Why is it that God only chooses to save some people?

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H

HeftyFine

Guest
#22
I believe in Calvinism :) Used to think it was absurd but the more I thought about it the more it made logical sense.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#24
Well, it is the bible... not exactly like reading the Pokeylittle Puppy. Although, admittedly, I thought Calvinism was somewhat complicated as well until I understood it. Then I saw how wonderfully simple it is. As far as your last statement, I would request that you sustantiate that scripturally.









Verse 16 is no challenge to Calvinism. As to your underlining "the world", it might be a good idea if we start letting the bible define it's own terms, instead of placing into it our desired outcomes. ;)



Does every verse have to say it? No where in the bible will you find the word "trinity", do you still believe the trinity is scriptural?



I can do this whole mis-reading and removing from context thing too.




Is everyone Justified? Is everyone going to receive eternal life?



Every kind of coveting? Really? Do you really think he coveted over a Corvette?



What about my mother? Do you think Paul coveted over my father's wife? It says, "every"...


Does God give us "all" things? When Paul was writing, he was referring to a specific group (hencec, "us")... Did God give them Corvettes?


Did Solomon believe, that God was meaningless? Is the Cross meaningless?



All the truth? Did the Holy Spirit guide them to the truth about Christian Chat? Steam Engines? The political policies of David Cameron? The future winning lottery tickets? "No, but.." Hey! It says, "all".

They had EVERYTHING in common? They shared spouses?


Everything? Well, of course you don't believe this, otherwise that would make you a Calvy. :p


What about this verse? I'm sure you disagree with the first all statement, and the last. Oh deary me.

Really? Does our faith allow us to eat the SUN?

Is all food clean? What about if we drop something on the floor?


(some translations have this verse diff) All knowledge? Really?

Is he the Savior of all people? Do all people go to heaven? Are all people in union with Christ?


Really? All will see their progress?



The feet of ALL the saints? For all the afflicted? For EVERY good work? Did she donate money to the Salvation Army? Did she run a Relay for Life?

In the presence of ALL? Will EVERYONE be there?



Yup. Why is that they don't want to? That's what you have to answer to understand what is being said.



Proverbs 16
4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

... 9 The heart of man plans his way,
but the LORD establishes his steps

33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

God is not to blame. Don't blaspheme.



Don't confuse the terms here bud. Total Depravity is a result of the fall (gen 3).


I don't see what is supposed to be the problem here.



See the above verses about "all".


EDIT:
Oh, it appears you overlooked verse 11 in Isaiah 53.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
And the word of the day is "Rubbish."
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#25
Lil_Christian...

Does our faith allow us to eat the sun?

Romans 14:2
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#26
Lil_Christian...

Does our faith allow us to eat the sun?

Romans 14:2
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
I can't speak for your faith.

But I can speak for mine. And for me I say yes.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#27
I can't speak for your faith.



Lil_Christian said:
But I can speak for mine. And for me I say yes.
Why haven't you yet? Does your faith allow you to eat God?


Acts 2:44
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.

Did they have EVERYTHING in common?
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#28
Well, it is the bible... not exactly like reading the Pokeylittle Puppy. Although, admittedly, I thought Calvinism was somewhat complicated as well until I understood it. Then I saw how wonderfully simple it is. As far as your last statement, I would request that you sustantiate that scripturally.









Verse 16 is no challenge to Calvinism. As to your underlining "the world", it might be a good idea if we start letting the bible define it's own terms, instead of placing into it our desired outcomes. ;)
...Dude. It's in the BIBLE. For GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD. The Word has spoken for itself.

Does every verse have to say it? No where in the bible will you find the word "trinity", do you still believe the trinity is scriptural?
Has the Father, has the Son, has the Holy Spirit. It's Scriptural.

I can do this whole mis-reading and removing from context thing too.
....DUDE! What the heck did I even take out of context? I did my homework on each of those chapters. I looked at context. You got nothin' on me.


