To Live

[LightningClap0002]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see anything supporting the idea that he, or those who pray and seek and follow and trust God, are lacking in maturity. I would consider someone of great faith who is actively following God's will in love to be spiritually mature. It is clear that you have no desire to present biblical support, so I will simply say what I said initially.

I am deeply saddened by people who's mindset leads them to the disciplinary actions in question.

And bid you goodbye.

 

[Nautilus]

Well can I just get the name of your church and pastor to guarantee he is never near any kids I know? Heck he might get some crazy idea to send young boys to witness to NAMBLA.

 

[Ugly]

I'm unsure if it just really wasn't clear when "I said that there was no coercing involved or not. In truth this was more providing an opportunity, possibly encouraging to, but not really "sending".

Ugly, I didn't mention preaching but referred to "outreach". I realize I wasn't clear on this; I would like to clarify this. The "work" they were taking part in was acting out love in Christ's name. Helping those who needed help. I'm not sure if this will change anything in your response, but wanted to make sure this was clear.

Can you clarify what lead you to believe that I(or he) was trying to justify anything by saying "God protects"? This seems to be judging the character, intentions and mind of the pastor. I'm not sure how you or I could do this. It was my understanding that he did this to spread God's love to those without hope. It wasn't because of the danger, it was in spite of it.

Also, I'm not sure that I understand this "wisdom" as God leads. If this pastor, if these HS children(nearly legally adults anyways), were following Gods will. If they prayed in earnest and followed God's direction (acted out their christianity), then what is unwise? Rather, to me, it seems foolish and unwise to resist God's will.

Did you have specific verses in mind with respect to God's use, or lack of use, of children to share his love to the world? In the OT, we see David and Goliath. NT wise, my mind instantly jumps to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, where Jesus gets indignant about the ones pushing children away. I certainly don't think either of these are real clear on the subject, but to me they seem to demonstrate an idea that God recognizes the usefulness and value of children. Are there others that you are aware of?

You keep complaining people are misunderstanding or misconstruing your post, yet you are doing the same to others. I don't see anywhere in my post where i said there was anything wrong with kids being used in ministry. So stop twisting my words. What i said was, it was wrong to send children (nearly legal is still not legal) to an unsafe area with no adult supervision. Please show me the exact point where i said there was anything wrong with taking kids out to minister/outreach or whatever term you want to use. I even considered becoming a youth pastor for a time.
I don't have a problem with it. In fact, when i was a 15 i used to go into crack town and witness. Friday nights. But, i had adults around me. People who were experienced and familiar with what was going on. People who were in charge. I was also a leader in two youth groups, played in a youth worship band, played some for main service, and played in a Christian band, performed other types of outreaches. All as a teen. So no, i don't need a verse, because thats not what i said at all.
So no, i'm not 'pushing away ones children' or any other made up, exaggerated and twisted claim you have against what i said.

And i didn't judge anyones character. I simply said i didn't think it was wisdom sending out underage teens to dangerous areas without an adult. How is it 'judging character' to say i feel someone didn't use wisdom? I can see this is going to get nowhere if your only arguments are to put words in my mouth or twist what i say. I'm done.

 

[LightningClap0002]

You keep complaining people are misunderstanding or misconstruing your post, yet you are doing the same to others. I don't see anywhere in my post where i said there was anything wrong with kids being used in ministry. So stop twisting my words. What i said was, it was wrong to send children (nearly legal is still not legal) to an unsafe area with no adult supervision. Please show me the exact point where i said there was anything wrong with taking kids out to minister/outreach or whatever term you want to use. I even considered becoming a youth pastor for a time.
I don't have a problem with it. In fact, when i was a 15 i used to go into crack town and witness. Friday nights. But, i had adults around me. People who were experienced and familiar with what was going on. People who were in charge. I was also a leader in two youth groups, played in a youth worship band, played some for main service, and played in a Christian band, performed other types of outreaches. All as a teen. So no, i don't need a verse, because thats not what i said at all.
So no, i'm not 'pushing away ones children' or any other made up, exaggerated and twisted claim you have against what i said.

And i didn't judge anyones character. I simply said i didn't think it was wisdom sending out underage teens to dangerous areas without an adult. How is it 'judging character' to say i feel someone didn't use wisdom? I can see this is going to get nowhere if your only arguments are to put words in my mouth or twist what i say. I'm done.

Sorry, I truly didn't mean to twist your words. I'm asking you, as I asked Nautilus, if/what the biblical basis for your beliefs are. I didn't say you needed to provide a verse at all. You presented an opinion, I'm sorry that I misunderstood it , but I still was seeking clarification, not an attack post. Is the view you presented based on any scripture? If so, which ones? I even asked about scripture that contradicted your opinion. I in truth was just asking about any scripture regarding the issue at all. If you don't, then you don't. If you do, then I have gained new understanding of God's word. Was this intention unclear?

I am still quite confounded by your responses. I asked you to clarify things, how is that twisting your words? I specifically asked the following( did you answer them somewhere that I didn't see?):
Can you clarify what lead you to believe that I(or he) was trying to justify anything by saying "God protects"?

If they prayed in earnest and followed God's direction (acted out their christianity), then what is unwise?

