Warnings about Contemporary Praise Music by David Cloud

[feedm3]

Wow bit defensive how? If you noticed he said listen, which probably means the actual audio sermon at the top. Not everything in this thread is centered around you believe it or not. And yes the audio sermon is very legalistic, it comes from a very legalistic man.

So? My point was, that all you who cry legalism, only do it toward those who do not believe what you do. That makes you exactly the character you condemning.

Look how you jumped at me for not accepting what you do. I know you were a little angry because I brought out your inconsistency. But still, you hate the fact that I dont believe what you do concerning instruments, as if I walked into where you worship and started throwing out the instruments. Sounds legalistic to me.

I believe our authority for religion is the Bible, not creed books, not what our "pastor's teach" but ONLY the Bible. So if I want to use only the Bible, and not go beyond what is written, and not agree with you, then I am a legaist. lol man. you people are funny to me, dont care about logic, consistently, or being able to prove why you do or do not do from the Bible. Then you want to attack others who do.

So make a vailid argument, show a good point, or just stop attacking people until you can.


Does this make Paul a "legalist"?
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us

 

[adekruif]

I don't need ANYBODY telling me, a child of GOD, how I should NOT worship my GOD! Period!


I'll worship him the way the Bible tells me too, and the way I see fit, NOT how someone else wants me to see fit.

 

[Nautilus]

So im a legalistic because you say worshipping acapella is the only way and I disagree, i think instruments can be used without penalty? Makes sense.

 

[feedm3]

So im a legalistic because you say worshipping acapella is the only way and I disagree, i think instruments can be used without penalty? Makes sense.

And you say I am one because you say we can any way and I disagree. What's the difference?

 

[Nautilus]

I never called you legalistic, you're grasping at straws. In fact the only time I mentioned Legalism was in reference to the original post.

 

[feedm3]

I don't need ANYBODY telling me, a child of GOD, how I should NOT worship my GOD! Period!


I'll worship him the way the Bible tells me too, and the way I see fit, NOT how someone else wants me to see fit.

First, I never told you anything. Second, you go ahead and worship YOU see fit. Me too, and I see fit to only worship with authority from scripture. You don't have believe that, that's your choice. I believe if we add to what is written it is a sin, because I believe certain passages that say so. Yet again, you can believe what you want. Does not mean I have to accept what you believe so not to be legalistic, just as I am sure you don't accept what I believe. So what?

In the end, either it does not matter, or it does. I know for sure It is not a sin for NOT to use instruments. I know I am commanded to sing. I know I am commanded ONLY to in word (teach) or deed (practice) by the authority of Christ - Col 3:17.
So if I cant find authority for it, I will not do it.

I believe some things are a matter of expediency, to carry out the command given. Like Meeting on the first day of the week. We are commanded by implication to do so.

But we are not told what time, what place, indoors, outdoors, all these are expedient to carrying out the command.

Instruments I dont see as an expedient, but an addition. So I choose not to worship where their are instruments because I must be able to worship God with a good conscience.

This does not make me legalistic. Cautious if anything. Defiantly not a legalistic, even if I don't accept your view, just as most do not mine. We are to prove everything, and we are to make correct judgement - I Cor 1:10. Doing so is not legalistic.
​

 

[feedm3]

I never called you legalistic, you're grasping at straws. In fact the only time I mentioned Legalism was in reference to the original post.

I know, and I was talking to the guy that made the comment, and you jumped in, so figured you agreed with the "legalistic" statements, because you said the guy preaching was. "grasping at straws" no, assuming a little, yea.

If you don't think I am a legalist for not accepting instruments, good then that does not apply to you, and sorry for assuming that.

 

[GuyforChrist85]

Wow bit defensive how? If you noticed he said listen, which probably means the actual audio sermon at the top. Not everything in this thread is centered around you believe it or not. And yes the audio sermon is very legalistic, it comes from a very legalistic man.

Yeah, I just now read the majority of the actual thread. I was referring to the audio sermon in the first post. =)

Yeah same old worn out argument of legalism. Yet I never said anything the Bible did not. Nor did I say you must accept what I believe. Thats everyone choice. What the difference if I say your wrong, and you say I am wrong? Wheres the legalism?