Is everyone Justified? Is everyone going to receive eternal life?
No. Only who believe will be saved. And every one of us have the chance to grab the hand that's reaching out to save us.


God is not to blame. Don't blaspheme.
I didn't.


Thank you Jim Calvin for givin' me a whole lotta nothin'.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#29
Why haven't you yet?
What? Ok now that's being judgmental.

You can't speak for my faith and I can't speak for yours. But I know that Jesus loves me...and that He is the Good Samaritan that comes and offers all of us help. Each and every one of us. We just have to say yes.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#30
...Dude. It's in the BIBLE. For GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD. The Word has spoken for itself.
Yeah, it says the word "World" but why not let the bible define it's own terms?



Has the Father, has the Son, has the Holy Spirit. It's Scriptural.
Find the word "trinity" in the bible, will ya'?



....DUDE! What the heck did I even take out of context? I did my homework on each of those chapters. I looked at context. You got nothin' on me.
John 3:16 is the most abused prooftext out there. John 3:16 is not saying, what you're trying to make it say. IT simply states that those who (savingly) believe will have eternal life, it makes no mention of how one comes to belief. It's not what you're trying to make it out to be.




No. Only who believe will be saved. And every one of us have the chance to grab the hand that's reaching out to save us.
That's a problem for Calvinism, how?




Thank you Jim Calvin for givin' me a whole lotta nothin'.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#31
What? Ok now that's being judgmental.
All I asked is why you have yet to eat the sun. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but words are worth so much more than a picture.




You can't speak for my faith and I can't speak for yours. But I know that Jesus loves me...and that He is the Good Samaritan that comes and offers all of us help. Each and every one of us. We just have to say yes.
I wasn't speaking about what your position is in concerns to the strength of your faith. Rather, I am asking what is the reason for why you have yet to eat the sun.



Now answer my question.

Acts 2:44
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.

Did they have EVERYTHING in common?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#33
You'd have to ask them not me.
So, did the Apostle Paul let everyone else take turns riding his rocket ship? Did they take turns sharing spouses?



zooooommmmm

Romans 14:2
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Does your faith allow you to eat God?

ecclesiastes 1:2

2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”



Is everything meaningless?
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#34
I seriously haven't gotten to Acts yet, and I'm really busy this week so I don't have time digging up answers for your questions. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#35
I seriously haven't gotten to Acts yet, and I'm really busy this week so I don't have time digging up answers for your questions.
You don't haave to have read acts to understand that Paul and the early Christians didn't have rocket ships to "Have in common". I've not read Acts fully either.

You also don't have to have read Acts to be able to recognize that you can't eat the Sun, or God.



I didn't want to admit that the usage of the word "all" an it's related synonyms are defined by their context. You'll have to admit then, that...

11 In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

God works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, including a persons being saved or damned.

I really don't think you want to admit that.

So what are you going to do? Re-define terms? Say everything doesn't always mean everything? Wait, no, you can't do that. Then you'd be just like me, saying, "the usage of terms are defined by their context".


I hope you had a good Thanksgiving
It was alright, but thanks for hoping!
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#36
11 In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

God works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, including a persons being saved or damned.

I really don't think you want to admit that.
It really seems that it limits what Jesus did on the cross for us. That even though everything was finished on the cross, and gave us freedom, we're still bound.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#37
It really seems that it limits what Jesus did on the cross for us. That even though everything was finished on the cross, and gave us freedom, we're still bound.
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are stating here, so if you could kindly further explain what your attempting to explain that would be greatly appreciated. It will allow for me to make a more proper response. If not, I understand and will attempt to do my best.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#38
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are stating here, so if you could kindly further explain what your attempting to explain that would be greatly appreciated. It will allow for me to make a more proper response. If not, I understand and will attempt to do my best.
When Jesus died on the cross for us, Jesus broke sin's curse, freed us from condemnation, and man wouldn't have to be separated from God. I forget where...but when Jesus died, that curtain was ripped (I totally forget what the curtain was called...all I know is that only priests could go beyond it, and even then it was only once a year. And when Jesus died, that was ripped. And that separated God and Sin...and so Jesus is now what separates God and Sin.), and we've all been Redeemed, but it still takes a relationship with Jesus to get into heaven. Hell was never a place intended for God to send certain people. He knocked Satan outta Heaven and He made what is the total opposite of Heaven: Hell. Why? Satan didn't acknowledge God as Supreme Authority and Satan himself tried to even overthrow God.

