why would God drop more money into anyone's lap, even a church, if it was just going to be spent like water and with no accountability?

The one thing I do think my childhood synod got right was trying to keep their ambitions separate from outside funds, which I was reminded of when Lynx wrote about engaging in partnerships with Starbucks or Walmart.

I might be wrong about this (please correct me if I am), but the Catholic church will take donations from anyone (I don't mean that as a criticism, just as a point of difference, and maybe I'm wrong?) but the church I grew up in kept all funding within the synonymous synod network to avoid being influenced or lobbied by outside sources.

For example, in my neighborhood, kids would come around selling things for their Catholic school fundraisers all the time, but our synod never did that. All funds had to come from synod members, which is why we were always so behind in everything.

Everyone wants the "best" church that they can attend.

But who, what, and how it should be pay for?

Unfortunately, no one seems to be able to agree, and it becomes yet another point of contention that just further divides the church.
Starlight, star bright
First star I see tonight
I wish I may, I wish I might
Have the wish I wish tonight
...
...
I wish I could give one post multiple "useful" reactions.
Of course I won't get my wish. If Jiminy Cricket was here I'd squash him. :p

The point about the love of money is one that we all need to sometimes remind ourselves of. It's not being rich that is a sin. It is putting faith in riches that gets between a person and God. The reason Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter heaven is because it's so very easy to rely on money to solve your problems... when you have a lot of money to rely on. The more you have, the easier it is to not lean on God. That's the reason Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything - not because money is evil, but because, as the man's actions proved, his heart was more on his money than on God.

That's a good idea your synod had, and a good motive behind it. I believe George Washington was the one who told us to beware entangling alliances. Accepting money from companies often brings implied obligations to those companies, which a church is wise to avoid.

There are many other good points in this post, but I have nothing to say that seoul has not already said, so I'll just say I agree with the whole thing. :cool:
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#24
My thoughts in no particular order:

When we have a culture and churches full of overweight people, are we doing anyone any good by selling or giving away donughts, baked goods, or other unhealthy foods to begin with.

My church, especially recently, feels like it's become a place of fundraising. Since the year started there has been the camp jelly drive and rummage sale for camp scholarships; multiple fundraisers for the missions trip that people are going on in August (including baked potato bar, bake sale, give back nights at local restauarants, and a couple hosting a fancy dinner for donations, and the voluntary coffee bar monthly fee (you can pay monthly for unlimited cups of the good stuff, or pay per cup for the good stuff, or just drink the regular stuff for free) ; compassion sunday with lots of kids you could sponsor; and the opportunity to do some refugee relief though our missionaries in North Africa. None of those are in themselves bad things, but too many needs presented too often leads to compassion burnout and just not feeling like anything you do is really going to make a change. It can also lead to people feeling that Jesus only cares about what they can give or do for his kingdom rather than caring about people just because they're people God made and loves (regardless of what they can or can't do).

But I don't think fundraising for good causes is quite the same as what was happening in the temple when Jesus called them a den of thieves ( the manufacture and selling of "Jesus junk" (those things branded with Christian symbols that have nothing to do with christianity but more to do with showing your support for the "home team") is another story).

It's possible the church is suffering from an identity crisis: we no longer know how to be the church in a modern individualistic materialistic society and so we're trying to support those doing a bunch of good things and think maybe that's the same as doing good works. And as long as we keep busy "doing things for God" we must be becoming more holy as well.

The only other thing I think we can say is that many of our attempts to make ourselves relevant and appealing to outsiders have the opposite effect. We may invest in the coffee bar, but people don't come to church primarily to get good coffee, other places have coffee that's as good or better and you don't have to sit through a sermon to get it. So at best these surface changes are shifting the sheep (because yes all things being equal I'll go to the church that has a better tea selection and pre-service food spread) and maybe getting a few new people to step in the door, but it's not going to keep them there.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#25
Oh yeah, I was going to mention that but I forgot. Thank you cinder. In fact that was the main question I was going to raise in the thread, and in all the points I was making I forgot it. Go me!

The people Jesus objected to in the temple were selling stuff for their own profit. They weren't fundraising for missions or to pay the temple light bill... er, oil bill.