Was Paul legalistic? Read Rom 16:17, I Cor 1:10, Gal 1:8-9, II Thess 3:6.

It's not legalism for one to believe I must worship exactly how God says so. It's not legalism if I feel it's a sin to do so. Either way it's a sin for me. Even if God does not care, if I feel it is a sin, and do it just because everyone else is, it is sin for me.

I was commenting on the sermon the OP posted, he came to me telling me I am wrong, so does that make him legalistic as well? Actually if one does not agree with your views, that makes them a legalist in your eyes, that fits the definition more than me feeling it is sin to add to the word. You feel we should all believe what you believe, if not, then I am a legalistic.

This is what's old, the same old legalistic type comments, yet you all do exactly what you condemn, try to bind your opinion.
Because if I don't believe it's okay to use instruments like you do, then I am labeled by you as a legalist. Talk about hypocrisy.

I'm not condemning, I'm actually doing exactly the opposite. You are free to worship however you see fit, and I'm free to worship my God how I see fit, as he sees my heart. If you feel God thinks instruments are evil, then by all means stay away from them.

"Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does."

Trying to convence others that instruments are bad because the NT simply says "sing" is an extremely narrow-minded view though.

What I do have a problem with is people like this pastor who twists scripture to fit his warped views and attacks other ministries because they do not fit the mold for what he believes. The pastor in that sermon, and his followers are the ones whom condemn. I googed his name and found out he threw a big hissy fit over this: Shout to the Lord - YouTube That music is absolutely beautiful and from God in every way. Look at the heathens hold the instuments of evil! Completely rediculous. Here is a good article about thisIs Shout to the Lord the Issue?

What is a pastor doing condemning another church for something as trival as that anyways? Seriously, I think our world has bigger problems than this.

 

[Jordache]

You know, we just need to learn when to shut our mouths. Such judgement bein passed between brothers in Christ is sad to see because judgement is not consistent with love and love is the greatest command - a NT command. They shall know us by our love, but if a non-Christian person read this
blog, who thinks theyd see love.
I believe I using all of your talents to glorify God. These talents include playing musical instrument AND singing. My brother belongs to a church that believes the opposite. Guess what?! We both love Jesus.

 

[Jordache]

Question: someone was demanding the other to prove that pizza wasn't allowed to be used for taking communion because it was not mentioned. The argument being that just because it's not mentioned doesnt make it wrong. By the same token, how are instruments wrong if your only argument is that they are not mentioned?
Why about the descriptions John gives of the instruments in heaven? Why were instruments ok in the OT, will be ok in heaven, but are banned from the present?
Consider this: the Greek term used in all those quoted scriptures is psalmoi which literally means songs sung to a harp or stringed instrument.
Worship has little to do with method. When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, she asked about a location of worship. This locatio was a method to
The Jews and Samaritans. True worship amounted to worshipping in the right place. But Jesus set her straight. He told her worship was about spirit and truth. And true worshippers worshipped in spirit and truth. Our spirit is made new upon salvation. It is the core from which we worship. But the truth is, we are unworthy in and of ourselves without the redemption of our spirit man. This is the truth, or one of them. Worship is about
communication. It's about glorifying an almighty God. Can an instrument lead to showing off? Certainly, but have you ever met a real singer. I sing. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a great singer. I also lead worship. I do solos. I ad lib. I pray prophetically. But I do these things all out of my spirit man, all I truth, and all for Gods glory. I also play piano and work with many professional musicians. If we have a talent we must use it to
glorify God, but that doesn't mean you hide and blend. That means, of you are doing a solo, you use your solo to communicate honor to the Lord. Music is just one more language.

 

[feedm3]

Yeah, I just now read the majority of the actual thread. I was referring to the audio sermon in the first post. =)



I'm not condemning, I'm actually doing exactly the opposite. You are free to worship however you see fit, and I'm free to worship my God how I see fit, as he sees my heart. If you feel God thinks instruments are evil, then by all means stay away from them.

"Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does."

Trying to convence others that instruments are bad because the NT simply says "sing" is an extremely narrow-minded view though.