Calvinists say that God chooses who goes to hell, and who doesn't...and so that seems to weaken the power of what Jesus did for man for me.
 

G4JC

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2011
668
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#39
God is in control of everything, he knows the future. Why is it that he only chooses to save certain people?
Let me just KISS (Keep It Short and Simple) this statement and say that whilst God knows what choice they will make, he will not control which path they will take. God will not overtake a persons free-will, furthermore if you decide to leave God you can.

OSAS (Once Save Always Saved) dogma and New-Calvinism theology states that if you want to live a sinful life and think you are elected for heaven - You Are! No need for repentance and forgiveness of sin bro. your in.

So simply, God, in effort of not creating mindless zombies, has offered his free gift to everyone - but only you and I can accept it for ourselves. He can draw people via the use of His Word, tracts, and evangelism, but it is a man's heart that is required to change on it's own. Everyone must make this choice.

Calvinism pretty much states, God dictates the one for heaven and hell. Some are simply "elected"/damned for Hell, so we don't even need to witness to them. There are varying levels of Calvinism so each Calvinism may tell you a varying story - but it all boils down to sinners saved by God's sovereign grace, with no real need to live a sinless life and be like Christ. While God does have sovereign grace, we must realize that this does not mean living in sin and continuing in sin as a Christian....

Now let's fill you in on the TULIP...
THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM
THE “REFORMED” DOCTRINES OF DOOM AND GLOOM

by George Bryson

The First Point
The first side (the positive side) of the first point of Calvinism is that if you are one of those elected for salvation you will one day (in this life) inevitably be born again before the final judgment. When you are born again you will be given a new nature. As your old nature was an unbelieving nature so your new nature will be a believing nature. Here is how it unfolds. As a new born child of God you will (as a result of your new birth) believe in Jesus Christ. Because (and when) you believe in Jesus Christ you will be declared righteous and be guaranteed a place among the resurrection of the just‐and at that time glorified for all eternity.
The second side (the negative or doom and gloom side) of the first point is that if you are not one of the elect, you will not and cannot be born again. Here is how it unfolds. Because you are not born again and will forever be stuck with your unbelieving nature you will not and cannot believe in Jesus Christ. Because you cannot believe in Jesus Christ in your unregenerate condition, you will not be justified. If you are not justified you will eventually be raised with the unjust, and finally be sentenced to everlasting shame and torment. This too is according to God’s sovereign will and good pleasure.
The Second Point
The first side (the positive side) of the second point of Calvinism is that if God has chosen you for salvation He did so unconditionally. You do not have to believe to become chosen for salvation but you were chosen and created for salvation and so you believe as a result of being elected and created for salvation.
The second side (the negative or doom and gloom side) of the second point is that if God has not chosen you for salvation‐meaning He has chosen you for damnation‐He did so unconditionally. You were chosen, decreed, and created for damnation. You cannot believe and are therefore damned for your unbelief because this is according to God’s sovereign will and for His glory and good pleasure.

