I'm struggling with sexual purity

EmethAlethia · Sep 14, 2014

Riv,

I am sorry, I missed the part where I indicated David had a thousand wives and concubines. That would be David. David had, I believe, 6 wives, and kids by 5, prior to committing adultery by taking the wife of a man still living.

While Solomon's having a 1000 wives and concubines, and not just looking at them naked, not just touching them naked, but having sex and kids with them, is not specifically about masturbation, we have already established that God said nothing at all about it in scripture. He did have a rather severe response to someone's refusal to raise up an heir, but that doesn't apply either. The issue is drawing the line where God draws it, and not say, figuring out how many paces we can walk on a high Sabbath verses a low Sabbath before we must set up a tent, and adding things that God doesn't say because we believe them to be true.

The issue is what does the word of God say and mean, and interpreting everything so that it is consistent with everything else. Consistent with the context, consistent with the meaning of words/root words as they are used throughout the scriptures, consistent with what God didn't say. If something did happen, and God says nothing, then God did not see a sin. For example, we cannot claim that Solomon committed adultery, for example. We cannot say that the lust of Solomon, while legendary, was sinful in any way. Why? Because God, and His word does not say so. We can say that we believe it to be so, but we cannot claim that God says so. It is a lie if we do, and we teach as doctrines of God, the doctrines of men, if we do so.

Stephen63 · Sep 14, 2014

EmethAlethia said:

Stephen,

While I understand your desire to make this passage support your beliefs, you will have to go through my earliest posts to get the Jewish, first century, meaning of the word adultery. The meaning of words used is essential. For example, while adultery is fornication, all fornication is not adultery. Fornication includes all kinds of unlawful intercourse. For example: Adultery, homosexuality, Bestiality, Pre-marital intercourse ... all of those. It is an issue of the meaning of words. We have a modern definition and understanding.

For example, if I take an additional wife, when do I commit adultery? The moment I sleep with my new wife, right? The problem is that that definition does not fit with God's. Do you realize that God has given a command that when you take an additional wife, you are not to decrease her marital rights(Right to sex), nor her support? Does God promote adultery? We already discussed the prophet who reproved David, and who gave David his wives, and Solomon who never committed adultery, or any "sexual" sin whatsoever, according to scripture, and yet indulged himself beyond the most lustful thoughts any man can think up.

You see, this is the background of the passage you bring up. Adultery, by God's definition, can only happen with a woman who is married to another living man. If the wording was "fornication" then we could "possibly" go where you are trying to go with this, but it's not. We can't change the meaning of words just because we want them to support what we believe with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and closing our eyes and ears to what is said and meant because we don't want to se or hear what God really has said, and really did mean, benefits no one. That said, let's look at the passage again:

Mat 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

There is only one word for "married woman" in Greek. Again,. don't trust me, look it up. Again, the only way to commit adultery, by God's definition, is with a woman who is married to another living man. Consistent, right? Does it say that every man who looks intently(Check the meaning of the words in Greek), at a married woman, to dwell in lust, is doing exactly what it says, committing adultery, not fornication, with her, in his heart.

God / Jesus could have used the word for maid, and used the word for fornication, and while we would then have a contradiction with 1 Cor. 7, I would have to concede that being in the same room and dwelling on lust with ANY woman would be committing "Fornication" with her in your heart. No one, at the time of the writing of this verse, would have taken it to mean other than it says though. Given the words used, we are talking ONLY about a specific type of fornication. We are only talking about a specific situation: That requiring you to be in the presence of a woman married to another man, and dwelling on lust when she is in your presence. You cannot do that when she is not there.

This is not to say that there wasn't "Dirty" "artwork", paintings, pictures ... around all over the ancient world. If you look at the honest histories, the world was full of it at the time of Christ, and before. You just don't see mention of it. The issue is, what does it say, what does it mean? Is this actual adultery for which the men practicing it should be stoned? Is Jesus saying that they are committing adultery? No. This is a heart issue. Just for the record, this is wrong. This should never be done.

It is the same as the anger and murder thing. Can you ever commit adultery(With a woman married to another living man), and never have been in the same room dwelling on lust with her? The answer is no. Can you ever commit premeditated murder without fist dwelling on your anger against the person you are planning to murder? These things are "Playing with things GOD DOES SAY ARE SIN.". And while they are not stoning offenses, they show the "heart" of the person doing them.

Are there any passages that, in context, holding to a meaning of words consistent with how those same words are used throughout scripture, and consistent with everything God says, didn't say, did, didn't do ... that even discuss pornography, or, in this day and age, the sin of looking at dirty artwork?

