Warnings about Contemporary Praise Music by David Cloud
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Concerning the sermon, the reason for the "entertainment" among "churches" is because they are not following scripture when its comes to worship.
Entertainment like this is a common ramification from the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship.
The NT never says to play instruments, there is no example of the early church doing so, and their is not any valid inference that any church ever used them.
Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does.
We sing to please God, not to entertain ourselves. When we go beyond what is written, and add things to our worship that are pleasing to us, this is where it leads, full blown concerts, deemed as "worship".
Entertainment like this is a common ramification from the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship.
The NT never says to play instruments, there is no example of the early church doing so, and their is not any valid inference that any church ever used them.
Col 3:16, Eph 5:19, we are told to sing, and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. NOT play, dance, etc, but sing. It does not say NOT to play, yet we do not get our authority from what the Bible does NOT say, but from what it does.
We sing to please God, not to entertain ourselves. When we go beyond what is written, and add things to our worship that are pleasing to us, this is where it leads, full blown concerts, deemed as "worship".
Did you miss Psalm 150? Not specifically about church services, but definitely about praise. Or are you suggesting that we shouldn't praise in our church services, but only in our own alone time?
Psalm 150
1Praise the Lord.a
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
6Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.
Psalm 150
1Praise the Lord.a
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
6Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.
F
Nope, didn't miss it, yet I realize that it was under a different law and covenant. Did you miss Col chapter 2? That reveals to us that the Law has been nailed to the cross.
So what is was used in the OT? Do you also feel it is okay to sacrifice animals and burn incense at altars?
The OT was physical, the NT is spiritual, we dont sacrifice a lamb, Jesus did that. We don't burn instance, we pray. We dont make melody with a physical instrument, we do it spiritually with the heart.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
If those under the NT are termed as the "true worshippers" that implies that before they were not the permanent image of what God wanted. They were the physical symbolization of the true image that comes only in the NT. So why would we use those under a shadow (Heb 10) to justify what we can or cannot do under the NT?
Using the OT for authority in the NT is not how we are to use the word properly. Otherwise you open the door for all kinds of things.
So what is was used in the OT? Do you also feel it is okay to sacrifice animals and burn incense at altars?
The OT was physical, the NT is spiritual, we dont sacrifice a lamb, Jesus did that. We don't burn instance, we pray. We dont make melody with a physical instrument, we do it spiritually with the heart.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
If those under the NT are termed as the "true worshippers" that implies that before they were not the permanent image of what God wanted. They were the physical symbolization of the true image that comes only in the NT. So why would we use those under a shadow (Heb 10) to justify what we can or cannot do under the NT?
Using the OT for authority in the NT is not how we are to use the word properly. Otherwise you open the door for all kinds of things.
F
Okay and find me where it says I cannot use pizza for the Lord's supper. Also find me where it says I cannot use animal sacriice during a service. Can you please do that?
I don't need a scripture that tells me NOT to do it, when I have scripture that tells me how to do it. Do you go to McDonalds and order a number meal, and then tell them all the numbers you dont want?
When God told Noah build thee an ark out of gopher wood, did he have to name every wood their was that Noah could not use?
Of course not, the command "gopher wood" excluded all other types of wood. Just as the command "sing" excludes all other things like "play" "dance" - just Sing.
So we see the argument is not weak, because you are trying to say we can do things as long as the Bible did not say anything about it.
That is foolish. So the whole "cult" thing is just what people say when they cant find scriptural support for the things they like to add to worship.
So can we use pizza for the Lords supper? If not why not, the Bible does not say not to use it?
The Bible does tells us to sing, so I know that is not a sin, yet to argue from silence is weak, because now your going to have show why we cant use pizza, without saying because Jesus told us what to use, because that's not consistent. So whats your argument against that?
Here is more proof that silence is binding:
God said a priest could only come from the tribe of Levi, this excluded all other tribes.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood
The fact that Moses spoke NOTHING concerning Juda and priesthood, showed that priesthood could NOT come from Juda. He did not have to specifically say that, the fact he said it would come from Levi, already excluded any other. Same with the NT commands, the command given excludes anything else, it does not have to mentioned.
God in the NT speaks NOTHING of playing, so why is that you feel we are at liberty to add what God did not specifically forbade, if God gave us the command or what we are to do - Sing.
Jesus told us what to use for the lord's supper, he did not have specifically forbade every other type of food we cannot use. When he said unleavened bread, it exluced ALL other types of foods.
But you want the specific comamd that says YOU cannot use.....You not going to find it. ANd that is a weak method of interpretation, because you will not be able to remain consistent.
IF I am wrong, prove me wrong, can we use pizza? If not, why not?
I don't need a scripture that tells me NOT to do it, when I have scripture that tells me how to do it. Do you go to McDonalds and order a number meal, and then tell them all the numbers you dont want?
When God told Noah build thee an ark out of gopher wood, did he have to name every wood their was that Noah could not use?
Of course not, the command "gopher wood" excluded all other types of wood. Just as the command "sing" excludes all other things like "play" "dance" - just Sing.
So we see the argument is not weak, because you are trying to say we can do things as long as the Bible did not say anything about it.
That is foolish. So the whole "cult" thing is just what people say when they cant find scriptural support for the things they like to add to worship.
So can we use pizza for the Lords supper? If not why not, the Bible does not say not to use it?