The Third Point
The first side (the positive side) of the third point of Calvinism is that if you were chosen and created for salvation, Christ died for your sins so that the eternal decree for salvation would have an historical provision for salvation.
The second side (the negative or doom and gloom side) of the third point of Calvinism is that if you were not chosen and created for salvation‐meaning you were chosen and created for damnation‐ Christ did not die for your sins because an eternal decree for damnation needs no historical provision for salvation.
The Fourth Point
The first side (the positive side) of the fourth doctrine is that if you were chosen and created for salvation, God will irresistibly draw or efficaciously call you (applying saving grace to your life and circumstance) to Himself, first giving you a new life, which in turn brings with it a new nature, which is a believing nature, resulting in your certain and immediate justification and eventual and everlasting glorification.
The second side (the negative and doom and gloom side) of the fourth doctrine is that if you were not chosen and created for salvation‐meaning that you were chosen and created for damnation‐you will not be irresistibly drawn, efficaciously called, and no saving grace will be extended to you, which means you will not and cannot be born again, which in turn means you cannot have faith in Christ and thereby be justified in this life or ultimately glorified in the next life. Instead you will suffer the torments of the everlasting lake of fire in accordance with the sovereign will of God because this is according to His good pleasure.

The Fifth Point

The first side (the positive side) of the fifth point of Calvinism is that if you were chosen and created for salvation, the new nature you receive when you are born again, and the saving faith that comes with that new nature, and the justification that immediately follows faith insures that you will live (however imperfectly) a sanctified, holy, or righteous life in faith (practically speaking) for the most part, from the time of your regeneration until the time of your glorification. This perseverance in sanctification, holiness, or righteousness in faith, while not perfect is inevitable for the truly born again and will be to the end of this life for the elect. It is not as though the elect should not fail to persevere (for the most part) but they cannot do so. If therefore a person appeared to be a saint earlier in life, but failed to persevere in faith and righteousness until the end of life, it proves he was never a saint or never born again, never had faith in Christ, and never had a holy and righteous life in faith to persevere in.
The second side (the negative and doom side) of the third point is that if you are not elect and created for salvation‐meaning you are elect and chosen for damnation‐you cannot be born again, have faith in Christ, live a holy or righteous life in faith for even one day, much less to the end of your life. Because God is sovereign and can do as He pleases with His creatures, God is free to mislead a person into thinking they are one of the elect, help them live much like the elect, but at the judgment reveal that they were convinced by God that they were one of the elect even though they were not. No matter how convinced someone is in thinking he is one of the elect, assurance of salvation and eternal life is impossible to secure. How could anyone
know for certain that they will persevere to the end proving they were elect without actually having persevered to the end. (FTC Note: John Calvin was certain beyond doubt that he was one of the elect because he was sprinkled with water as an infant. (Institutes, IV) What?)
After many years (actually decades) of studying the Calvinist doctrines of grace, I am convinced that the best refutation of the five points of Calvinism is an accurate and honest explanation of the five points of Calvinism. Unfortunately most new converts to Calvinism are not aware of the flip side to the five points of Calvinism early on. Those who introduce Calvinism to the non‐Calvinist believe that the new believer is not ready for the meatier stuff of Reformed theology. That, they say, should come only later when they can handle it. They reason that the positive side of each point is like simple arithmetic. The negative side is more like algebra or some other more complicated, difficult and higher form of math.
The truth is this; the negative side is not more difficult to understand for the new convert to Calvinism, it is more difficult to accept. The positive side seems more palatable whereas the negative side is difficult to swallow and some even choke on it. Full disclosure, early on and sometimes even later on, is a major hindrance to those committed to winning the non‐Calvinist over to Calvinism. Admittedly, sometimes proponents of Calvinism do not lay it all out on the table because they themselves have not turned the coin over to see what is on the other side. Sometimes they ignore it. Sometimes they deny it. They are on the Reformed road and are trying to get others to join them. However, they have not gone very far and sometimes do not choose to go but a few blocks down the Reformed road. Some would like to believe that the five points of Calvinism are only five points of grace. It is too much (for them) to think that these five points also represent a very hard and harsh message of doom and gloom.
The following added by FindingTheChurch.com
To the Church in Sardis (the “reformed” church)
1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of Him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of My God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Revelation 3:1‐6 (ESV)
Rather than saying Calvinism (God has elected everyone before the beginning of time), or Armenian (believes in man's free will, but has issues with Trinity(?)), I believe God knows the choices that will be played out in the end, but that we must decide them. Some may call this...
syn·er·gism (s
n
r-j
z
m)n.1. Synergy.
2. Christianity The doctrine that individual salvation is achieved through a combination of human will and divine grace.

