Talking with Jesus

[seekingthemindofChrist]

Alright. I understand how it looks like I am in left field. I know that Christianity teaches that Paul was an apostle called by Jesus and that we can benefit from his teachings. Maybe you can answer a few questions I have about Paul, genuinely and honestly, as I try to accept everything he said in the Bible.

I am extremely strapped for time at the moment, but I will quickly answer two of your questions, even though they were not posed to me.

(4) Why does Paul, in all of his writings, including the book of Hebrews, NEVER ONCE state that Jesus was entirely without sin?

2 Corinthians 5:21

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

(5) Why does Paul state that Jesus's afflictions are lacking (in Colossians 1:24)?

Colossians 1:24

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:"

Simply put, Paul spoke of filling up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ because Christians are the body of Christ, whereas Christ is the head of the body, and every time that a Christian is afflicted, it is Christ's body which is being afflicted.

Did not Jesus constantly warn his disciples that they would be persecuted and suffer many things for his name's sake?

More in direct regard to your question, this is what Jesus said in relation to Saul/Paul:

Acts 9:10-16

"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Paul's sufferings or afflictions were in direct fulfillment of what Jesus had decreed in relation to him suffering many things for his (Christ's) name's sake, so Paul's words are by no means a contradiction of anything that Jesus ever said.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

@ThyKingdomComeSoon

Why do my biblically accurate answers make you sad?

Does biblical truth sadden you?

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

(8) Why did Paul claim that God will judge us by "my" (Paul's) gospel?

Because he received his gospel directly from Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:11-12

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Furthermore, Paul's gospel is the same gospel that God preached to Abraham.

Galatians 3:8

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How/When/Where did God preach before the gospel unto Abraham?

In precisely the way or manner that Paul went on to accurately describe.

Galatians 3:16-17

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."|

Jesus Christ is the singular seed of Abraham. With this understanding, every time that we read of a promise being made to Abraham's seed in scripture, those promises were actually being made to Jesus Christ who is the seed of Abraham, and those promises are a very real part of the gospel or of the covenant which was constantly being confirmed of God in Christ. Not only is Jesus the seed of Abraham, but, again, as Paul went on to accurately describe, so are those who truly belong to Christ the seed of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Further still, Paul's gospel is the same exact gospel that Moses preached to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

Romans 10:6-10

"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Seeing how you have already stated that you believe that Paul authored the epistle to the Hebrews, we also have this to consider:

Hebrews 4:2

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Contextually, the "them" to whom the gospel was preached are the children of Israel in the time of Moses.

With these biblical truths in mind, no matter how much they may sadden some, Paul's gospel was not only the gospel which he received directly from Jesus Christ, but it was/is the same gospel that God preached to Abraham, and that Moses preached to the children of Israel.

 

[Lynx]

I am extremely strapped for time at the moment, but I will quickly answer two of your questions, even though they were not posed to me.
2 Corinthians 5:21

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Colossians 1:24

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:"

Simply put, Paul spoke of filling up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ because Christians are the body of Christ, whereas Christ is the head of the body, and every time that a Christian is afflicted, it is Christ's body which is being afflicted.

Did not Jesus constantly warn his disciples that they would be persecuted and suffer many things for his name's sake?

More in direct regard to your question, this is what Jesus said in relation to Saul/Paul:

Acts 9:10-16

"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Paul's sufferings or afflictions were in direct fulfillment of what Jesus had decreed in relation to him suffering many things for his (Christ's) name's sake, so Paul's words are by no means a contradiction of anything that Jesus ever said.

I'm making a bet with myself about the response your post gets. I'll let you know what the bet is when I find out whether I won or lost.

... Or whether I lost or won. When I make a bet with myself I win and lose both. But I'll let you know what the bet is when I find out the outcome.

 

[notmyown]

Why does Paul, in all of his writings, including the book of Hebrews,

what makes you think Paul authored Hebrews? i concede many people believe it, but the Bible doesn't specifically say so.

side note: don't the anti-Pauline types generally show up in the BDF?