It's pretty clear that a Starbucks mini-shop in the church foyer would be beyond the pale. But where is the line between a youth group bake sale and the Starbucks mini-shop?
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
14,940
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#26
It's pretty clear that a Starbucks mini-shop in the church foyer would be beyond the pale. But where is the line between a youth group bake sale and the Starbucks mini-shop?
I think the lines have been blurred for a very long time, and probably always will be.

Disclaimer - I might be misunderstanding or remembering this wrong, so for any of you who know, please correct me - but if I remember right, one of the more popular fundraisers the local Catholic school kids would go door-to-door selling on a regular basis was those Superbooks that are full of coupons for local businesses, including large, well-known franchises.

Now I am not in any way, shape, or form trying to offend any Catholic friends who might be visiting this site, but mention this as a contrast to what my Lutheran church taught - that these were the very things the WELS synod said it was trying to avoid by "separating itself from the world." We had fundraisers-a-plenty, it's just that we weren't allowed to take them out into the community or go door-to-door. Rather, we always had to solicit the same people over and over again.

How many pancake breakfasts did you attend while growing up in the church? I know some lifelong church members who could probably set a Guinness World Record.

As pointed out in other posts, this then means that the church members are left with, and expected to pay, any and every financial need or ambition that arises within the church, all while somehow remaining cheerful and willing givers.

It's a tough line to walk and I'm not sure where the boundaries should be.

And as a side note that has nothing to do with churches...

I grew up watching Sesame Street and was greatly saddened to flip through a PBS station one day (public broadcasting system, which, when I was a kid, was set apart by supposedly being non-profit and run on donations), only to see a big, bright spot for Kellogg's breakfast cereals right before the start of a program.

People only have so much to give, and when they either can't give, won't give, or just plain run out of money, does that mean an organization, including a church, should cave to corporate sponsorship, or simply close its doors?
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#27
PBS has advertising now?! :eek:

o_O:cry::cautious:

My childhood is burning around my feet...
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,327
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#28
I think frequency of the sales and how in your face the salesmanship is has a lot to do with drawing the line. Purpose is part of it too as I think youth group bake sales for a new ping pong table or video game system in the youth room is inherently different than having a sale to raise funds for a mission trip or youth conference.

Desireability / usefulness of the product might be something to think about too as so many professionally organized fundraisers anymore ( be they school or do it yourself kits or scout popcorn / cookies) are ridiculously overpriced stuff that may well serve the maker of that stuff as much as the seller.

Maybe a good starting rule of thumb would be to have/require at least one outside of church fundraiser for every inside of church fundraiser (eg if the youth group is going to have a sunday morning bake sale, they should also do a saturday port a pit somewhere that's not the church and sell tickets to teachers at school or family friends etc). That would at least help reduce the issue of expecting the church people to be the primary source of funds. And while outright corporate access to turn church into a marketing opportunity is wrong, I don't see any issue with asking businesses in the community to support churches as good churches make for stronger communities.
 

love_comes_softly

Well-known member
Feb 13, 2019
768
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#29
I think it's important not to put God in a box. It's very possible that the Lord would have people start businesses, have sales in churches for various reasons, BUT for me it just feels wrong. It may not be, but it's kinda unsettling.

It reminds me of this situation:
We've had a guess speaker visit our church several times throughout the years and we've grown to respect the work the Lord is doing in his life and we are thankful that he comes to share with us. BUT the last time he visited, one of the ladies asked him to share more about something the Lord had shown him (he touched on it during our service) and his reply was, "You should read it in my book" and he gave her the title.

I was shocked, maybe I shouldn't have been, but it feels wrong to me that someone seeking the Lord, would be directed to buy someone's book. I feel like the news, love, truth of the Lord should be shared freely, which makes me think anything for profit seems wrong. Fundraising for things the Lord would have you do, seems more appropriate, when the Lord leads.
 

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2009
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#31
I think "the line" is crossed when the profit becomes more important than the ministry. :geek:

 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#32
Now I am not in any way, shape, or form trying to offend any Catholic friends who might be visiting this site, but mention this as a contrast to what my Lutheran church taught - that these were the very things the WELS synod said it was trying to avoid by "separating itself from the world." We had fundraisers-a-plenty, it's just that we weren't allowed to take them out into the community or go door-to-door. Rather, we always had to solicit the same people over and over again.
I am fully against Catholicism as a whole. But I cannot fault their many charities. They may be after overall profit, but they do a lot of good with their charities. You see more of it in big cities with their soup kitchens and thrift shops. Their hospitals are excellent. I think that is the main reason the Lord has blessed their growth.

