To Live

[LightningClap0002]

From another thread...

If a pastor at your church sent several HS aged kids to do outreach in a sketchy part of town without an adult, would you trust God enough to protect your son, or fire the pastor?

I wouldnt send unchaperoned HS kids to a bad part of town. That is asking for trouble. And faith or not you shouldnt be testing God.

That isn't an answer to the question that was asked... That said, I would have willingly gone anywhere if given the opportunity as a High Schooler. For this scenario, I will also assume that the students weren't forced or coerced to go. I have no doubt that God's will is done. Perhaps "send" wasn't quite the most accurate word, I hadn't really considered the implications. For me, at least, this is not at all a test of God. We are commanded to go out and help the hurting. Clearly it is God's will that we show his love to a hurting world. If His will is greater to take me off this earth, especially at that age, I would have much rather gone out sharing his love with the most downtrodden and hurting.

As Paul discusses, life on this earth is not to 'see how long we can live' but to do God's will for as long as He desires(Romans 14, Phillipians 1). I don't live for myself, and in truth, embraced this in my HS years even more than I do today. As Paul demonstrates, I am not alone in this. Providing an opportunity for someone to embrace this seems truly beneficial to me still.

Back to the original question. Nobody got hurt, the punishment seems far too great for something that could actually have been completely God's will. If there is so much concern, this seems like it would be the time to correct, not abandon. Many (all?) of the students were affected deeply by this experience. I am still saddened.

 

[Nautilus]

Nobody got hurt? So that validates irresponsibility in the beginning? thats now how things work. If someone had sent my kid to some bad part of town without I chaerone I would certianly want them disciplined, maybe fired not sure, but there certainly need to be consequences. I mean even nice parts of town arent always safe anymore

 

[LightningClap0002]

Nobody got hurt? So that validates irresponsibility in the beginning? thats now how things work. If someone had sent my kid to some bad part of town without I chaerone I would certianly want them disciplined, maybe fired not sure, but there certainly need to be consequences. I mean even nice parts of town arent always safe anymore

Would you kindly present some scripture that supports this worldview?

Also, I didn't say or imply that "nobody got hurt" was validating irresponsibility. What gave you this idea?

 

[Nautilus]

Also, I didn't say or imply that "nobody got hurt" was validating irresponsibility. What gave you this idea?

Back to the original question. Nobody got hurt, the punishment seems far too great for something that could actually have been completely God's will.

You mention no one got hurt, but what does that even matter? The pastor but them in an unsafe situation. He should face the consequences. I fail to see how someone can say he is not liable.

 

[LightningClap0002]

You mention no one got hurt, but what does that even matter? The pastor but them in an unsafe situation. He should face the consequences. I fail to see how someone can say he is not liable.

I was suggesting that the punishment should fit the crime. Were they actually in an unsafe situation, or was God walking with each of them? I believe completely that God is constantly guiding and protecting me. I have seen Him step in on many occasions, and the Bible demonstrates this ever more profoundly. A part of my point (the one you isolated) was that since none of them got injured, you have no means of demonstrating that it was an unsafe situation. As such, the punishment, if any should be significantly less. Even if one of them got hurt, I do not believe that said person should be punished. I do not consider his actions irresponsible.

Which brings me back to my other question. I really am interested in any scripture you know of that supports your position. I am not aware of any, but I have not memorized the Bible in its entirety. I have presented 2 verses which are the basis for my view that whether I continue to live, or I die it is all up to God. I believe that christians are encouraged and directed to embrace this view. What has lead to your view?

 

[Nautilus]

My worldview of dont put myself in dangerous situations? I call that basic common sense, something I thought God gave to all of us, but perhaps not. And even then he is a pastor...that doesnt mean he is anything special and can just send kids into a situation like this. The man should not be responsible for kids at all if this is the way he handles. What if something had happened? The what 'oops sorry guess God wasn't with your kid that day?' Christianity is about a relationship not the right to be stupid. The man made a bad decision, regardless of the outcome it was an irresponsible and foolhardy choice, he deserves some form of punishment. If firing is what the congregation supports then go for it. If it had been my kid he would be lucky to just get fired after endangering them like that.