 

[Lynx]

what makes you think Paul authored Hebrews? i concede many people believe it, but the Bible doesn't specifically say so.

side note: don't the anti-Pauline types generally show up in the BDF?

Yeah, usually. Occasionally we get some seepage from the sewer pipes going to BDF. Maintenance gonna have to replace the O ring seals again.

 

[Lynx]

Side note of my own: Somebody sure woke up crabby today. Not posting anything, but sure is handing out the negative reactions. Almost as if he thinks it makes a difference.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

I honestly do not have the time, but I will sacrificially make the time to answer this one:

(10) Can you explain why he says, "Though we have known Jesus in the flesh, we no longer know Him this way," when John warns us about spirits that deny Jesus Christ come in the flesh?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I can accurately explain it.

Here is what Paul said, in context:

2 Corinthians 5:12-16

"For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

In context, which is always of utmost importance, Paul's stated objective in what he was about to say was to equip his Corinthians hearers with "somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart."

Well, who are these people?

You need to understand the timeframe during which Paul was writing. The people had been under the Mosaic law or the old covenant for approximately 1500 years, and this was a time of great transition from the old covenant to the new covenant which had been foretold of. Under the old covenant, there was a circumcision in the foreskin of one's flesh, and under the new covenant, we need to have a circumcision in the heart or spirit. With such being the case, Paul constantly wrote of a conflict between the flesh and spirit, and although multitudes of professing Christians have been duped into believing that Paul was talking about some alleged dual nature that Christians have, this is not what Paul was speaking about at all. In other words, Paul consistently used certain different words interchangeably to describe life under the old covenant, and some of those words are "law," "flesh (as in an outward fleshly circumcision)," "bondage (because the law left one in bondage to sin)," and "works."

Here, when Paul spoke about "after the flesh," he was alluding not only to those "which glory in appearance, and not in heart," or to those who trusted in the law with its accompanying fleshly circumcision, but he was also referring to how people knew Christ "after the flesh," or to how they recognized him under the old covenant.

This same Paul, in this same epistle, went on to say this:

2 Corinthians 11:12-23

"But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft."

Here, Paul was speaking about the same exact people "which glory in appearance, and not in heart" (2 Corinthians 5:12), or about those who "glory after the flesh."

Well, who were these people?

Here is what we know about them:

1. They were false apostles or deceitful workers who had transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2. They were ministers of Satan.
3. They gloried "after the flesh,", which is the real issue behind your question.
4. They were bringing the people into bondage.
5. They were Hebrews.
6. They were Israelites.
7. Naturally speaking, but certainly not spiritually speaking, the were the seed of Abraham.

If you understand anything at all about the timeframe in which Paul was writing, and if you understand anything at all about Paul's primary combatants, then you will easily recognize that these people who "gloried after the flesh" were the Judaizers of Paul's day who sought to bring the people back into bondage by seeking to subject them again to the law of Moses and its accompanying circumcision in or "after the flesh."

Again, in context, this is what Paul was talking about when he said the following:

2 Corinthians 5:12-16

"For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

As I rightly said earlier, here, Paul was seeking to equip his Corinthians hearers with "somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart" or with something to answer the Judaizers of his day who "gloried after the flesh" in that they sought to bring the Corinthians back into bondage under the Mosaic law with its accompanying circumcision in the foreskin of one's flesh.

With this understanding, Paul went on to say:

"Henceforth," or from hereon, "know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

In other words, our relationships with one another as Christians are not based "after the flesh" or after the Mosaic law, neither is our relationship with Christ any longer based upon the same. The law once foreshadowed Christ, and people knew him that way, but now that the body has come, we no longer need the shadows or foreshadowings.

This is what Paul was saying, and by no means was he denying that Christ had come in the flesh.

In fact, Paul regularly acknowledged in his epistles that Christ had come in bodily form.

Colossians 2:9

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Colossians 2:16-17

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

(9) Why does Paul proclaim curses upon people who hate Jesus? "Anathema maranatha!" Anathema means evil chaos, and maranatha means come, so it is like he is saying, come evil chaos. Why would ANY Christian call upon evil?