Back to fundraisers. I think door-to-door is too much and produces an inconvenience for the community. The church I fellowship with does not pass the basket at its services, which I think is good and proper. Christ said: Let your alms be in secret. Members know the church runs on money and they will write the checks when appropriate. That said, fundraisers are okay but should be kept in check. Sometimes people need to be stirred to give.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that any church worth its oats should give to their local poor. All churches should present their communities with some type of mission outreach. After all, they represent God which is the master of all resources. I look at growing churches in small towns and I see most have a food and/or a clothing bank set up. It works well as I am constantly coming across clothes and food items which I no longer need. Why should they tie up our storage space when they could do some good somewhere?

Scripture tells us God is watching when we don't consider the poor and needy. Jeremiah 5:28,59
"They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?" :eek:
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
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#33
" If your church proposes a new coffee bar to the side of the fellowship hall, where will you stand on it?"

That would depend on what drinks they offer.
That's nothing, my church has a real bar, buy one Gin & Tonic and the second is free.. You wouldn't believe how many lost souls that brings in off the streets.. And talk about raising money! :)
 

JustEli

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2018
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#34
If any of us wore a ballcap and or brought a mocha to traffic court the judge would promptly scold and
reprimand us. How then do we walk into the sanctuary wearing ballcaps and sipping coffee?

Makes me sick.
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
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#35
I think it's important not to put God in a box. It's very possible that the Lord would have people start businesses, have sales in churches for various reasons, BUT for me it just feels wrong. It may not be, but it's kinda unsettling.

It reminds me of this situation:
We've had a guess speaker visit our church several times throughout the years and we've grown to respect the work the Lord is doing in his life and we are thankful that he comes to share with us. BUT the last time he visited, one of the ladies asked him to share more about something the Lord had shown him (he touched on it during our service) and his reply was, "You should read it in my book" and he gave her the title.

I was shocked, maybe I shouldn't have been, but it feels wrong to me that someone seeking the Lord, would be directed to buy someone's book. I feel like the news, love, truth of the Lord should be shared freely, which makes me think anything for profit seems wrong. Fundraising for things the Lord would have you do, seems more appropriate, when the Lord leads.
Hi lovecomes,
Was reading the thread and wanted to comment on a post or 2, but after reading ur reply, i thought abt the guest speaker offering his book. I cannot read his tone from ur post, but from my pov, he was inviting to see his book. Neither do i know (how famous he is and) how his book(s) are selling, but as an aspiring writer=)), i do not find anything wrong with him telling abt the book. Maybe there really is something he's written that he has said better or more than he can tell in a few mins. talking face to face. I dont know if he was thinking of profit when he promoted his book, but if i had such opportunity to mention the news, love and truth of the Lord in something i wrote, i could do the same=).

To many who are well off or at least comfortably blessed materially, it is easier to say that selling something in church may not seem 'right,' but in a smaller church as ours, we allow those who have something to offer, to bring and tell others in church what they have, whether pickled stuff, local rice cakes, etc.

Our ptr does not want the buying and selling predominantly advertized to outsiders, but for some members who really are striving but havent the means (cant even put up their own shop), i am glad they have the chance to see other brethren who they otherwise would not see outside sunday worship... unless they personally visit their homes or offices, wc means extra time and fare expenses, for that very little profit. I believe it is even a service to others, when a few items are made available wc they'd be needing or searching for outside anyway. In church, some people also fetch and bring back children from a nearby community, who cannot come on their own, so they can hear the Word on sundays. But it is good we have organized host families to prepare a light snack after worship, so hungry youths and adults too, have something before going home.
 

love_comes_softly

Well-known member
Feb 13, 2019
768
822
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#36
Hi lovecomes,
Was reading the thread and wanted to comment on a post or 2, but after reading ur reply, i thought abt the guest speaker offering his book. I cannot read his tone from ur post, but from my pov, he was inviting to see his book. Neither do i know (how famous he is and) how his book(s) are selling, but as an aspiring writer=)), i do not find anything wrong with him telling abt the book. Maybe there really is something he's written that he has said better or more than he can tell in a few mins. talking face to face. I dont know if he was thinking of profit when he promoted his book, but if i had such opportunity to mention the news, love and truth of the Lord in something i wrote, i could do the same=).