 

[LightningClap0002]

My worldview of dont put myself in dangerous situations? I call that basic common sense, something I thought God gave to all of us, but perhaps not. And even then he is a pastor...that doesnt mean he is anything special and can just send kids into a situation like this. The man should not be responsible for kids at all if this is the way he handles. What if something had happened? The what 'oops sorry guess God wasn't with your kid that day?' Christianity is about a relationship not the right to be stupid. The man made a bad decision, regardless of the outcome it was an irresponsible and foolhardy choice, he deserves some form of punishment. If firing is what the congregation supports then go for it. If it had been my kid he would be lucky to just get fired after endangering them like that.

I'm confused and saddened. God is always with us, live or die. Your "common sense" does not seem to coincide with either of the verses I referenced. Paul put himself in harms way over and over. Christ did the same. The disciples repeatedly put themselves in very real danger. There are many additional examples from the OT where God sent people to many unsafe places; even children (David and Goliath). Every day missionaries all over the world put themselves in harms way to spread the word of God. I have also heard (true) stories about the miracles God has performed using kids for outreach, and His protection for them.

I did already try to clarify that by "send" I didn't mean coerce or force. Was this not actually clear? :S
I have tried to live my life in accordance with Isaiah 6:8. Even as a middle schooler, certainly as a high schooler. I would willingly have gone.

I'm wondering where this idea came from that I was suggesting that it is a special situation because "he was a pastor". I don't see that I suggested this.

I have not intended to present an idea that it would be an "oops" if someone got injured or killed. I am suggesting it is Gods will. It is the potter who chooses the purpose and length of life of the pot he creates. If you're unfamiliar with the verses I'm referring to here, I can pull them for you.

Finally, what of grace for the pastor? If he is shown the errors(if they were) in his ways and promises to not continue in his actions, we should forgive him. In that forgiveness, we should not asssume that he will fail again, but out of love trust and hope that he has truly changed. In the end, God is in control, always (Romans 8:28).

 

[Ugly]

But there's a distinction between an adult, with a full understanding of the danger, and accepting of the consequences, going to a dangerous place vs sending children without an adult to at least monitor. While yes, we are to trust God, we are also supposed to use wisdom. But even trusting God doesn't save us from persecution. Look at the apostles. They were trusting God, did that keep them from harm? God doesn't promises us freedom from harm, especially when it comes to preaching. Preaching is actually quite dangerous. People all over are persecuted for it, from something small as heckling to beatings and death. I don't think its wisdom sending a bunch of children into dangerous situations saying 'God protects' justifies what happened.

 

[Liamson]

I suppose I'm with Lightning on this one. Perhaps even farther in the direction that he was coming from.

When I was 16-18 I did a lot of crazy things but, I never got hurt or in trouble. By 17 I was in the Navy, still not an "adult" yet.

If we believe that we have raised our children correctly, then the choice to do something like this should fall on them at that age 15+. Why? because at 18 they do not suddenly gain 100 life XP and are consciously aware of the dangers out there.

 

[LightningClap0002]

But there's a distinction between an adult, with a full understanding of the danger, and accepting of the consequences, going to a dangerous place vs sending children without an adult to at least monitor. While yes, we are to trust God, we are also supposed to use wisdom. But even trusting God doesn't save us from persecution. Look at the apostles. They were trusting God, did that keep them from harm? God doesn't promises us freedom from harm, especially when it comes to preaching. Preaching is actually quite dangerous. People all over are persecuted for it, from something small as heckling to beatings and death. I don't think its wisdom sending a bunch of children into dangerous situations saying 'God protects' justifies what happened.

I'm unsure if it just really wasn't clear when "I said that there was no coercing involved or not. In truth this was more providing an opportunity, possibly encouraging to, but not really "sending".

Ugly, I didn't mention preaching but referred to "outreach". I realize I wasn't clear on this; I would like to clarify this. The "work" they were taking part in was acting out love in Christ's name. Helping those who needed help. I'm not sure if this will change anything in your response, but wanted to make sure this was clear.

