Talking with Jesus
- Thread starter BrianMeir
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The central revelation that Paul taught is that the church is the Body of Christ.
Also, Paul said that his ministry was to "complete the word of God".
He was the one that explained how everything in the OT led to the NT.
I believe this word from Jesus refers to Paul
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith to them, `Did ye understand all these?' They say to him, `Yes, sir.' 52 And he said to them, `Because of this every scribe having been discipled in regard to the reign of the heavens, is like to a man, a householder, who doth bring forth out of his treasure things new and old.'
Also, Paul said that his ministry was to "complete the word of God".
He was the one that explained how everything in the OT led to the NT.
I believe this word from Jesus refers to Paul
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith to them, `Did ye understand all these?' They say to him, `Yes, sir.' 52 And he said to them, `Because of this every scribe having been discipled in regard to the reign of the heavens, is like to a man, a householder, who doth bring forth out of his treasure things new and old.'
Thank you very much, ZNP. I found a nice pentacostal church within walking distance to my house where I used to live which met all your criteria. It had some really sincere and kind believers there. It had been around for a while and didn't have an online presence. I wish I still lived there so I could go to it. I would estimate that it had 200 people or so. I have also had good experiences in hispanic churches. I love finding sincere communities of people who are serious about Jesus.
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Yes sir, since you asked me nicely for my opinion, I respect that, and I will let you know what I think and hope it doesn't get too inflammatory. It seems to me that Paul had very harsh things to say about "people who try to achieve salvation by obedience to the law." I can't find that exact verse on my first try, but that is my paraphrase. I know it is specifically condemning people trying to live in obedience to the law. It seems to me that Jesus encouraged people to keep the "weightier matters of the law of justice and mercy and faith" and encouraged people to follow the Law. When the one elder Pharisee came to Jesus, Jesus asked him what the most important commandment was, and he said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself," to which Jesus replied and said, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." When the Rich young ruler asked Jesus how to get into heaven, Jesus's first response to him was to keep the commandments. Jesus also personally kept the law, and when he healed the leper he told him to present himself to the priests in the temple as outlined by Moses. Jesus never preached justification by faith. Justification by faith alone apart from the law was entirely Paul's idea. Jesus seemed to include faith and compassion and love for God and others within the law, while Paul explicitly said that the only use for the law is to point out our sin. Interestingly though, when Paul writes about behavior in Romans 1:18-2:5, he only writes negative things, as if to indicate that his understanding of the law was exclusively negative. I suspect that because Paul had been a Pharisee opposed to Jesus he never understood the true value of the law Jesus preached about in the first place, so when he converted he created a theology that entirely discarded the law as an instrument of walking close to God. Another point is that Jesus was a descendant of David, and David wrote extensively about his own virtue and integrity largely in keeping with the Law. Another thing is when Paul vilified the Jews of his day, he wasn't rejecting them on the basis of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, but on the basis of their adherence to the law. Paul is the single source of the idea that adhering to the Law implicitly denies Jesus. And I have a major problem with that. As Jesus said to the Pharisees before him, "You don't allow others to enter heaven and you don't enter it yourselves." I think if people want to draw near to God by obeying scriptural commandments, more power to them! As Jesus said, "if you had believed Moses you would recognize Me." It seems clear to me that Jesus was saying that true obedience to the Law brings you closer to Him, and the Pharisees (which Paul boasted about being the best of) drew people away from the true law and away from Him. There are many other things about Paul that I believe draw people away from Jesus, but his vehement rejection of obeying the law as a means of exercising faith is the fundamental one that concerns me. "Let no one call you teacher, for one is your teacher." -Jesus
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This statement, in the opening post, ought to have been a huge red flag to all of you.