To many who are well off or at least comfortably blessed materially, it is easier to say that selling something in church may not seem 'right,' but in a smaller church as ours, we allow those who have something to offer, to bring and tell others in church what they have, whether pickled stuff, local rice cakes, etc.

Our ptr does not want the buying and selling predominantly advertized to outsiders, but for some members who really are striving but havent the means (cant even put up their own shop), i am glad they have the chance to see other brethren who they otherwise would not see outside sunday worship... unless they personally visit their homes or offices, wc means extra time and fare expenses, for that very little profit. I believe it is even a service to others, when a few items are made available wc they'd be needing or searching for outside anyway. In church, some people also fetch and bring back children from a nearby community, who cannot come on their own, so they can hear the Word on sundays. But it is good we have organized host families to prepare a light snack after worship, so hungry youths and adults too, have something before going home.

I completely agree with and understand what you've shared. That's why it is important that we don't put God in a box because there is a time and a place for everything. I believe there are places that the Lord may have them promoting goods or services, but I also believe it has everything to do with the heart of the people and the purpose of doing so. I don't believe it's ok everywhere.

In my situation, I felt deeply unsettled and I trust that the Lord was showing me something that we need to be aware of. We need to be careful of not promoting ourselves over God.

I believe as a teacher of the word, this particularly person, should have just shared with the lady who was asking. What if she couldn't pay for the book? What if she couldn't read? Why hold back God's love and truth? ~ That's kinda where I was coming from when I shared the story. It's something to be cautious of.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#37
If any of us wore a ballcap and or brought a mocha to traffic court the judge would promptly scold and
reprimand us. How then do we walk into the sanctuary wearing ballcaps and sipping coffee?

Makes me sick.
Yes Eli, I am with you on that. I am a generation ahead of you so my standards are probably even more formal than yours. I won't even wear jeans or sneakers into a sanctuary. I feel I should wear my best, as I think of church as presenting myself to the Lord.

Which we are actually: Matt. 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

These days you are apt to even find the pastor wearing jeans. I saw this at the last Assembly of God I attended. Don't get me started on some people with ball caps that they will not remove unless forced to. Our Western societies are losing their respect for others.

Love is caring what others think of how you present yourself and act. Matt. 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax [grow] cold."

blue-smiley-feeling-sad.gif
 

Brandon123

Active member
May 15, 2019
163
91
28
#38
Hmm.

Between the burnt coffee and the ungodly prices, I'm about half a flame away from declaring Starbucks to be the "Work of the Devil." :devilish:
Being a missionary, I know full well the struggles of missions. I think any church worth its oats will have an outreach ministry to help the poor. If we see how God set up the temples and refuge cities for ancient Israel, we will notice the poor always must be provided for.

SS described an isolationist church and its inherent problems. God does not bless them because they separate themselves from the community. If they took those outside donations and helped the downtrodden around them, they would fair a lot better. Churches ran by blacks in black dominate communities seem to have a better handle on this. Working with them I have found if you approach the church leaders with a problem, they would try to help in some way.

That mindset, of helping the poor, will also exclude any megachurch of having too much money. All they would have to do is get their minds off building a bigger church and put it into poverty outreach. The solution is also self adjusting. If you take in more money than the poor in you community needs, just expand you community. Taking the whole world into consideration, you will always have more poor people than money.

like Rod stated above, we Americans have gotten too fat and lazy. We build these fancy homes and keep them even after our children move out.
I agree Our preoccupation should be helping the poor and disadvantaged in our communities....my community is one of the wealthiest in the country per capita and it makes me furious to see homeless people here...we have so many churches here who rake in money but there are still these people wandering through town ...I feel that there’s no excuse for this ... especially here..I’m 2 miles from the school that Billy Graham graduated from...there’s money to no end and a church on every corner...our system here is set up so that ..if you make it to the designated shelter you will eat but forget about a shower ...probably not going to happen...when you wake up in the morning your out on the street again and have to spend most of your day getting to the next designated site..so forget about a job .. you can’t work if you only get to shower once a week if that..and have no transportation there.. so to get out of that system it takes quite literally a miracle.....and I feel that the only ones making things happen for the disadvantaged are people who have places to live but are working poor.....almost always brothers and sisters in Christ.. please don’t give your money to big ministries!! Buy someone a meal ... buy them socks or underwear...offer to drive them to the shelter...they are the ones who need your time and money the most...
 