Again, if God says nothing, I say nothing. If God says little, I say little. If He shouts from the housetops, I shout as well. My goal is not to "Alter" the meaning to have it fit my beliefs, but to interpret everything so that everything fits with everything else. If there appears to be a contradiction, the problem is with our beliefs, and forcing interpretations to support them. Our beliefs and interpretations are in error. God is consistent. Godly men and women are consistent. When God says THIS IS SIN, it is, and He reproves it. I understand your desire to have passages fit your beliefs. I really do. Changing their meaning to fit what you want to believe is just as good for you as it is for everyone else in the world who does it to make the scriptures prove their beliefs to be true. Do you love truth enough to force them to conform to truth, or will you force the truth to conform to your beliefs?

I have offered evidence, scriptures in context, proof that God does not care how much sex we have, how often, with how ever many wives as we want, that adultery is not what we modern western Christians think, and that ungodly lust has everything to do with illicit sexual intercourse, and that the passage in Matthew does not have the meaning that we modern western Christians try and force it to have either. It simply cannot be done unless you are in the presence of a woman who is married to another living man. That's the meaning. I did not choose the words for married woman and the word adultery. God/Jesus did.

That which we love least will always be forced to conform and support that which we love most. Every man loves either the truth, or his beliefs, more.

As always, unless you are firmly convinced that a thing is not sin, it is a sin for you, no matter what the word of God says and means. Stay sin free brethren... and ladies.

I wish you would quit talking about extra wives, cuz that's not what the Op is talking about. YOU stick to the subject, & quit projecting your views on others. This is disrespectful to the Op & others trying to speak to the subject.

And BTW, projecting your view on others about the meaning of lust will not cover your sin & liberal views of masterbation.

EmethAlethia · Sep 14, 2014

Stephen,

If anything I have said is contrary to what the scriptures say and mean, and what God has done, and hasn't done, then point it out. If everything I had to say was a valid point fully supported both by the scriptures and by God's responses / lack of responses, then all I shared was God's opinions, or lack thereof, on the topic. If you have anything other than opinions and beliefs, without scripture(In context, and without altering the meaning of words to force the passage to conform to your beliefs.), then provide the evidence of God's will, just as I did, or go over the meaning of the passages I covered with me, and show me where I am misinterpreting anything. we are commanded to reprove with all doctrine and longsuffering, not with all opinions and beliefs.

Again, if you have proof, evidence, facts ... rightly divided, not altering the meaning to fit what you want to believe, point it out. I am willing to alter my beliefs to fit scripture, not to alter what scripture says and means to fit your beliefs or anyone else's. Understand, if it is ok for you to alter the meaning of the word of God to make it fit your beliefs, then it is ok for everyone to alter what it says and means to fit any of their beliefs as well. If you can pick views that have absolutely no support because all that God said and did is contrary to those beliefs, then so can anyone else with any other belief that is contrary to what God said and did.

What I discussed was the scriptures that do pertain to the topic, or rather the scriptures that would seem to go contrary to your conclusions because there are no scriptures that, in context, discuss the topic. If you would like to go over scripture, context, flow of thought surrounding it, meaning of words as they are used throughout scripture, how God did, or didn't respond ... actual things from the word of God, let me know. Otherwise, I got it. I am wrong. I am just plain wrong, and even though you have no evidence to support it from scripture, I am just plain wrong, even though I have all the evidence from scripture that I am right. If this is not true, then please obey the scripture and reprove me with all doctrine(Scripture) and longsuffering.

Again, if what I said is sin, point it out, with all doctrine and longsuffering, in context ... do not twist or distort the words to make a point. We are seeking truth here are we not?

TheBlackRider · Sep 21, 2014

@JesusFreek
This is NOT written by me, but by a good friend of mine--his tumblr is found at asdeepcriesout.tumblr.com

As to the other two people....
Marriage is modeled after Christ and His Bride the Church. There is only ONE church--just as there is just ONE Eve for Adam. God created it that way. While God did allow David and Solomon to have multiple wives, their actions were never without consequences. Jealousy, hatred, strife, etc abounds. In Proverbs, it says that a contentious woman is worse than a house with leaks (or something like that)--much more a house with SEVERAL contentious women.

My advice? Don't argue over this kind of stuff. Masturbation is impossible without lust -- therefore it is a sin and best to overcome. It's a hard journey.

