The Veto Concept
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Hi Gypsygirl.
I really don't like the fact that you have put me on the spot.
The discussion was meant to be open to your thoughts and not just something tailored for me.
However I decided to answer your question [coz you rock!] but I may not continue on in such a back and forth detailed interview because I have other commitments.
do you believe that a man has a greater level of responsibility as headship of a family/marriage?
1 Timothy 5:8 is quite clear that a man should provide for his household and if he doesn't, he could be worse than an infidel.
Well. In today's world, there are chances of a man losing his job and not being able to support his family... which in that case if his wife works, would not be a problem.
Likewise if a woman was pregnant and decided to take time off work, it would fall on the husband to provide for the family.
Is there a greater responsibility for men?
Maybe. I am unsure.
and do you believe that a husband has any leadership role in marriage/family?
Yes, of course.
As does the wife.
They are role models to their family.
last question : )
are you saying that you view the role of husband and wife as interchangeable/identical as far as responsibility, leadership, and authority?
I don't understand this question in totality.
The husband and wife are one. To me, each couple is different and their dynamics are different.
I have to add here one thing that I can think of - single parents.
Often times, a parent becomes everything to their child - both father and mother. (How the circumstance of single parenthood is arrived is irrelevant in this context.)
So yes, sometimes it falls on a woman to take all responsibilities including that of the man in raising her child and vice versa in case of a man.
I really don't like the fact that you have put me on the spot.
The discussion was meant to be open to your thoughts and not just something tailored for me.
However I decided to answer your question [coz you rock!] but I may not continue on in such a back and forth detailed interview because I have other commitments.
do you believe that a man has a greater level of responsibility as headship of a family/marriage?
1 Timothy 5:8 is quite clear that a man should provide for his household and if he doesn't, he could be worse than an infidel.
Well. In today's world, there are chances of a man losing his job and not being able to support his family... which in that case if his wife works, would not be a problem.
Likewise if a woman was pregnant and decided to take time off work, it would fall on the husband to provide for the family.
Is there a greater responsibility for men?
Maybe. I am unsure.
and do you believe that a husband has any leadership role in marriage/family?
Yes, of course.
As does the wife.
They are role models to their family.
last question : )
are you saying that you view the role of husband and wife as interchangeable/identical as far as responsibility, leadership, and authority?
I don't understand this question in totality.
The husband and wife are one. To me, each couple is different and their dynamics are different.
I have to add here one thing that I can think of - single parents.
Often times, a parent becomes everything to their child - both father and mother. (How the circumstance of single parenthood is arrived is irrelevant in this context.)
So yes, sometimes it falls on a woman to take all responsibilities including that of the man in raising her child and vice versa in case of a man.
because they're not obedient children of God.
according to Scripture , you're rebellious(wittingly or not, can't tell). that leads to and leaves you in confusion. (and blocks many of God's directions and God's blessings).
"stubborn" is if you resist God's Word continually.
see "total woman" and "total joy" by marabel* something if you want to see from Scripture the full picture.
Marabel Morgan (25 June 1937-) The Total Woman (1973), Total Joy (1983),
according to Scripture , you're rebellious(wittingly or not, can't tell). that leads to and leaves you in confusion. (and blocks many of God's directions and God's blessings).
"stubborn" is if you resist God's Word continually.
see "total woman" and "total joy" by marabel* something if you want to see from Scripture the full picture.
Marabel Morgan (25 June 1937-) The Total Woman (1973), Total Joy (1983),
Hi Gypsygirl.
I really don't like the fact that you have put me on the spot.
The discussion was meant to be open to your thoughts and not just something tailored for me.
However I decided to answer your question [coz you rock!] but I may not continue on in such a back and forth detailed interview because I have other commitments.
do you believe that a man has a greater level of responsibility as headship of a family/marriage?
1 Timothy 5:8 is quite clear that a man should provide for his household and if he doesn't, he could be worse than an infidel.
Well. In today's world, there are chances of a man losing his job and not being able to support his family... which in that case if his wife works, would not be a problem.
Likewise if a woman was pregnant and decided to take time off work, it would fall on the husband to provide for the family.
Is there a greater responsibility for men?