I ask you all to seriously consider the following:
2 Peter 1:16-21
"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
Peter, James, and John not only saw Jesus transfigured right before their very eyes on the Mount of Transfiguration, but they also heard God's voice out of heaven, and saw Moses and Elijah. In spite of what they saw and heard, Peter said that we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto we do well to take heed, because no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
When somebody tells you that they want to talk about experiences with Jesus, while simultaneously making disparaging comments about the word of God, you can guarantee yourselves that danger is on the horizon.
Anyhow, carry on with your personal Jesuses.
As for me, I will stick with the Jesus of the Bible.
I ask you all to seriously consider the following:
2 Peter 1:16-21
"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
Peter, James, and John not only saw Jesus transfigured right before their very eyes on the Mount of Transfiguration, but they also heard God's voice out of heaven, and saw Moses and Elijah. In spite of what they saw and heard, Peter said that we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto we do well to take heed, because no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
When somebody tells you that they want to talk about experiences with Jesus, while simultaneously making disparaging comments about the word of God, you can guarantee yourselves that danger is on the horizon.
Anyhow, carry on with your personal Jesuses.
As for me, I will stick with the Jesus of the Bible.
I think this is the crux of the argument, so let's consider this point.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus was asked the way to the Father and He didn't say, "Keep the law". On the flip side He said that Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So then, according to the law how do you "come unto the father"?
What is this "new and living way" that Hebrews talks about, that is a fulfillment of the law, that aligns with what Jesus said about no one coming unto the Father but by me?
According to the law you can only come unto the Father on the day of atonement, and you can only enter the Holy of Holies if you are the High Priest and you have the atoning blood of the sacrifice. Jesus is telling us that His blood is that sacrifice, He is the High Priest, He is the one that opened the curtain to the Holy of Holies with His death. That is the fulfillment of the law. The blood of Bulls and goats only lasted for a year, and ever since Jesus crucifixion is no longer effective (rabbinical records prove this, after the crucifixion the day of Atonement never resulted in the proof that the sacrifice was accepted).
This is what Paul is telling us, salvation is being able to come unto the Father, there is no way without us receiving the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.
Paul never disparages good works, he always condemns the works of the flesh, but the biggest deceit was that you could be saved by your good works. There is only one way according to the law to be forgiven of sins and that is with the shedding of blood, and the law testifies that the only blood accepted by God to forgive your sins is the blood of Jesus. That is Paul's message and that is also Jesus message.
In conclusion, justification by faith alone is not Paul's idea, it is written in the law clear as day, and Jesus knew it, John the Baptist knew it, and that is why he told us that Jesus was the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus was asked the way to the Father and He didn't say, "Keep the law". On the flip side He said that Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So then, according to the law how do you "come unto the father"?
What is this "new and living way" that Hebrews talks about, that is a fulfillment of the law, that aligns with what Jesus said about no one coming unto the Father but by me?
According to the law you can only come unto the Father on the day of atonement, and you can only enter the Holy of Holies if you are the High Priest and you have the atoning blood of the sacrifice. Jesus is telling us that His blood is that sacrifice, He is the High Priest, He is the one that opened the curtain to the Holy of Holies with His death. That is the fulfillment of the law. The blood of Bulls and goats only lasted for a year, and ever since Jesus crucifixion is no longer effective (rabbinical records prove this, after the crucifixion the day of Atonement never resulted in the proof that the sacrifice was accepted).
This is what Paul is telling us, salvation is being able to come unto the Father, there is no way without us receiving the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.
Paul never disparages good works, he always condemns the works of the flesh, but the biggest deceit was that you could be saved by your good works. There is only one way according to the law to be forgiven of sins and that is with the shedding of blood, and the law testifies that the only blood accepted by God to forgive your sins is the blood of Jesus. That is Paul's message and that is also Jesus message.
In conclusion, justification by faith alone is not Paul's idea, it is written in the law clear as day, and Jesus knew it, John the Baptist knew it, and that is why he told us that Jesus was the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
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@BrianMeir its interesting to see that Paul bothers you so much and I agree with most of your points.You know who bothers me more? David !