MisterHarmony · Sep 21, 2014

What is fair here? I am reading about Solomon having upwards of 1000 women he was intimate with. Then we focus in on someone trying to fulfill that same experience alone (masturbation) and call it sin. That is just too much burden for the romantically excluded. Its unfair to the point of being cruel. If you are allowed to sleep with a thousand women and not be found guilty in that, how much less is relieving the built up frustration on your own? Does anybody else see how ridiculous the contrast is. And that's within Christianity. Outside, it is even more difficult to experience that huge contrast. I thought Jesus said His burden was light. I gave myself to Him and yet I am plagued with a severely broken heart when I see how unfair the intimacies of humans are.

EmethAlethia · Sep 21, 2014

MisterHarmony said:

Mister, I am sorry that people tolerate beliefs that make God inconsistent, that make God someone who makes haphazard rules for one person and then ignores them for everyone else. What people do not understand, is that any belief that "appears" to make God inconsistent reveals an incorrect belief we are holding to, and may have closed eyes and ears to considering.

There is a reason why no one offers a passage on masturbation. There isn't one. Those with a modern view of adultery have no way to put together the fact that David had 6 wives, and kids with 5, prior to committing adultery. They also have no way of putting together the fact that almost all of the godly people in the O.T. had multiple wives, that God gives commands about how, "when we take additional wives", how we aren't to lessen the support, or the marital rights, of the first one. Add to that the fact that God states, in His reproof of David, through the prophet, that He, God, was the one who gave David his additional wives, even the wives of his enemies(after death of the husband, of course).

If you pin them down as to where the COMMANDMENT of God is to only have one wife, they quote something that isn't a command at all, but rather, the natural tendency of men and women, from that time forward, leaving their fathers and mothers and becoming one flesh with their wives.

Yes, we can ignore most of the passages of scripture that pertain to the topic, and just pick a couple we can "use" to hold fast to our beliefs, and another couple that we can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false, and interpret our "selected" data in the light of our beliefs, closing our eyes and ears to everything else. But if we do so, we are going to have real issues with what God, godly men ... and the scriptures say and mean, as all of them act differently than our modern beliefs. Like I said. Inconsistencies point out where we are forcing the word of God to conform to our beliefs rather than being willing to alter our beliefs to fit what the fullness of the word of God says and means ... and, in the process, actually making God consistent.

Keep in mind that men have called bowling sin, men have called playing cards sin. Men still call modern conveniences and electric items sin, in certain places. Jesus said that the Pharisees and Sadducees disavowed John because he neither ate what the religious leaders thought was normal or proper, nor did he drink wine (A result of his nazarite vow.) SO, what label did they give John? Well, you see, (Whispering ... John has a demon). On the other side, the religious leaders looked at how Jesus compared with their standards, and again, found a reason why He was disqualified ... (You see, you can't trust Jesus because ... well, have you watched ... he puts no restrictions on the amount of food, and no restrictions on HIs wine either ... no, He's not a teacher from God. It's obvious. He's a glutton and a drunkard.) Jesus, Himself, said that He came eating and drinking without restriction. The issue wasn't with what the Religious saw. They were seeing things correctly. The problem was with their conclusions, not with what Jesus or John were doing.

MisterHarmony, the issue is not whether or not those that have no scriptures, make God, His people, and His word inconsistent, creating commands where there are none. The issue is, are you going to figure out what the fullness of the word of God says and means on each and every issue, making God, His word and His people completely consistent in every way, and then do what He really says and means, or if you are going to teach, "As commandments" the doctrines of men that have nothing at all to do with the word of God. Keep in mind, even if what you choose to believe is a complete lie, and has no scriptural support, and makes God / his word / His people completely inconsistent, IF YOU BELIEVE IT, to violate, even a lie, IS SIN FOR YOU. Whatever is not from faith is sin.

I can't argue with people agreeing me that there are no commands from God about masturbation. I cannot argue with the fact that no one can come up with a COMMAND from God to have only one wife (And if they did they would make God a sinner as He gave Davis his wives prior to Bathsheba.) Again, if the goal is to stick your fingers in your ears and go LA, LA, LA, real loud so you don't have to listen, then the target isn't truth, it's to close your eyes and ears and hold fast to our beliefs.

Hopefully, you will not lay the inconsistencies of those that nullify the doctrines of God to hold fast to their traditional beliefs, and that teach as the commandments of God the doctrines of men, at God's feet. Not everyone wants truth. Many have gathered everything they need to hold fast to what they want and will never open their eyes to see. Hopefuly you are not one of them.

