The Veto Concept
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S
*blushes* Ohhhh, you stop it, you. *giggles*
1 Peter 3:1-2, NASB
"In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. "
1 Peter 3:1-2, NASB
"In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. "
Again, context matters.
There are limits to everything in this world and if at any point we need to exercise our wisdom we should.
We are first all under God. Not man.
The story of Abigail [1 Samuel 25] is a noteworthy one.
Abigail's husband Nabal was a greedy and stupid man who refused to share food with David despite David and his men protecting their household.
On hearing this Abigail decided to bring food to David and his men, going against her husband's order.
If she hadn't been "submissive", their whole household would have been slaughtered. When she addresses David about Nabal, this is what she said.
“Please pay no attention, my lord, to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name – his name means Fool, and folly goes with him. “ - 1 Samuel 25:25
Rather than condemn Abigail for her boldness and disobedience, she is praised for her wisdom.
In fact, at the end Nabal ends up dying and she ends up being a queen...
★
Objection, Your Honour.
In India, husbands are wont to tell their wives when to go out, what to do, when to go to bed, what to eat, whom to speak to, so on and so forth. Methinks that such husbands are better off living with a remote-controlled robot. Me-also-thinks that wives who submit to such husbands are robots themselves.
In India, husbands are wont to tell their wives when to go out, what to do, when to go to bed, what to eat, whom to speak to, so on and so forth. Methinks that such husbands are better off living with a remote-controlled robot. Me-also-thinks that wives who submit to such husbands are robots themselves.
S
I'll run with that one, sure.
But, what defines a spiritual matter and what defines a secular one. If one spouse starts racking up credit card debt, can we say there's a serious spiritual problem here and intervention is required?
I mean, otherwise, this could be an excuse to get out of housework or something (hey, why didn't I think of that).
Bwhahahaha.
But, what defines a spiritual matter and what defines a secular one. If one spouse starts racking up credit card debt, can we say there's a serious spiritual problem here and intervention is required?
I mean, otherwise, this could be an excuse to get out of housework or something (hey, why didn't I think of that).
Bwhahahaha.
For starters being in submission doesn't make you lesser in value. Jesus Christ was in submission to God the father and we consider Jesus equal to God the father... so to the women who think being in submission makes you lesser... you implicitly have a higher standard than God.
Next, the word dictator has been used. That word has bad connotations. What is it that is meant by dictator?? That a man who is in control of his family is similar to Hitler or Stalin?? A man having full authority doesn't mean he is a dictator... a dictator is evil and self serving. The use of the word dictator is misleading and unjustified. Let me remind you that we submit to a God that wants your full control. Whether you agree with a husband leading his family or not....If you call it dictatorship... implying that it is evil, then by default your calling God evil implicitly because he wants our submission as well.
Also, the educational background is not something that allows a husband authority. Scripture says ... 1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
The reason why men are appointed with authority is because that was the order of our origin and because of Eve being deceived.
I've heard that theologians note that Adam was NOT deceived and based on that part of scripture... conclude that Adam purposely sinned so that he can join whatever fate his wife would have out of love for his wife. Perhaps, we are genetically better suited for the positions God gave us? Regardless, merit is not a reason for a husband's authority.
1. Submission doesn't make a woman lesser. Jesus was in submission and equal to God the father.
2. A husband having full authority over his household doesn't make him an evil dictator. Please not also that God is not a dictator. He is the sovereign king of all and can do as he pleases but not an evil dictator.
3. Man is in charge because he was created first and because Eve was deceived.
That being said, I believe that a wife should submit her husband in all matters with the exception of sin or special circumstances such as life threatening situations like rachel20 showed. I'll point out another example of disobeying proper authority for Godly reasons in scripture ... off the top of my head... in exodus... when pharaohs ordered the Jewish midwives to kill off the newborn boys of the Jewish slaves... The midwives refused and didn't obey. God honored them. Scripture says to obey government, but as you can see there are clear exceptions... such as when government does ungodly things.
I'm pretty disappointed but at the same time not surprised by some of the girls responses.... how sad that I'm not surprised.
You ladies need to understand that culture should not dictate your values... God should.
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
And keep in mind that the husband is ideally suppose to be Godly and under Jesus's submission... I'd think such a man would want what's best for his family when making his decisions.
Next, the word dictator has been used. That word has bad connotations. What is it that is meant by dictator?? That a man who is in control of his family is similar to Hitler or Stalin?? A man having full authority doesn't mean he is a dictator... a dictator is evil and self serving. The use of the word dictator is misleading and unjustified. Let me remind you that we submit to a God that wants your full control. Whether you agree with a husband leading his family or not....If you call it dictatorship... implying that it is evil, then by default your calling God evil implicitly because he wants our submission as well.
Also, the educational background is not something that allows a husband authority. Scripture says ... 1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
The reason why men are appointed with authority is because that was the order of our origin and because of Eve being deceived.
I've heard that theologians note that Adam was NOT deceived and based on that part of scripture... conclude that Adam purposely sinned so that he can join whatever fate his wife would have out of love for his wife. Perhaps, we are genetically better suited for the positions God gave us? Regardless, merit is not a reason for a husband's authority.