He actually pushes me AWAY from God. So how do I handle this you might say? Well, I ignore David and trust Jesus.
He actually pushes me AWAY from God. So how do I handle this you might say? Well, I ignore David and trust Jesus.
Justification by faith alone
Galatians 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The context of this verse is not a debate about murder, or idolatry or adultery. The context is not about the ten commandments. The debate was that "judaizers" were telling Gentiles that yes, you can be saved, but first you must be circumcised.
The entire book of Galatians is a book concerning the attempt by some to make circumcision a prerequisite to salvation. Jesus dealt with the sabbath day and keeping the sabbath day in His ministry, Paul dealt with circumcision in his ministry, and Peter dealt with the rules about what foods are kosher in his ministry. These were the three pillars of the Jewish religion that separated Jews from Gentiles.
The reality of the Sabbath rest was fulfilled by Jesus when He was in the grave, that is the true Sabbath rest. Paul refers to this when he says "I have died to the law that I might live to Christ". The reality of certain foods being "unclean" was a picture of Gentiles being unclean and they were cleansed by the blood of Jesus and the work that He did on the cross. Peter was told "what God has cleansed do not call unclean".
Circumcision was a sign that Abraham had a covenant with God. It was a figure that God had dealt with his flesh and cut it off. That is what the cross did in reality. Paul tells us that this was a figure of the cross of Christ circumcising our heart and called the circumcision that the judaizers were pushing as "the concision".
The point is that we believe that we are saved by Jesus Christ and nothing else. If you require anything else plus Jesus to be saved that is condemned by the Bible and that is what cults do. The Judaizers were a cult. James was the leader of that cult (whether knowingly or as a useful idiot, it isn't clear). However, what is clear is that he repented of that and the book of James is the single clearest and best way on how to deal with a cult and how to help someone who is in a cult to come out of it.
One mistake that many make is to think that Jim Jones is your prototypical cult. Jim Jones is a brazen and in your face cult that influences far less than 1% of the people. However I would say that every person is influenced in some respect by cults prior to being saved.
NFL football fans are in a cult. Materialism is a cult. People who can name all the Kardashians are in a cult. Major label singers and song artists are cult leaders. Worshipping money is a cult. Look how easy it was to mesmerize a huge portion of the world during the pandemic? That is because they are in a cult and do what they are told without any thought. Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Buddhists, Moslems, that is all a cult. The Bible doesn't use the word cult. It talks about false prophets, false Christs (those who claim to have a special anointing) and says the whole world lies in the evil one and in darkness. The prosperity gospel is a perversion of the gospel and is a cult. Catholicism is a cult.
According to James the only pure religion takes care of widows and orphans and is unspotted by the world. Catholics definitely take care of widows and orphans, but they are also definitely spotted by the world. Just look carefully at the Vatican. Meanwhile Moonies try their best to be "unspotted by the world" yet 100% of their good works goes to build up the ministry of the cult leader, not to help widows and orphans.
People try to argue that they are not "religious" and yet look at how "Climate change" has become a religion. It is pagan religion.
Galatians 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The context of this verse is not a debate about murder, or idolatry or adultery. The context is not about the ten commandments. The debate was that "judaizers" were telling Gentiles that yes, you can be saved, but first you must be circumcised.
The entire book of Galatians is a book concerning the attempt by some to make circumcision a prerequisite to salvation. Jesus dealt with the sabbath day and keeping the sabbath day in His ministry, Paul dealt with circumcision in his ministry, and Peter dealt with the rules about what foods are kosher in his ministry. These were the three pillars of the Jewish religion that separated Jews from Gentiles.
The reality of the Sabbath rest was fulfilled by Jesus when He was in the grave, that is the true Sabbath rest. Paul refers to this when he says "I have died to the law that I might live to Christ". The reality of certain foods being "unclean" was a picture of Gentiles being unclean and they were cleansed by the blood of Jesus and the work that He did on the cross. Peter was told "what God has cleansed do not call unclean".