EmethAlethia · Sep 21, 2014

The black rider,

Having a godly reason for getting married is impossible without having lust, and the inability to control it. Otherwise, unless you don't believe that Paul had the Holy Spirit (Which will shrink your N.T. quite a bit), EVERYONE is better off remaining single. 1 Cor. Chapter 7. One has his gift in one area, another in another area, i.e. the gift of singleness, i.e. no struggles with control with regards to sexual lust, or those that have issues and therefore need to get married to prevent fornication.

Keep in mind that those that get married for this reason, are having issues with the touching mentioned in verse 1, that could lead to fornication(Illicit sexual intercourse) if they don't get married, according to Paul, if they get married BEFORE they commit fornication, THEY HAVE NOT SINNED.

The next question is, do we draw the line where God draws it, or do we call things sin that aren't according to the word of God, teaching as doctrines the beliefs, traditions, doctrines ... of men?

Yes, most "men" will draw the line of sin a hell of a long time before the word of God does. Yes, if we ignore this chapter, we can probably have the flexibility of believing lots of things are sin that don't cross the line as far as God is concerned. The Pharisees even came up with rules as to how many feet you could walk on a regular Sabbath, different rules for a high Sabbath, and various workarounds, setting up a tent and waiting the required time before continuing your journey ... But you will have to ignore, leave out, alter the meaning of what is said in context ... in order to hold to what we "want" to believe.

MisterHarmony · Sep 21, 2014

I am just going to be frank here. The amount of pleasure associated with being with that many women is overwhelming to think about. And it can really hurt the feelings of someone romantically excluded. That's all I am saying. I am voicing a real hurt, not trying to speak against the Lord, or even Solomon. Its the area that gets to me pretty bad sometimes and I am asking for your understanding and mercy as a believer of Christ on my frustration. I am only human, and a sinner saved by the grace of God. Sometimes I fall apart and have to cry. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

ServantStrike · Sep 22, 2014

MisterHarmony said:

If it makes you feel any better, God never condoned Solomon's wives, nor David's wives.

1 Timothy 3:2 for starters
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

And in the Old Testament
Deuteronomy 17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]When thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

Verse 17 is pretty bad news for old Solomon isn't it? David killed a man over it, and death and destruction occured between his own children (heck one of them raped another one). Solomon gave into idolatry.

If someone wants to twist that to say that only Kings and church elders are forbidden from polygamy - but the average Joe can have multiple wives, then I guess they can have fun with that argument, but it's clearly not God's intention.

I'm saddened this has turned into a debate about polygamy at all. The people asking for help in this area didn't bring it up, but this suddenly feels like the bible discussion forum.

EmethAlethia · Sep 22, 2014

ServantStrike said:

Servantstrike: God disagrees.
2Sa 12:7 Nathan then said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 'I also gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!
A couple of things there. First, God gave David his wives, second, if David would have wanted more, God would have added many more “wives” to him as long as he didn’t commit adultery. Again, the context allows for nothing else.

ServantStrike said:

ServantStrike, While this is a quote, and it is from the bible, again, it is not a command to have multiple wives. If it was then God, in the passage above, sinned by giving David the wives of his enemies, and for saying what He was willing to do if only David had not committed adultery.

That said, I agree, if you are going to be an elder, or a deacon, you can only have one wife ... while serving in those positions. Shoot, if you have more than one, I can imagine that your plate is already full. You have no business trying to keep God's house n order as well. That said, if you aren't in those positions, and don't want to be, there is no command not to have multiple wives.

I will give you the following points though:

Polygamy is illegal in the U.S. since there are no “Commands” to have multiple wives in the word of God, just as there are no “Commands” not to have them, it is best to avoid them in the countries where they are illegal. We are commanded to try and keep the laws of the land unless they “Require” us to violate a command of God.

2. God’s best is singleness unless you are at risk of committing fornication (Illicit sexual intercourse).

ServantStrike said:

Verse 17 is not a problem. I am glad that you put in the rest of the passage that lists some of the things a king should not “Heap” for himself. These include:

Horses (Solomon’s Stables are legendary. He, according to many sources, had the largest number of horses of anyone in the ancient world, and possibly today as well.)
Wives (About 1000. Need I say more.)
Gold (Solomon is said to have been the richest man who ever lived.)

