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mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
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#61
RSV and ESV are very recent translations off the Bible where pain and anguish are used in Jn. 16.21-22.
But records just prior to Christ's time reveal that a birth at this time in history generally took only 2-3 hrs, so we can be certain that Christ is not speaking of ‘'sorrow' of a prolonged, painful delivery.
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
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#62
Perhaps these can be viewed as just notes from an old notebook, not correctly formatted for itals, etc. for there is no time to do all. I simply got the gist from what i understood, in fact leaving out lots. i understand this was started in the singles forum but hope that's alright...prenatal care and maternity care are free in sweden (and more countries now i believe) where they have training in natural childbirth, where h.s. girls also receive instruction on these.

18 Theology
It is said that etsev in Gen.3.16, 17 refers primarily to emotions.
Etsev is also translated as ‘toil’ in Prov. 5.10, 10.22, Is. 58.3.

To be consistent, it should also be translated as ‘toil’ in 1 Chron. 4.9.

There is a verse in the NT where the AV adds ‘pain’, although it does not appear in the Greek-- Rom. 8.22 where the Gk simply says:

The whole creation groans in labor together (sunadino) until now.

It is worthy to note that ‘as a woman giving birth,’ wc appears 15x in our English translations of the OT, appears only 9x in the Septuagint. This simile occurs only once in the OT outside the prophetical literature, in Ps. 48.6, where it tells the king’s ‘laboring (chul) as a woman giving birth (yalad).’ This is a comparison of the effort in rowing to the effort in giving birth… the picture is like that of Mk. 6.48 (Phillips) where the disciples are ‘straining at the oars.’

In Isa. 42.14, rather than having the Lord say, ‘… now will I cry (paah) like a travailing (yalad) woman,’ as the AV reads, the Septuagint authors render this verse as ‘I have been as patient (kartereo) as a woman giving birth (tikto).
Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Is. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, etc.

To understand how English renderings can differ so much from the Septuagint, one must realize that our English and European translators of the OT are based primarily on the Heb.masoretic text wc earliest extant ms dates back only to AD 895…the importance of the Septuagint, with its happier renderings of childbirth passages, can hardly be overestimated. It was the only OT widely used by the early Church throughout the Gr.speaking world til the Latin vulgate appeared in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] and 5[SUP]th[/SUP] century AD.

…the really surprising thing is that it is the translators of the newer revisions of the last half century who have been the chief offenders…in their attempt to break away from the awkward literary training and use of familiar english words they have unwittingly ‘read into’ the text the concept of childbirth pain in many places where it is not in the original languages…

As a matter of fact, many of us are guilty of carelessly ‘reading into’ the text our own concepts of childbirth pain [and many other things].

19 Contemporary Obstetric Practices
Because the concept of pain as a normal accompaniment of labor and birth is so deeply embedded in the minds of many doctors, they have dismissed as ‘irrational’ statements and evidences from women who have experienced happy childbirths.

It is a common misconception that the natural childbirth patient is a ‘stoic,’ while the orthodox obstetric patient is relieved of her pain by means of drugs. The opposite is true. The natural childbirth patient because she knows how to prevent pain from occurring by relaxation and proper breathing, does not suffer while the untrained orthodox patient bec.she is tense does not feel severe pain even under sedation…Drugs cause one to lose self-control, so what 1 does remember often assumes an embarrassing nightmarish quality.

… an intensely disliked experience is the irritated soreness of perineal tissue after childbirth due to an episiotomy and repair. The orthodox physician performs the episiotomy nearly 100% of the time…and there is evidence that it is not really necessary.

But while the enema and episiotomy, used routinely (in the US) for a woman in childbirth are troublesome there is a really cruel procedure in obstetrics. This is the practice of strapping a woman down totally flat on her back.. this has no justification whatever for a conscious, cooperative woman.

This obstetric custom of strapping a laboring woman in an inflexible position is inexcusable…this position makes labor difficult and exhausting, esp for th primipara. Many have not realized that the severe backache and fatigue that trouble them after childbirth was due to their having abused their back muscles by arching their backs while pushing—the only way u can push when ur pinned flat on ur back…

The use of this dorsal position for delivering a child was first popularized in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century by Mauriceau, a French physician. He found that placing the woman in this position made the birth so much easier for the doctor!


Hope these be a blessing to mothers to be, and others.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
14,940
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#63
Mar09, I'm curious.

Why do you have a complete fixation on methods of childbirth both here and in other threads?

I'm just genuinely curious, as I've seen several of your posts and they all talk about the same thing.

Why... ? It almost sounds like some kind of advertisement... ?
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
1,259
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#64
Its not a complete fixation. Its only 2 threads also, for i mentioned that in passing in another thread. I simply 'finished' (is that the word) the idea because if i stopped after the 3rd or 4th post, that would seem weirder (hanging), if it isnt weird already to some. Think of it what u will, it was meant to share other Heb.and Gk. studies on a matter that concerns half the world. And which other women would not have known and practiced if others have not done the studying for them beforehand. I am only thnakful for that. Ad? I am not a salesman, perhaps just not very good communicator, but i tried.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
14,940
4,580
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#65
Its not a complete fixation. Its only 2 threads also, for i mentioned that in passing in another thread. I simply 'finished' (is that the word) the idea because if i stopped after the 3rd or 4th post, that would seem weirder (hanging), if it isnt weird already to some. Think of it what u will, it was meant to share other Heb.and Gk. studies on a matter that concerns half the world. And which other women would not have known and practiced if others have not done the studying for them beforehand. I am only thnakful for that. Ad? I am not a salesman, perhaps just not very good communicator, but i tried.
Yes, I read your other posts as well.