Circumcision was a sign that Abraham had a covenant with God. It was a figure that God had dealt with his flesh and cut it off. That is what the cross did in reality. Paul tells us that this was a figure of the cross of Christ circumcising our heart and called the circumcision that the judaizers were pushing as "the concision".
The point is that we believe that we are saved by Jesus Christ and nothing else. If you require anything else plus Jesus to be saved that is condemned by the Bible and that is what cults do. The Judaizers were a cult. James was the leader of that cult (whether knowingly or as a useful idiot, it isn't clear). However, what is clear is that he repented of that and the book of James is the single clearest and best way on how to deal with a cult and how to help someone who is in a cult to come out of it.
One mistake that many make is to think that Jim Jones is your prototypical cult. Jim Jones is a brazen and in your face cult that influences far less than 1% of the people. However I would say that every person is influenced in some respect by cults prior to being saved.
NFL football fans are in a cult. Materialism is a cult. People who can name all the Kardashians are in a cult. Major label singers and song artists are cult leaders. Worshipping money is a cult. Look how easy it was to mesmerize a huge portion of the world during the pandemic? That is because they are in a cult and do what they are told without any thought. Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Buddhists, Moslems, that is all a cult. The Bible doesn't use the word cult. It talks about false prophets, false Christs (those who claim to have a special anointing) and says the whole world lies in the evil one and in darkness. The prosperity gospel is a perversion of the gospel and is a cult. Catholicism is a cult.
According to James the only pure religion takes care of widows and orphans and is unspotted by the world. Catholics definitely take care of widows and orphans, but they are also definitely spotted by the world. Just look carefully at the Vatican. Meanwhile Moonies try their best to be "unspotted by the world" yet 100% of their good works goes to build up the ministry of the cult leader, not to help widows and orphans.
People try to argue that they are not "religious" and yet look at how "Climate change" has become a religion. It is pagan religion.
Sounds like " His peace that passes understanding" ?
That's interesting. I've never really thought of David in a negative light personally, but now that I think about it, I can definitely see how that is possible. He prayed a lot for vengeance. He also asserted his own virtuous character a lot, which kind of runs contrary to the idea of humbling oneself before God. Also, I privately hold the opinion that Saul got the short end of the stick in a lot of ways, like when Samuel, who was retired, and 3 days late, came into town and publicly overrode Saul's authority in front of all the people. By today's standards, we would never let a former leader take a present leader to town like that. Especially considering the fact that Saul was also considered a prophet in his own right. And since Samuel wrote the history, we have to take him at his word that it was God who rejected Saul. Did you know that Moses wrote that you should save the animals in the city you conquered for the purpose of sacrificing them, exactly as Saul tried to do in Samuel's absence? Today we would say, "Trust the written scriptures over what supposed prophets are telling you." If Saul had been given that advice, things could have turned out a lot differently. I mean, we are told by the author that Saul became large in his own eyes and David was a man after God's own heart, but isn't that kind of subjective? If we met Christians like Saul and David today, we would encourage them both, and tell them that Jesus loves them equally. Instead, in Samuel's story, God's favor is portrayed almost as with the luck of the draw. This actually had a very real and adverse effect on my own faith for years, as I kept hearing a voice call me, "Saul," and for many reasons I thought God had arbitrarily chosen to reject me.
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Jesus is the incarnated word of God. If you are reading a Psalm of David or one of the letters of Paul you are talking with Jesus. If you don't realize that then you are in darkness.
One of the ugliest deceits is by those who are so arrogant they go through the Bible picking and choosing which verses are "good" and which are "evil" or no good.
One of the ugliest deceits is by those who are so arrogant they go through the Bible picking and choosing which verses are "good" and which are "evil" or no good.
Indeed @BrianMeir and when i discuss the topic of David with several priests in my church they highlight the topic of Ego and that makes sense to me because i see a massive ego there which is the complete opposite of what Jesus says.
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