What I do have a problem with is people like this pastor who twists scripture to fit his warped views and attacks other ministries because they do not fit the mold for what he believes. The pastor in that sermon, and his followers are the ones whom condemn. I googed his name and found out he threw a big hissy fit over this: Shout to the Lord - YouTube That music is absolutely beautiful and from God in every way. Look at the heathens hold the instuments of evil! Completely rediculous. Here is a good article about thisIs Shout to the Lord the Issue?

What is a pastor doing condemning another church for something as trival as that anyways? Seriously, I think our world has bigger problems than this.

Its not narrow minded to only do what the Bible says. Yet I appreciate how you handled your position, your not attacking me. I do believe it's wrong, for me and others. I know what you mean about the guy in the sermon, I agree he was twisting passages.

Question: someone was demanding the other to prove that pizza wasn't allowed to be used for taking communion because it was not mentioned. The argument being that just because it's not mentioned doesnt make it wrong. By the same token, how are instruments wrong if your only argument is that they are not mentioned?

Yes that was me. I told him that because of the argument he used to make them right, the Bible doent say not to do so. That opens the door for many other things.

God does care how we worship, he has never left it up to us. THere is always a pattern to follow.

He also destroyed Nadab and Abihu for "offering strange fire" that He never said was acceptable. Just because he did not say "dont offer this", was no excuse for them adding to the worship God holds as sanctified. - Lev 10:1-2

Why about the descriptions John gives of the instruments in heaven?

Symbolical, as with the rest of that chapter and book.

Why were instruments ok in the OT, will be ok in heaven, but are banned from the present?

I explained above why they were used in the OT, just the same reason literall lambs and incencse were offered. They foreshadowed the NT. In the NT it is spiritual, no lambs, no animals, no incense, all were replaced - Heb 10:1-f., Col 2:14-f.

now we are to worship in Spirit and in truth. Yet it's not like I am going from church to church throwing out peoples instruments. But yes I see it as adding to the worship. I also see in other area's God does not allow that. My point to some on here is, just because I believe it's wrong, and just because I speak about to others, does not mean I am a legalist. Of course I do try to persuade others to see what the Bible says about it. If they choose not to, I dont start condemning them to hell, but if I belive it is a sin, and say nothing, then how can I say I love my fellow man?

Consider this: the Greek term used in all those quoted scriptures is psalmoi which literally means songs sung to a harp or stringed instrument.

Yes I have heard that argument before. The fact is that is a wrong definition of the word Psallo. It means simply "to pluck".

What is being plucked is determined by the context. It could be speaking of plucking an instrument, if mentioned along with it, or plucking a carpenters line.

It depends on what is being plucked. In Eph and Col, it is the "heart" that is being plucked. Literally it reads to pluck the strings of the heart. This is in accordance with worshiping "In spirit", and using the "heart" to make our melody.

The term in Eph, "making MELODY(PSALLO) in the heart to the Lord". "MELODY" is Psallo. SO it says "plucking the string in the heart".

The definitions that say "to pluck an instrument" are adding "instrument" for clarification, it's not part of the definition. Like if I was to define immersion - to dip or plunge, to plunge in water or dye. But when immersion is found, the context tells us if, water, dye, oil, just the same with Psallo. Simply means "to pluck" and in the context, the "heart" is what is being plucked.

Worship has little to do with method. When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, she asked about a location of worship. This locatio was a method to
The Jews and Samaritans. True worship amounted to worshiping in the right place. But Jesus set her straight. He told her worship was about spirit and truth. And true worshipers worship in spirit and truth. Our spirit is made new upon salvation. It is the core from which we worship. But the truth is, we are unworthy in and of ourselves without the redemption of our spirit man. This is the truth, or one of them. Worship is about
communication. It's about glorifying an almighty God. Can an instrument lead to showing off? Certainly, but have you ever met a real singer. I sing. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a great singer. I also lead worship. I do solos. I ad lib. I pray prophetically. But I do these things all out of my spirit man, all I truth, and all for Gods glory. I also play piano and work with many professional musicians. If we have a talent we must use it to
glorify God, but that doesn't mean you hide and blend. That means, of you are doing a solo, you use your solo to communicate honor to the Lord. Music is just one more language.[

Your right, it is about glorifying and pleasing God, not us. Jesus did tell that to the woman at the well, which supports what I am saying. The location of worship, in Jerusalem not in Jerusalem, was not important anymore, the physical temple was not either, nor the laws and ordinances, because the true worshipers would now worship in spirit and in truth.