[New Latin synergismus, from Greek sunergos, working together : sun-, syn- + ergon, work; see werg- in Indo-European roots.]

Ultimately, read your Bible and pray and ask God for yourself! It is very important to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
"If you have a Bible - READ IT. If you read the bible - BELIEVE IT. If you believe the bible - LIVE IT!"
 
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cherish

Guest
#40
Peace of our Lord JESUS be with you!
Okay it’s about your post. We are all GOD’s chosen people (please don’t debate). In 1 TIMOTHY2: 4 He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He sacrifice His self for us in 1 TIMOTHY2:6 says who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men the testimony given in its proper time and He also said in ROMANS 2 :11 For GOD doesn’t show favoritism. In 1 TIMOTHY 2:2 He is pertaining to spiritual knowledge. So that’s the work of Christians to evangelize people, reaching people for CHRIST. Let them know about the knowledge of the truth and who is the truth? GOD says in HIS word in JOHN 14:6 I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO COMES FROM THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. Let the men know that there is GOD who created this all things, who does the wondrous works and most especially who died for us. IT’S GOOD NEWS! He says in His word in 2 TIMOTHY 4:2 PREACH THE WORD! BE RADY IN SEASON AND OUT OF SEASON. CONVINCE, REBUKE, EXHORT, WILL LONG SUFFERING AND TEACHING. So that they will not subject to ignorance GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD IN HOSEA 4:6 MY PEOPLE ARE DESTROYED FROM LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.”BECAUSE YOU HAVE REJECTED KNOWLEDGE, I ALSO REJECT YOU AS MY PRIEST, BECAUSE YOU HAVE IGNORED THE LAW OF GOD, I ALSO WILL IGNORE YOUR CHILDREN. In ROMANS 10:14 HOW THEN, CAN THEY CALL ON THE ONE THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED IN ? AND HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE IN THE ONE OF WHOM THEY HAVE NOT HEARD? AND HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? Its A CHALLENGE FOR US CHRISTIAN AS ACHRISTIAN .So we have this question, how about if they won’t believe? …..so…. they are not a chosen people. GOD IS INDEED A GOOD GOD. He gives us the freewill or a freedom of choice so it’s up to you the decision. GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD IN MATTHEW 7:13-14 ENTER THROUGH THE NARROW GATE. FOR WIDE IS THE GATE AND BROAD IS THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION, AND MANY ENTER THROUGH IT. BUT SMALL IS THE GATE AND NARROW THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO LIFE AND ONLY A FEW FIND IT. SO IT’S UP TO YOU OR THE PEOPLE WHETHER THEY WILL ENTER THE NARROW OR THE WIDE GATES. GOD is waiting for our response after we know HIM in REVELATION 3:20 SAYS: HERE I AM! I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK. IF ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR, I WILL COME IN AND EAT WITH HIM, AND HE WITH ME. But sadly, there are people who ignore HIM or did not response to HIM in ROMANS 1:21 FOR ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW GOD, THEY NEITHER GLORIFIED HIM AS GOD NOR GAVE THANKS TO HIM, BUT THEIR THINKING BECAME FUTILE AND THEIR FOOLISH HEARTS WERE DARKENED. So GOD gave them over to a debased mind. So GOD will gonna tolerate them. IN ROMANS 1:28 FURTHERMORE, SINCE THEY DID NOT THINK IT WORTHWHILE TO RETAIN IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, HE GAVE THEM OVER TO A DEPRAVED MIND, TO DO WHAT OUGHT TO BE DONE.
GOD BLESSES!!..................................