The Bible does tells us to sing, so I know that is not a sin, yet to argue from silence is weak, because now your going to have show why we cant use pizza, without saying because Jesus told us what to use, because that's not consistent. So whats your argument against that?
Here is more proof that silence is binding:
God said a priest could only come from the tribe of Levi, this excluded all other tribes.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood
The fact that Moses spoke NOTHING concerning Juda and priesthood, showed that priesthood could NOT come from Juda. He did not have to specifically say that, the fact he said it would come from Levi, already excluded any other. Same with the NT commands, the command given excludes anything else, it does not have to mentioned.
God in the NT speaks NOTHING of playing, so why is that you feel we are at liberty to add what God did not specifically forbade, if God gave us the command or what we are to do - Sing.
Jesus told us what to use for the lord's supper, he did not have specifically forbade every other type of food we cannot use. When he said unleavened bread, it exluced ALL other types of foods.
But you want the specific comamd that says YOU cannot use.....You not going to find it. ANd that is a weak method of interpretation, because you will not be able to remain consistent.
IF I am wrong, prove me wrong, can we use pizza? If not, why not?
I'm sorry my friend, but I won't accept this opinion. "The OT was physical" is a gross over-generalization. There is much in the NT that is also physical (Matthew 25, just off the top of my head). It is about what we do that that praises God.
Also, I'm confused by your reference to worship when we are on the topic of praise. To me they have always been two different things (they are different words). To me, and who I read and interpret, worship is a matter of reverence, praise is a matter of thankfulness.
Also, I'm confused by your reference to worship when we are on the topic of praise. To me they have always been two different things (they are different words). To me, and who I read and interpret, worship is a matter of reverence, praise is a matter of thankfulness.
Clearly you missed or more likely conveniently ignored Sure we can sacrifice animals...why not I mena it might be pointless but we can do it all we want. I never said sacrificing animals would be of any benefit but its still doable just as doable as opening a door or plucking a guitar string. And I have no desire to ask what you believe. I have seen and heard plenty about the 'church of Christ' a term i use loosely, to know that i dont ever want to hear more. So you can continue to try to tell me im wrong and that music in church is bad, and that baptism is necessary to be saved, but in the end youre just talking to yourself at this point.
J
2 Samuel 6
6 David again brought together all the able young men of Israel—thirty thousand. 2 He and all his men went to Baalah in Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the Lord Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim on the ark. 3 They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.
6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.
8 Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.[e]
9 David was afraid of the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord ever come to me?” 10 He was not willing to take the ark of the Lord to be with him in the City of David. Instead, he took it to the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite. 11 The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed him and his entire household.
12 Now King David was told, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God.” So David went to bring up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13 When those who were carrying the ark of the Lord had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14 Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might,15 while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart.
17 They brought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the Lord. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”
21 David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the Lord. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.”
23And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
(Michal had to learn the hard way not to criticize how the children of God expressed their love for Him and His holiness. )
6 David again brought together all the able young men of Israel—thirty thousand. 2 He and all his men went to Baalah in Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the Lord Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim on the ark. 3 They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.
6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.
8 Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.[e]
9 David was afraid of the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord ever come to me?” 10 He was not willing to take the ark of the Lord to be with him in the City of David. Instead, he took it to the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite. 11 The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed him and his entire household.
12 Now King David was told, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God.” So David went to bring up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13 When those who were carrying the ark of the Lord had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14 Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might,15 while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart.
17 They brought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the Lord. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”
21 David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the Lord. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.”
23And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
(Michal had to learn the hard way not to criticize how the children of God expressed their love for Him and His holiness. )
F
Yeah same old worn out argument of legalism. Yet I never said anything the Bible did not. Nor did I say you must accept what I believe. Thats everyone choice. What the difference if I say your wrong, and you say I am wrong? Wheres the legalism?
Was Paul legalistic? Read Rom 16:17, I Cor 1:10, Gal 1:8-9, II Thess 3:6.
It's not legalism for one to believe I must worship exactly how God says so. It's not legalism if I feel it's a sin to do so. Either way it's a sin for me. Even if God does not care, if I feel it is a sin, and do it just because everyone else is, it is sin for me.
I was commenting on the sermon the OP posted, he came to me telling me I am wrong, so does that make him legalistic as well? Actually if one does not agree with your views, that makes them a legalist in your eyes, that fits the definition more than me feeling it is sin to add to the word. You feel we should all believe what you believe, if not, then I am a legalistic.
This is what's old, the same old legalistic type comments, yet you all do exactly what you condemn, try to bind your opinion.
Because if I don't believe it's okay to use instruments like you do, then I am labeled by you as a legalist. Talk about hypocrisy.
Was Paul legalistic? Read Rom 16:17, I Cor 1:10, Gal 1:8-9, II Thess 3:6.
It's not legalism for one to believe I must worship exactly how God says so. It's not legalism if I feel it's a sin to do so. Either way it's a sin for me. Even if God does not care, if I feel it is a sin, and do it just because everyone else is, it is sin for me.
I was commenting on the sermon the OP posted, he came to me telling me I am wrong, so does that make him legalistic as well? Actually if one does not agree with your views, that makes them a legalist in your eyes, that fits the definition more than me feeling it is sin to add to the word. You feel we should all believe what you believe, if not, then I am a legalistic.
This is what's old, the same old legalistic type comments, yet you all do exactly what you condemn, try to bind your opinion.
Because if I don't believe it's okay to use instruments like you do, then I am labeled by you as a legalist. Talk about hypocrisy.
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