1. Submission doesn't make a woman lesser. Jesus was in submission and equal to God the father.
2. A husband having full authority over his household doesn't make him an evil dictator. Please not also that God is not a dictator. He is the sovereign king of all and can do as he pleases but not an evil dictator.
3. Man is in charge because he was created first and because Eve was deceived.
That being said, I believe that a wife should submit her husband in all matters with the exception of sin or special circumstances such as life threatening situations like rachel20 showed. I'll point out another example of disobeying proper authority for Godly reasons in scripture ... off the top of my head... in exodus... when pharaohs ordered the Jewish midwives to kill off the newborn boys of the Jewish slaves... The midwives refused and didn't obey. God honored them. Scripture says to obey government, but as you can see there are clear exceptions... such as when government does ungodly things.
I'm pretty disappointed but at the same time not surprised by some of the girls responses.... how sad that I'm not surprised.
You ladies need to understand that culture should not dictate your values... God should.
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
And keep in mind that the husband is ideally suppose to be Godly and under Jesus's submission... I'd think such a man would want what's best for his family when making his decisions.
I come back to this thread, to post about something that is interesting to me.
Mentioning that context matters in the Bible and how cultural times have changed has led many posters to comment on ignoring/picking and choosing parts of the Bible.
A poster mentioned how submission would be easy if married to a man of a certain character.
Well. Have you considered that the women of those days probably did not have that freedom to make such a choice?
Marriages in those times were usually formal arrangements largely done by the father of the bride and the man with dowry included. [See OT marriages like Rebecca and Isaac, Rachel and Jacob]
Not to say they weren’t a few with mutual decisions but in general those times dictated such customs.
They also did not have concepts of dating like now.
Women of those times also did not have as much opportunity as the men in terms of education or even work.
They remained at home and depended on their husbands to provide for them.
Being illiterate and uninformed, they were asked to keep quiet in meetings and if they had any questions to ask their husbands at home.
The husband would then have the responsibility to “wash her with the Word”.
The Bible is quite clear – the husband must love his wife. If you love someone, you would respect her.
A wife is supposed to be a helper, not a servant or even a subordinate. The Holy Spirit is called our helper but is not in a position lower than us.
Likewise, the Bible asks wives to respect their husbands who in those days would be their caretaker, provider, all of that stuff.
Isn’t it expected of someone who can’t fend for themselves to show that much respect and concern for the person who provides for you?
As an independent, educated and capable woman, I want to be able to have an equal say in decisions that are made.
You might say it is a question of trust to allow someone to do it completely for you but we all are different and clearly we all have different goals whether it is our relationships, life and in general.
Where does the Bible say you have to blindly trust in a man? [Psalm 118:8]
If I loved someone, I would definitely respect him and care for his opinions.
I want a companion, best friend and partner in a husband.
Not someone who makes decisions for me or even provides for me because I can do that by myself very well.
Mentioning that context matters in the Bible and how cultural times have changed has led many posters to comment on ignoring/picking and choosing parts of the Bible.
A poster mentioned how submission would be easy if married to a man of a certain character.
Well. Have you considered that the women of those days probably did not have that freedom to make such a choice?
Marriages in those times were usually formal arrangements largely done by the father of the bride and the man with dowry included. [See OT marriages like Rebecca and Isaac, Rachel and Jacob]
Not to say they weren’t a few with mutual decisions but in general those times dictated such customs.
They also did not have concepts of dating like now.
Women of those times also did not have as much opportunity as the men in terms of education or even work.
They remained at home and depended on their husbands to provide for them.
Being illiterate and uninformed, they were asked to keep quiet in meetings and if they had any questions to ask their husbands at home.
The husband would then have the responsibility to “wash her with the Word”.
The Bible is quite clear – the husband must love his wife. If you love someone, you would respect her.
A wife is supposed to be a helper, not a servant or even a subordinate. The Holy Spirit is called our helper but is not in a position lower than us.
Likewise, the Bible asks wives to respect their husbands who in those days would be their caretaker, provider, all of that stuff.
Isn’t it expected of someone who can’t fend for themselves to show that much respect and concern for the person who provides for you?
As an independent, educated and capable woman, I want to be able to have an equal say in decisions that are made.
You might say it is a question of trust to allow someone to do it completely for you but we all are different and clearly we all have different goals whether it is our relationships, life and in general.
Where does the Bible say you have to blindly trust in a man? [Psalm 118:8]
If I loved someone, I would definitely respect him and care for his opinions.
I want a companion, best friend and partner in a husband.
Not someone who makes decisions for me or even provides for me because I can do that by myself very well.
hey rachel, i've written something longer,but it's not done. i'm about ready to take a nap, but i want to ask you one question.
do you believe that a man has a greater level of responsibility as headship of a family/marriage?
and do you believe that a husband has any leadership role in marriage/family?
last question : )
are you saying that you view the role of husband and wife as interchangeable/identical as far as responsibility, leadership, and authority?
do you believe that a man has a greater level of responsibility as headship of a family/marriage?
and do you believe that a husband has any leadership role in marriage/family?
last question : )
are you saying that you view the role of husband and wife as interchangeable/identical as far as responsibility, leadership, and authority?