Brandon123

Active member
May 15, 2019
163
91
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#39
I think it's important not to put God in a box. It's very possible that the Lord would have people start businesses, have sales in churches for various reasons, BUT for me it just feels wrong. It may not be, but it's kinda unsettling.
I agree .. I work hard and make very little...so making a book purchase is kind of a big deal...I’ve looked into things that I’ve had questions about over and over and often times I’ve run into resources that I thought would be a real help for me in my walk but found that I had to buy the book...buying books at the rate that they are sold within bounds of the church could be a full time job in itself...
It reminds me of this situation:
We've had a guess speaker visit our church several times throughout the years and we've grown to respect the work the Lord is doing in his life and we are thankful that he comes to share with us. BUT the last time he visited, one of the ladies asked him to share more about something the Lord had shown him (he touched on it during our service) and his reply was, "You should read it in my book" and he gave her the title.

I was shocked, maybe I shouldn't have been, but it feels wrong to me that someone seeking the Lord, would be directed to buy someone's book. I feel like the news, love, truth of the Lord should be shared freely, which makes me think anything for profit seems wrong. Fundraising for things the Lord would have you do, seems more appropriate, when the Lord leads.
I completely agree with and understand what you've shared. That's why it is important that we don't put God in a box because there is a time and a place for everything. I believe there are places that the Lord may have them promoting goods or services, but I also believe it has everything to do with the heart of the people and the purpose of doing so. I don't believe it's ok everywhere.

In my situation, I felt deeply unsettled and I trust that the Lord was showing me something that we need to be aware of. We need to be careful of not promoting ourselves over God.

I believe as a teacher of the word, this particularly person, should have just shared with the lady who was asking. What if she couldn't pay for the book? What if she couldn't read? Why hold back God's love and truth? ~ That's kinda where I was coming from when I shared the story. It's something to be cautious of.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#40
I agree Our preoccupation should be helping the poor and disadvantaged in our communities....my community is one of the wealthiest in the country per capita and it makes me furious to see homeless people here...we have so many churches here who rake in money but there are still these people wandering through town ...I feel that there’s no excuse for this ... especially here..I’m 2 miles from the school that Billy Graham graduated from...there’s money to no end and a church on every corner...our system here is set up so that ..if you make it to the designated shelter you will eat but forget about a shower ...probably not going to happen...when you wake up in the morning your out on the street again and have to spend most of your day getting to the next designated site..so forget about a job .. you can’t work if you only get to shower once a week if that..and have no transportation there.. so to get out of that system it takes quite literally a miracle.....and I feel that the only ones making things happen for the disadvantaged are people who have places to live but are working poor.....almost always brothers and sisters in Christ.. please don’t give your money to big ministries!! Buy someone a meal ... buy them socks or underwear...offer to drive them to the shelter...they are the ones who need your time and money the most...
I am not sure where you live Brandon, but many homeless people are mentally ill. In the '50s and '60s they emptied the asylums and made them fend for themselves. I know not all are, I was homeless a couple of times also so I know their plight. The Salvation Army helps a lot of people off the streets. I would give to them in a minute.

I agree .. I work hard and make very little...so making a book purchase is kind of a big deal...I’ve looked into things that I’ve had questions about over and over and often times I’ve run into resources that I thought would be a real help for me in my walk but found that I had to buy the book...buying books at the rate that they are sold within bounds of the church could be a full time job in itself...
It reminds me of this situation:
We've had a guess speaker visit our church several times throughout the years and we've grown to respect the work the Lord is doing in his life and we are thankful that he comes to share with us. BUT the last time he visited, one of the ladies asked him to share more about something the Lord had shown him (he touched on it during our service) and his reply was, "You should read it in my book" and he gave her the title.

I was shocked, maybe I shouldn't have been, but it feels wrong to me that someone seeking the Lord, would be directed to buy someone's book. I feel like the news, love, truth of the Lord should be shared freely, which makes me think anything for profit seems wrong. Fundraising for things the Lord would have you do, seems more appropriate, when the Lord leads.
I wrote a couple of books on Christianity. The publisher helped me through the edits and design but I kept the copyright privilege. **edited**
 
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