Have you never read the following?

Matthew 25:41

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Are not those on Christ's left hand cursed?

What is your beef with Paul?

Why do you seek to misrepresent him and his words?

Here is the true heart of Paul in relation to being accursed:

Romans 9:1-5

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

While saying the truth in Christ, while lying not, and while his conscience was bearing him witness in the Holy Ghost, Paul said that he wished that he was accursed that others might be saved.

Leave Paul alone.

Whether you realize it or not, you are in dangerous waters in the Lord's eyes by seeking to defame one of his chosen apostles.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

(6) Why does Paul constantly command us to remember him in his sufferings, but not to remember Jesus's sufferings?

1 Corinthians 11:23-26

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

You said that you believe Paul authored the epistle to the Hebrews, right?

Have you never read this?

Hebrews 13:12-13

"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach."

That sounds like a reminder of Jesus' sufferings to me.

May I ask you a question?

Do you understand the difference between a baseless allegation disguised as a question and a genuine question?

 

[BrianMeir]

This morning, I was struggling with some relationships very close to me. I was complaining about these people to the Lord, realizing that complaining about them so much isn't ideal, although I can't escape these people or my obligation to them. Then I asked the Lord, what do you have to say? And he answered me and said, "Love never fails." I heard him tell me that.

 

[BrianMeir]

Hi guys, last night I posted a brief account of how the Lord answered me in prayer, what he said to me, but it got pushed back to the next page by all the replies arguing about the Bible. I keep trying to say that I made this thread so we could talk about talking with Jesus. Please please please can we share our mutual experiences talking with the Lord, and what he is presently telling us, and how we are growing? I apologize for criticizing Paul. It created so much controversy. Please forgive me. Can we please try to focus on our present relationships with Jesus together? FYI, I prayed to him again this morning and made a post about that, so now I have shared twice how he answered my prayers, one last night, and one this morning.

 

[Lanolin]

Jesus has always been patient with me
family situations are difficult when no other family members are christians thats for sure, but remember Jesus own family and town didnt believe him, though he was still obligated to them.

He got John to look after Mary after he left. So he made arrangements for her care. I note that Jesus own brothers and sisters did not or were not willing to have this responsibilty.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

@ThyKingdomComeSoon

Why do my biblically accurate answers make you sad?

Does biblical truth sadden you?

What saddens me and is a cause for arguments is there there are 2 gospels, Paul's calling it his own and the one Jesus preached. They are different and cannot be reconciled, I have tried and they are different. people say it is the same but it is not. Different people are allowed to have an opinion just like you. it is why it is written that Paul is difficult to understand. I hope you agree that people can have different opinions based on scriptures.

Blessings.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Hi guys, last night I posted a brief account of how the Lord answered me in prayer, what he said to me, but it got pushed back to the next page by all the replies arguing about the Bible. I keep trying to say that I made this thread so we could talk about talking with Jesus. Please please please can we share our mutual experiences talking with the Lord, and what he is presently telling us, and how we are growing? I apologize for criticizing Paul. It created so much controversy. Please forgive me. Can we please try to focus on our present relationships with Jesus together? FYI, I prayed to him again this morning and made a post about that, so now I have shared twice how he answered my prayers, one last night, and one this morning.

Hello Brian you are not the only one who thinks differently about Paul some of the points you mentioned ( but not all) were good questions to ask.

About Jesus, I fell in love with GOD when I started to read Matthew, John, Like and Mark and I discovered the son of GOD and his words, I know then I wanted to follow him forever. I was not used in praying then but did spend a lot of time reading the bible and always ( still today ) tried to improve myself, it is a constant travail to do so. the good thing about this was I was always thinking of God and his commandments, about loving one another. A long tome ago, I was about 19 then, One morning very early I woke up and there was a demon next to me about 6 feet away, I was always pleagued as a child this damned thing was trying to kill me ( for the second time) , well Jesus did appear then, raised his hand and that thing was gone, he smiled at me and vanished, I saw him clearly for about 1 minute, It was a vision he was an ordinary man, brown hair shoulder length, beard and moustache same colour medium brown, brown eyes , very average looking, no particular traits, was wearing a white gown with a thin golden belt about mid chest ( weird I know ) he had golden embroidied patterns on his sleeves. He was not in the room in the physical realm but it was like I could see behind him a beautiful paysage all lush with trees in the background. I still have this image in my mind.