The temple now spiritually made up of Christians, not a physical place.
Same with the instruments, now we because we worship in spirit pluck the strings of the heart.

Though I don't agree, I appreciate your post, and points you brought out.

 

[adekruif]

First, I never told you anything.

I never said you did. I simply stated I will not let somebody tell me how to worship. That is different than saying you are trying to tell me how should worship.

Second, you go ahead and worship YOU see fit. Me too, and I see fit to only worship with authority from scripture. You don't have believe that, that's your choice.

I believe the same as you...I think

I believe if we add to what is written it is a sin, because I believe certain passages that say so.

Agreed

Yet again, you can believe what you want. Does not mean I have to accept what you believe so not to be legalistic, just as I am sure you don't accept what I believe. So what?

In the end, either it does not matter, or it does. I know for sure It is not a sin for NOT to use instruments. I know I am commanded to sing. I know I am commanded ONLY to in word (teach) or deed (practice) by the authority of Christ - Col 3:17.
So if I cant find authority for it, I will not do it.

I believe some things are a matter of expediency, to carry out the command given. Like Meeting on the first day of the week. We are commanded by implication to do so.

But we are not told what time, what place, indoors, outdoors, all these are expedient to carrying out the command.

Instruments I dont see as an expedient, but an addition. So I choose not to worship where their are instruments because I must be able to worship God with a good conscience.

Ok, that's your decision. Aboce you said it is a sin to add to what is already written. The other side of that is you can't throw out certain passages of scripture you don't like. Agree? Well then what do you say about Psalm 147:7?


Sing to the LORD with thanksgiving;
Sing praises to our God on the lyre,

I don't know about you but that sure seems like a command to use instruments....



This does not make me legalistic. Cautious if anything. Defiantly not a legalistic, even if I don't accept your view, just as most do not mine. We are to prove everything, and we are to make correct judgement - I Cor 1:10. Doing so is not legalistic.
​

And we don't have to prove everything. If we did, we would all be stuck for the rest of our lives trying to prove that Jesus is real. There is something called faith....I don't have to prove everything....I can just trust! We are called to know the Bible, and interpret the Bible, and act out what we believe, but that is different than proving things.

 

[niceguyJ]

This thread is foolish and has great potential to be an endless argument.

*Gump voice* ...and that's all I have to say about that.

 

[feedm3]

And we don't have to prove everything. If we did, we would all be stuck for the rest of our lives trying to prove that Jesus is real. There is something called faith....I don't have to prove everything....I can just trust! We are called to know the Bible, and interpret the Bible, and act out what we believe, but that is different than proving things.

Yea, your on a whole other topic. I never said we must prove our faith, were talking about worship here, and we are to 'prove" as in make sure what were doing is right - Col 3:17

I Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good

 

[feedm3]

This thread is foolish and has great potential to be an endless argument.

*Gump voice* ...and that's all I have to say about that.

Discussing the scripture is never foolish. I am glad you "Gumped" out - lol

 

[Nautilus]

Discussing the scripture is never foolish. I am glad you "Gumped" out - lol

well its not really discussing, you ignore things in the OT others dont. I dont see a discussion progressing anywhere.

 

[feedm3]

well its not really discussing, you ignore things in the OT others dont. I dont see a discussion progressing anywhere.

No, ignoring would be pretending they are not there. I answered why they are in the OT several times, with many scripture to support what I am saying. So it seems you are the only one ignoring here, obviously my answers.

Scroll up, go back a page whatever, I answered over and over the reason they were allowed in the OT.
So if I answer them, how is it ignoring them, even if you don't agree with my answers?

If you don't see this discussion going anywhere, I am not making you comment, you can go at anytime.

 

[Jullianna]

“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." John 15:12

Let us worship Him in loving obedience and remember the Spirit we are of.

 

[PopClick]

Has anyone seen Romans 14 around here? I can't seem to find it.

 

[Jullianna]

Here it is, Popclick! I was reading it yesterday and forgot to put back! hugs!

Romans 14



14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.