Can you clarify what lead you to believe that I(or he) was trying to justify anything by saying "God protects"? This seems to be judging the character, intentions and mind of the pastor. I'm not sure how you or I could do this. It was my understanding that he did this to spread God's love to those without hope. It wasn't because of the danger, it was in spite of it.

Also, I'm not sure that I understand this "wisdom" as God leads. If this pastor, if these HS children(nearly legally adults anyways), were following Gods will. If they prayed in earnest and followed God's direction (acted out their christianity), then what is unwise? Rather, to me, it seems foolish and unwise to resist God's will.

Did you have specific verses in mind with respect to God's use, or lack of use, of children to share his love to the world? In the OT, we see David and Goliath. NT wise, my mind instantly jumps to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, where Jesus gets indignant about the ones pushing children away. I certainly don't think either of these are real clear on the subject, but to me they seem to demonstrate an idea that God recognizes the usefulness and value of children. Are there others that you are aware of?

 

[Nautilus]

all i know is im a gorwn man and im not going to willingly go to the bad part of town, mainly because im not stupid and am not willing to get robbed, killed, or beaten. There is plenty of God's work to do in nice affluent neighborhoods where i feel safe. Maybe if a cop was withme or a had a weapon for self defense. Id reconsider

 

[LightningClap0002]

all i know is im a gorwn man and im not going to willingly go to the bad part of town, mainly because im not stupid and am not willing to get robbed, killed, or beaten. There is plenty of God's work to do in nice affluent neighborhoods where i feel safe. Maybe if a cop was withme or a had a weapon for self defense. Id reconsider

I have little doubt that God directs different people to different groups of people. That said, I'm still really saddened by the desire/need to punish someone for quite probably doing God's will.

 

[Nautilus]

no one is punishing him for doing Gods will. Its for putting children in possible danger. If this was so important to him he could have gone himself

 

[LightningClap0002]

no one is punishing him for doing Gods will. Its for putting children in possible danger. If this was so important to him he could have gone himself

He did also, but if God's will was for the students to go, then by enabling them to do so, He was also doing God's will.

 

[Liamson]

The bad part of town?

Its not like a dark forest full of Bear and Moose looking to curb stomp you. These are people with children and hope and dreams just like the rest of us.

Having seen the "bad part of town" in Mexico, I don't see a problem.

 

[Liz01]

hahaha, the "bad part of town" in Mexico include almost all the country in this moment......

 

[LightningClap0002]

The bad part of town?

Its not like a dark forest full of Bear and Moose looking to curb stomp you. These are people with children and hope and dreams just like the rest of us.

Having seen the "bad part of town" in Mexico, I don't see a problem.

Curb stomp, huh?

 

[Nautilus]

He did also, but if God's will was for the students to go, then by enabling them to do so, He was also doing God's will.

You're also assuming that he was doing God's will. One thing I've learned is not everyone who says it is actually following it. Though some people sure do treat it like a get out of jail free card

 

[LightningClap0002]

You're also assuming that he was doing God's will. One thing I've learned is not everyone who says it is actually following it. Though some people sure do treat it like a get out of jail free card

As previously cited:

Romans 8
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who have been called according to his purpose.


Now(unlike before), I will make an argument about pastors being "special" in some sense of the word. At least in my denomination, being ordained is quite a rigorous process including a master's degree from a school of biblical theology and "testing" by previously ordained leaders. They are determined to be 'called by God' to the ministry. This means that he has been tried and tested and known to be "called according to his purpose."

As for my assumption, I was doing no such things. I have said "if it was" and "very probably" and "could have been" God's will. What I do know is that God has biblically, historically, and in my own life used potentially/clearly "unsafe" situations to accomplish His will even with non-adults. God commands us to show His love to "the least of these" and to "make disciples of all nations." As such, I am saddened by the extreme discipline used in response to something that is both in accordance with God's demonstrated behavior, and as such is quite probably God's will.

I'm still confused as it seems you continue to be arguing against things I haven't said. I hope the responses here are clear.

 

[Nautilus]

Im just saying regardless of Gods will or not he put children in danger whether or not something bad happened, what he did showed a lack of maturity. I find that hard to refute.