As he asked us in his instructions, I pray to the Holy Father not Jesus. However I always think of Jesus for a brief moment when I do so because of the visitation I had it is in my mind. I do spead to him and think about him all the time it is hard to do to keep a constant attention on the lord but now it had become easy.

I do have some gifts that came a bit later, A gift of knowledge i think it can be called. I know by instinct things a person does not normally know, I did not use this gift for the longest time because I thought I could deduce these things, however, as an example, when I visited New york a few years before the twin towers fell, I was a feet away from the towers and I saw the one in front of me crumble to dust leaving behind a few spikes of the external metal structure standing, I was floored when I saw a picture in the news a few days after the exact same image I saw in my mind, then I knew for certain it was a gift and I was meant to use it.

To me constant attention on the lord, loving one another and following Jesus ways is my constant prayer, I have never heard his words but I know he is with me watching... In any case His words are in the first 4 books of the N.T. all we need to do to get eternal life is fully and clearly described in writing.

I apologise for my poor writing skills, I do not have this gift however.

Blessings

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

What saddens me and is a cause for arguments is there there are 2 gospels, Paul's calling it his own and the one Jesus preached. They are different and cannot be reconciled, I have tried and they are different. people say it is the same but it is not. Different people are allowed to have an opinion just like you. it is why it is written that Paul is difficult to understand. I hope you agree that people can have different opinions based on scriptures.

Blessings.

They are easily reconcilable.

 

[Magenta]

(4) Why does Paul, in all of his writings, including the book of Hebrews, NEVER ONCE state that Jesus was entirely without sin?

2 Corinthians 5:21~ "God made Him Who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

 

[Lynx]

Hi guys, last night I posted a brief account of how the Lord answered me in prayer, what he said to me, but it got pushed back to the next page by all the replies arguing about the Bible. I keep trying to say that I made this thread so we could talk about talking with Jesus. Please please please can we share our mutual experiences talking with the Lord, and what he is presently telling us, and how we are growing? I apologize for criticizing Paul. It created so much controversy. Please forgive me. Can we please try to focus on our present relationships with Jesus together? FYI, I prayed to him again this morning and made a post about that, so now I have shared twice how he answered my prayers, one last night, and one this morning.

Huh... I lost the bet with myself. That's twice in 2 days I was wrong about somebody.

I was betting with myself that you would come back strong with arguments against paul. Personally I'm glad I was wrong.

 

[BrianMeir]

Hey guys. Mr. ThyKingdom, thank you for posting your experiential anecdote. I really appreciate it. This is closer to what I created this thread for. To be most precise, I have really been trying to create an interactive discussion between several Christians online and Jesus in a present way. I gave a couple examples by posting last night and this morning my prayers to him and his response to me. I am hoping others do the same, and maybe we can get close enough to each other to join in each other's prayers, and hear Jesus speak to us for others, and also comment on what Jesus is telling each other, etc. Since you get words of knowledge, maybe you can join in a present discussion for some of our specific needs, and we can also minister to you. I want to create discussion that includes Jesus, invites Jesus, and would definitely not make him ashamed to be a part of. Finally, I was pleased to read your post backing me up about Paul for selfish reasons, but I'd really rather quash that whole discussion, since it has become divisive and has hurt my agenda of approaching Jesus's face together. Thank you so much for joining us, and I really look forward to hearing more from you. Also, thank you for telling us what Jesus looked like when He revealed Himself to you when you were 19. I hope we can welcome Him enough to encourage Him to reveal Himself to us here in some way.