Did Solomon sin? Yes, according to scripture. He sinned by taking “FOREIGN” wives. That’s it, according to God.
We could debate how many horses is a heap of horses. Is two horses a “Heap”? Gold pieces? If a king has “two” gold pieces, is that a “Heap” the meaning of the word heap is something anyone who wants to look up everyplace where that word is found, and hold to a consistent meaning in all those places, can figure out. Hint: A heap is not 2-3 for gold pieces for a king. Hint: a Heap of horses is not 2-3 horses for a king either.
That said, we do have God’s command. Why didn’t God call Solomon out for CLEARLY HEAPING EVERYTHING GOD COMMANDED HIM NOT TO HEAP? Yep. I give you that point. IF Solomon did the heaping, since God commanded no KINGS to do the heaping, then Solomon was sinning on all counts, God is inconsistent, God lets some people get away with rampant sexual behavior with hundreds of women and never gives it a second thought while he gets on others for petty offences.
But who “Blessed” Solomon with those things? Did Solomon bless Solomon with his abundance, or did God. If it was God, then Solomon didn’t violate a thing, other than what God said he violated … “The taking of foreign wives”. That, it is clear, as God does say he violated that. Here’s a thought.

1Ki 3:3 Now Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of his father David, except he sacrificed and burned incense on the high places. 4 The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place; Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar. 5 In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream at night; and God said, "Ask what you wish me to give you." 6 Then Solomon said, "You have shown great lovingkindness to Your servant David my father, according as he walked before You in truth and righteousness and uprightness of heart toward You; and You have reserved for him this great lovingkindness, that You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. 7 "Now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king in place of my father David, yet I am but a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in. 8 "Your servant is in the midst of Your people which You have chosen, a great people who are too many to be numbered or counted. 9 "So give Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people to discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?" 10 It was pleasing in the sight of the Lord that Solomon had asked this thing. 11 God said to him, "Because you have asked this thing and have not asked for yourself long life, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have you asked for the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself discernment to understand justice, 12 behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you a wise and discerning heart, so that there has been no one like you before you, nor shall one like you arise after you. 13 "I have also given you what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that there will not be any among the kings like you all your days. 14 "If you walk in My ways, keeping My statutes and commandments, as your father David walked, then I will prolong your days."

So who gave Solomon what he did not ask for? Did Solomon “Heap” all the things he did not ask for unto himself? Nope. If God did it, Solomon is not in violation.

ServantStrike said:

I am sorry that people do not understand the difference between a personal belief and a command of God as well. That the passages that pertain need to be discussed, to get to truth, is just a part of dealing with the difference between "believing" something is true, and getting to the truth that fits with all that God said, and didn't say, on the issues at hand, and fitting them in with everything God, and godly men and women, did, and didn't do as well. If most of them did it and God never said a word, then, if we believe it is wrong, we make God, and godly men and women sinners, just like the religious of Jesus time did with Jesus, John the Baptist and every other godly man and women of their day whose beliefs conflicted with theirs.

Try not to choose beliefs that make God a sinner, or make Him participate in enabling what you "want to believe" is a sin. You can believe anything you want to believe is a sin to be a sin. Just try not to teach as doctrines those things God doesn't teach. Teaching your precepts as if they were the precepts of God(When they aren't), is not approved of in scripture.

Here's one more:
Exo 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

While there are no places where God makes allowances for ANY other "sin", (and if it was a "sin" God is a "sinner", by the way.) God does give commands as to what you must do if you choose to have another wife. Again, the beliefs of many put God in a real poor light. Accusing God of sin, unrighteousness, giving kings heaps of gold, heaps of horses, heaps of wives (Except the foreign ones like God said), is sinful behavior, is it not? Definitely doing a bit more than placing the stumbling block in a person's way, IF it is sin. Pick a meaning that fits EVERYWHERE, and with EVERYTHING that was said and done, and not said, and not done, in scripture. Otherwise, just say, God gives no commands not to do so and so. God gives guidelines as to what to do "If" you choose to do so and so. God gave these to so and so, and gave heaps of them to another so and so, but I believe that it would be sin for me.

Also, it is against the laws in most places, ergo, for that reason, and that I do not want more encumbrances, to interfere with my seeking and serving the Lord. No, not a sin according to God. Just a sin according to a lot of men.

ChristinaSanF · Sep 23, 2014

Riv said:

Masterbation is sin, the bible doesn't have to directly talk about a subject for us to understand that its wrong or to understand it falls under another category of sin in this case sexual immortality, It breaches gods intention for us and his design.

The bible doesn't directly say anything about pedophillia either so would you have people think that its not sin? no because its an abomination!

Galatians 5:16

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5

For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

I disagree. Occasional masturbation isn't lack of control over your own body. If you let it control you yes. But you can let anything do that.

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