I didn't meant it as a criticism and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

I had just wondered what the reason and purpose was behind the post. Thank you for taking the time to explain.
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
1,259
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#67
no problem, seoul... i read the op before and thought that was one not commonly discussed thing you asked about. I am just not able to use smilies as often as others perhaps do, and text as u know can be so flat.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
14,940
4,580
113
#68
no problem, seoul... i read the op before and thought that was one not commonly discussed thing you asked about. I am just not able to use smilies as often as others perhaps do, and text as u know can be so flat.
I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to explain, Mar.

I was just really confused at first and I apologize in that there are probably some cultural/language differences I missed as well.

Thanks for joining us here and we hope to see more of you. :)
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
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#69
Thanks. Btw, I missed to say That's all folks... unless someone had something else to share about God's goodness in childbirth experiences... and the original languages.
 
Feb 20, 2016
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#70
The moon has no light of her own, she is witness to the sun's light.


Psalm 89

35Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—and I will not lie to David—36that his line will continue foreverand his throne endure before me like the sun;37it will be established forever like the moon,the faithful witness in the sky.”
 
Feb 20, 2016
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#71
Mind your own business.

1 Thessalonians 4:11 Make it
your goal to live a quiet life, minding your own business and working with your hands, just as we instructed you before.


 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#72
The people who sat in darkness have seen a great Light.
And for those who sat in the region and shadow of death, Light has dawned.


That Word is so great its in the Bible twice: Isaiah 9:2 and Matthew 4:16 :cool:
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
1,259
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#73
A commentary/teaching on verse 8 of Prov.3 is a new gem for me:
Proverbs 3:8

It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Spiritual and physical health and vitality are up to you! They are based on the choice of the previous proverb (Pr 3:7). You can have God’s blessings on body and spirit by rejecting your own ideas, fearing the Lord, and turning from sin. This important choice is the primary lesson of Proverbs – obtaining God’s best for your life by choosing His wisdom. If you neglect or reject His offer, you are committing certain suicide (Pr 8:36)!

The pronoun “it” refers precisely to what went before (Pr 3:7). Solomon wrote, “Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.” The combined choice of rejecting self-confidence, reverently trusting and obeying God, and hating sin is the condition for these promised blessings. Each phrase of the condition contains an imperative verb, indicating clearly that it requires your action. What holds you back?

Navel and bones are synecdoche for your body. The Oxford English Dictionary defines synecdoche, “A figure by which a more comprehensive term is used for a less comprehensive or vice versa; as whole for part or part for whole; genus for species or species for genus, etc.” Navel and bones, bodily parts, are substituted for the whole body. Consider, “Count heads,” “All hands on deck,” or “Nice wheels.” All are synecdoche.

You depended entirely on your navel for nine months, when vital nourishment passed to you from your mother through the umbilical cord. And the vitality of your bones continues to depend on nourishment from your marrow (Job 21:24). These figures of speech describe the blessing and prosperity from fully following the Lord. A good and happy life is dependent on submission and obedience to the will of God (Pr 4:22; 14:30).

from
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/proverbs/commentaries/03_08.php
 

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2009
24,574
4,262
113
#74
Proverbs 21:19 (New Living Translation)
It is better to live alone in the desert than with a crabby, complaining wife.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,937
113
#75
"O God, from my youth you have taught me,
and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds.
18 So even to old age and gray hairs,
O God, do not forsake me,
until I proclaim your might to another generation,
your power to all those to come." Psalm 71:17-18


Here is a verse some of you might be too young to relate to. But it inspired me to trust that God wasn't finished with me! Then God called me to Seminary, and ministry, proving that gray hair is not a barrier to serving God!
 
S

skylove7

Guest
#76
Thank you Angela!
I love you so much! lol
 
S

sealabeag

Guest
#77
Jonah is one of my favourite Biblical characters, he's just so cantankerous! Love him. There is one part of Jonah that really gives me a new perspective on faith, though - Jonah thanked God for saving him from the belly of the whale whilst he was still in there! Pre-emptive faith!

Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish,2 saying,
“I called to the Lord, out of my distress,
and he answered me;
out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
and thou didst hear my voice.
3 For thou didst cast me into the deep,
into the heart of the seas,
and the flood was round about me;
all thy waves and thy billows
passed over me.
4 Then I said, ‘I am cast out
from thy presence;
how shall I again look
upon thy holy temple?’
5 The waters closed in over me,
the deep was round about me;
weeds were wrapped about my head
6 at the roots of the mountains.
I went down to the land
whose bars closed upon me for ever;
yet thou didst bring up my life from the Pit,
O Lord my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me,
I remembered the Lord;
and my prayer came to thee,
into thy holy temple.
8 Those who pay regard to vain idols
forsake their true loyalty.
9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving
will sacrifice to thee;
what I have vowed I will pay.
Deliverance belongs to the Lord!”


10 And the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.