Maybe. I am unsure.
and do you believe that a husband has any leadership role in marriage/family?
Yes, of course.
As does the wife.
They are role models to their family.
last question : )
are you saying that you view the role of husband and wife as interchangeable/identical as far as responsibility, leadership, and authority?
I don't understand this question in totality.
The husband and wife are one. To me, each couple is different and their dynamics are different.
I have to add here one thing that I can think of - single parents.
Often times, a parent becomes everything to their child - both father and mother. (How the circumstance of single parenthood is arrived is irrelevant in this context.)
So yes, sometimes it falls on a woman to take all responsibilities including that of the man in raising her child and vice versa in case of a man.
I really don't like the fact that you have put me on the spot.
The discussion was meant to be open to your thoughts and not just something tailored for me.
However I decided to answer your question [coz you rock!] but I may not continue on in such a back and forth detailed interview because I have other commitments.
do you believe that a man has a greater level of responsibility as headship of a family/marriage?
1 Timothy 5:8 is quite clear that a man should provide for his household and if he doesn't, he could be worse than an infidel.
Well. In today's world, there are chances of a man losing his job and not being able to support his family... which in that case if his wife works, would not be a problem.
Likewise if a woman was pregnant and decided to take time off work, it would fall on the husband to provide for the family.
Is there a greater responsibility for men?
Maybe. I am unsure.
and do you believe that a husband has any leadership role in marriage/family?
Yes, of course.
As does the wife.
They are role models to their family.
last question : )
are you saying that you view the role of husband and wife as interchangeable/identical as far as responsibility, leadership, and authority?
I don't understand this question in totality.
The husband and wife are one. To me, each couple is different and their dynamics are different.
I have to add here one thing that I can think of - single parents.
Often times, a parent becomes everything to their child - both father and mother. (How the circumstance of single parenthood is arrived is irrelevant in this context.)
So yes, sometimes it falls on a woman to take all responsibilities including that of the man in raising her child and vice versa in case of a man.
you have written things in this thread that sound very much like an egaltarian household with interchangeable roles (for want of another word). on the other hand, i read something earlier than says you do distinguish between the roles. so i was asking questions that i thought would help me better understand that.
part of my curiousity is because i have a couple friends who have similar backgrounds as you, and it dawned on me yesterday that i had a very, VERY similar discussion with them (they are married christians). and i am wondering how much influence your culture may play here.
this is what i was thinking...sometimes what we say we believe isn't so simple when you break down the nuts and bolts of things. in the general language they sound one way, but on a point by point question, things are different because we associate labels with behavior, but sometimes our culture, age or even lexicon colors that actual meaning.
anyway, i appreciate your indulgence. i'm going to mull these answers in a very special way. with my eyes closed and in a mostly non-responsive state. : D
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Exactly.
This is why I said it would not be fruitful to discussion to figure out what I might be and then post. I do not fit into any such labels of egalitarianism or complementarianisn completely.
I appreciate your curiosity. Totally get that. I do hope though that whatever you post is what you feel and not what would seem best to me.
There are ways.
Not going to tell you because I am not particularly feeling René Descartes.
PS - God can direct the minds of kings. His sheep hear His voice.
EDIT : Going to take leave of this discussion everyone. Thanks for the replies. God bless.
Exactly.
This is why I said it would not be fruitful to discussion to figure out what I might be and then post. I do not fit into any such labels of egalitarianism or complementarianisn completely.
I appreciate your curiosity. Totally get that. I do hope though that whatever you post is what you feel and not what would seem best to me.
There are ways.
Not going to tell you because I am not particularly feeling René Descartes.
PS - God can direct the minds of kings. His sheep hear His voice.
EDIT : Going to take leave of this discussion everyone. Thanks for the replies. God bless.
This is why I said it would not be fruitful to discussion to figure out what I might be and then post. I do not fit into any such labels of egalitarianism or complementarianisn completely.
I appreciate your curiosity. Totally get that. I do hope though that whatever you post is what you feel and not what would seem best to me.
There are ways.
Not going to tell you because I am not particularly feeling René Descartes.
PS - God can direct the minds of kings. His sheep hear His voice.
EDIT : Going to take leave of this discussion everyone. Thanks for the replies. God bless.