Did you have specific verses in mind with respect to [your opinion] of children's [role]?
Are there others that you are aware of?

These questions were not claims about what you said or didn't say. They were questions; Of which I was hoping to receive answers so I could better understand the position which you took and possibly gain a new perspective on God. I am disappointed that you don't wish to expand upon your opinions or discuss biblical principles around these issues, but God bless you.

 

[Nautilus]

Why dont you just post a simple list of questions then. Though I dont understand why every opinion needs a biblical basis, we were given free will to think for ourselves.

 

[lonewolf]

From another thread...

If a pastor at your church sent several HS aged kids to do outreach in a sketchy part of town without an adult, would you trust God enough to protect your son, or fire the pastor?



That isn't an answer to the question that was asked... That said, I would have willingly gone anywhere if given the opportunity as a High Schooler. For this scenario, I will also assume that the students weren't forced or coerced to go. I have no doubt that God's will is done. Perhaps "send" wasn't quite the most accurate word, I hadn't really considered the implications. For me, at least, this is not at all a test of God. We are commanded to go out and help the hurting. Clearly it is God's will that we show his love to a hurting world. If His will is greater to take me off this earth, especially at that age, I would have much rather gone out sharing his love with the most downtrodden and hurting.

As Paul discusses, life on this earth is not to 'see how long we can live' but to do God's will for as long as He desires(Romans 14, Phillipians 1). I don't live for myself, and in truth, embraced this in my HS years even more than I do today. As Paul demonstrates, I am not alone in this. Providing an opportunity for someone to embrace this seems truly beneficial to me still.

Back to the original question. Nobody got hurt, the punishment seems far too great for something that could actually have been completely God's will. If there is so much concern, this seems like it would be the time to correct, not abandon. Many (all?) of the students were affected deeply by this experience. I am still saddened.

What if something did happen to those kids?? Is the pastor just supposed to say oh well, I guess it was God's will? There were two christians ages 23 and 24 who were gunned down when they witnessed to someone in a beach town in Florida. Try telling the families of these two guys that God protects his witnesses!

Two Christians Murdered for Witnessing in Boynton Beach - Christian Newswire

 

[LightningClap0002]

Why dont you just post a simple list of questions then. Though I dont understand why every opinion needs a biblical basis, we were given free will to think for ourselves.

Again, I never claimed it needed one. I was asking out of a desire to understand and expand my biblical knowledge.


Completely off topic, but I don't believe that we have free will.

What if something did happen to those kids?? Is the pastor just supposed to say oh well, I guess it was God's will?
If it was my kids, I would not need an explanation beyond a description of what they were doing and why. If they were seeking to do God's will, that would be more than enough for me. "To live is Christ, to die is gain." - Philippians 1:21

 

[Jullianna]

MATTHEW 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

The passion of the pastor and the ferver of the kids is great, but permission slips could have prevented this whole thing.

Yes, we take risks in sharing the gospel, but we don't run headlong into the fray of battle without being prepared, without girding ourselves. We know absolutely that we can trust God with our children and ourselves, but He also expects us to seek wise counsel and to conduct ourselves wisely. Jesus didn't throw Himself from the heights as satan dared Him for a reason. We are not to tempt the Lord our God.

Being a parent is an awesome responsibility. God entrusts HIS children into our care. We are accountable to Him to use the good sense He gave us not to let them play in the street, swim with sharks, run with scissors, play with loaded firearms, etc.
I realize that some kids mature more quickly than others and are more prepared for certain situations than others, but a minor is a minor is a minor. There are a lot of shrewd characters out there just waiting to take advantage of them, in EVERY neighborhood.

I would be interested to know how old this pastor is and how many children he has, and their ages. I would also be willing to listen to his point of view.

From what I've read here, I don't see that what he did was evil, but I can't say it was full of godly wisdom either.

I pray for healing for everyone involved at your church, Lightening. I pray against division and discord. I pray that this will not dampen the passion of the kids or the pastor.

God bless

 

[Ritter]

This reminds me of the children's crusade only with out a bloody ending.

You really can't blame the clergy. They may have indirectly influenced impressionable youth to make foolish decisions for the sake of heavenly gain, but, at the end of the day, it is the youth's choice to lay down the plow and comforts of home for the dangers of a life in the trenches.

If we allowed our youth to make more decisions like this (coupled with a mature Biblical outlook on life), then wisdom will not be forced upon them, but grow more naturally.

What I do know is that society cannot survive a prolonged adolescence of a magnitude people suggest is proper (into one's 30's? Who believes this?).

 

[Nautilus]

You don't believe we have free will? Isn't that one of the best things about Christianity is that God gave us free will? So that we can choose to follow him? I mean otherwise we would just be stupid puppets and there is no point to a life like that.

 

[keep_on_smiling]

I agree with Jullianna about permission slips.

I don't think it would be right to blame the pastor for this, but rather the parents of these children if you think there was a problem. As a parent, one should be looking out for their children and if they didn't know what the program was, then that's on the parents. Regardless of whether or not the pastor felt led to send the kids there (my guess is he did), everyone had a choice in whether or not to go.

Trust the Lord in everything, He is always with us. Keep in mind He doesn't leave us, we leave Him.