Rachel20, I'm very sorry but your absolutely wrong.
All of your points either don't support your claims and some are answered in the Bible already.
You mention context. You basically said that in Biblical times that women didn't have a choice in marriage. That's fine. There wasn't dating either. That also works.
If your argument is... "Well, there wasn't dating and women choosing who to marry back then so the idea of a wife being in full submission to her husband is not applicable today."
Then... you basically shot yourself in the foot because TODAY we do have dating and women do choose who they marry when they say "I do." So, since you think dating and women have a choice in who they marry was necessary... then by your own words... a wife in submission to her husband is fine. Shouryu's argument stands. In today's culture, unmarried women, more than ever have much less excuse to object and complain about wives submitting to their husband because of Shouryu argument, actually.
Next, you mentioned education and work. One, women in biblical times had jobs. If you read about the proverbs woman, she had a job. There was another women who hanged around with the apostles... worked as-well. I don't know her name, but the point is women were not just home-makers in biblical times. They worked. However, from reading the scriptures a woman's main focus is the home reading all of proverbs 31 and specifically Proverbs 31:27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.
That being said, just because a woman today can economically stand on her own... doesn't mean she shouldn't submit to her husband. In scripture, the reason husbands have authority over their wives is not because women need men to provide for them, but because Adam was created first and Eve was deceived. Those are the biblical reasons. I haven't read.. wives submit to your husband because he makes more money than you.
Again you said that a wife is lesser if she submits. I just don't see that... I don't imagine my future wife as a lesser person just because she'd be submitting to me. Again, remember Jesus's submission to God the father. Jesus is equal to God the father and he submitted. Think of it this way...
God the father and Jesus are equal... because these two persons of God are one
Husband and Wife are equal... because these two persons are one
Your not independent... if you think you are... then your not Christian because as Christians we're suppose to be dependent on God. You can be educated and capable if you want but that doesn't change God's word.
You said, " The Bible is quite clear – the husband must love his wife. If you love someone, you would respect her."
Let me quote what Jesus said, "John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commands."
Rachel20, I'm telling you all this because you need to hear it. I know you said you aren't going to reply but think about what I said okay.
All of your points either don't support your claims and some are answered in the Bible already.
You mention context. You basically said that in Biblical times that women didn't have a choice in marriage. That's fine. There wasn't dating either. That also works.
If your argument is... "Well, there wasn't dating and women choosing who to marry back then so the idea of a wife being in full submission to her husband is not applicable today."
Then... you basically shot yourself in the foot because TODAY we do have dating and women do choose who they marry when they say "I do." So, since you think dating and women have a choice in who they marry was necessary... then by your own words... a wife in submission to her husband is fine. Shouryu's argument stands. In today's culture, unmarried women, more than ever have much less excuse to object and complain about wives submitting to their husband because of Shouryu argument, actually.
Next, you mentioned education and work. One, women in biblical times had jobs. If you read about the proverbs woman, she had a job. There was another women who hanged around with the apostles... worked as-well. I don't know her name, but the point is women were not just home-makers in biblical times. They worked. However, from reading the scriptures a woman's main focus is the home reading all of proverbs 31 and specifically Proverbs 31:27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.
That being said, just because a woman today can economically stand on her own... doesn't mean she shouldn't submit to her husband. In scripture, the reason husbands have authority over their wives is not because women need men to provide for them, but because Adam was created first and Eve was deceived. Those are the biblical reasons. I haven't read.. wives submit to your husband because he makes more money than you.
Again you said that a wife is lesser if she submits. I just don't see that... I don't imagine my future wife as a lesser person just because she'd be submitting to me. Again, remember Jesus's submission to God the father. Jesus is equal to God the father and he submitted. Think of it this way...
God the father and Jesus are equal... because these two persons of God are one
Husband and Wife are equal... because these two persons are one
Your not independent... if you think you are... then your not Christian because as Christians we're suppose to be dependent on God. You can be educated and capable if you want but that doesn't change God's word.
You said, " The Bible is quite clear – the husband must love his wife. If you love someone, you would respect her."
Let me quote what Jesus said, "John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commands."
Rachel20, I'm telling you all this because you need to hear it. I know you said you aren't going to reply but think about what I said okay.