Question of certainty

maxwel · Dec 28, 2018

Quick Update On Thread:

1. I embedded four short videos giving philosophical arguments for the existence of God; all of these arguments have been able to hold up under both public and academic debate. All of these arguments can be researched more thoroughly, and they have longer versions which are well supported by enormous amounts of scholarly work.

2. I embedded a very long video showing historical evidences for the resurrection of Christ; this argument has also been able to hold up under both public and academic debate. There are enormous amounts of scholarly work to support this as well.

3. Many people have joined the thread, giving various theological or philosophical answers to the questions of the OP; they've all been very reasonable and sound.

4. I'm sure many more people can and will add to this thread, if the OP returns and wishes to continue.

5. There are many many more evidences and arguments to support the existence of God, and the veracity of the Christian faith, which have not even been touched upon yet... people have been answering these questions for thousands of years.

Conclusion:

1. When people question the Christian faith, they usually have no idea there are actually answers.
2. There are, in fact, more answers than a human can even digest.
3. Therefore, the real question is not, "Are there answers?" The real question is "Do you really want the answers?"

Does a person really want the answers?
This has ALWAYS been the real question.

...

KelbyofGod · Dec 28, 2018

EM9642,

Posts #18 is correct, but I think the last part "it's about revelation" gives a wrong impression.

It's about God at the beginning: "If you want to know, ASK (him)".

It's about God in the middle: "Wait for him to answer no matter how long (or short) that takes".

And it's still about God at the end: "He will answer".

Then, when he does answer, you'll know for yourself He is real AND you'll be encouraged to ask him more because you know for a surety that He DOES answer prayer...for YOU.

Then you (like me) will know why this is written:

Psalm 116:1,2. "I love the Lord because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live."

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Solemateleft · Dec 28, 2018

EM9642 said:

Greetings EM welcome... I think you will like it here in the cc...
Lots of amazingly honest, and gracious, sometimes outspoken and opinionated - but always loving, caring and giving of advice for those who are seeking prayer, friendship, support or just a break from their daily routine...

I'm a man of science as well... I interpret your question very as 'how does a science minded person have any certainty of the accuracy of the Bible, it's message and context regarding God the Father, and Jesus Christ HIS Son?"

The answer is very fundamental - FAITH...
YES - there are numerous Christian denominations across our entire World, but they all have ONE Thing in Common - FAITH in HIM...

Here is a clip that you might find of interest...

Believe in God in 5 Minutes (Scientific Proof)

God Bless

PennEd · Dec 28, 2018

maxwel said:

Quick Update On Thread:

1. I embedded four short videos giving philosophical arguments for the existence of God; all of these arguments have been able to hold up under both public and academic debate. All of these arguments can be researched more thoroughly, and they have longer versions which are well supported by enormous amounts of scholarly work.

2. I embedded a very long video showing historical evidences for the resurrection of Christ; this argument has also been able to hold up under both public and academic debate. There are enormous amounts of scholarly work to support this as well.

3. Many people have joined the thread, giving various theological or philosophical answers to the questions of the OP; they've all been very reasonable and sound.

4. I'm sure many more people can and will add to this thread, if the OP returns and wishes to continue.

5. There are many many more evidences and arguments to support the existence of God, and the veracity of the Christian faith, which have not even been touched upon yet... people have been answering these questions for thousands of years.

Conclusion:

1. When people question the Christian faith, they usually have no idea there are actually answers.
2. There are, in fact, more answers than a human can even digest.
3. Therefore, the real question is not, "Are there answers?" The real question is "Do you really want the answers?"

Does a person really want the answers?
This has ALWAYS been the real question.

...

You rock Max!

That's all I have to say about that.

EM9642 · Dec 28, 2018

I am going to be honest. I really appreciate the responses and most people have been super cool about it. But Max the question is not always if I want the answers I obviously do that's why I asked... I don't know some people here seem a bit condescending all I wanted was to see different perspectives. My real question was my question I think it was kind of rude to assume I didn't want the answers.

Meme23 · Dec 28, 2018

Hey

, I actually used to have alot of questions about Christianity as well. But then I started going to some christian meetup groups in the city, and they actually answered alot of my questions, like who exactly is God, according to the bible, why should we believe in him, or even how do we know Christianity is the right religion out of all the other ones out there. Honestly they were able to explain it all just using the bible. It was really interesting and now i have a much stronger foundation of my faith. If you may be interested, pm me

Meme23 · Dec 28, 2018

EM9642 said:

Also! Never feel ashamed or discouraged from asking questions. For even in the time of Jesus, the disciples had questions, and he jesus answered them, encouraging them to know more and understand more.

““Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬
http://bible.com/111/mat.7.7-8.niv

The answers are out there if you are willing to find them

maxwel · Dec 28, 2018

EM9642 said:

1. "I really appreciate the responses and most people have been super cool about it."

I'm genuinely glad you've been getting helpful responses.

2. "But Max the question is not always if I want the answers I obviously do that's why I asked."

A. Asking a question is NOT an indication the questioner wants a truthful or genuine answer.
1.) People often ask questions over and over, to different people, until someone finally just gives them an answer they like.
- People often do this to justify, or rationalize, their own beliefs or views.
- This is a well known issue even in secular psychology.
2.) This is VERY COMMON in counseling, and VERY COMMON in evangelism and apologetics
3.) Even people in secular counseling, or in business, everyone knows this is a very common trait of human nature.

B. Asking a question to merely search for agreement to justify yourself is extremely common.
- As I mentioned above, it's well known in biblical counseling, witnessing, evangelism, and even in secular psychology, and even into other secular fields like business and management.

C. People often ask questions without wanting real answers; it happens all the time, and it's reasonable to bring up this truism in a discussion of apologetics.

It's a common issue in apologetics and witnessing, and it's very normal to bring this up.

3. "some people here seem a bit condescending"

It's not condescending for people to give of their time, and their hearts, to honestly answer questions from a complete stranger.

You asked for answers, and people have tried their best to give you answers.

If you ask questions, and people are taking time out of their day to answer your questions... it might be considered fairly ungreatful to accuse them of bad intentions at the very moment they're trying to help you.

4. "I think it was kind of rude to assume I didn't want the answers."

There's a lot going on in this statement:
- You're claiming to be offended, and by extension claiming some victim-hood status... which some might consider a bit manipulative.
- You're claiming to read my mind by knowing, somehow, what you think I must be "assuming."
- You're accusing me of being rude... when you could have been appreciative I took time out of my day to answer your questions.
- You're accusing me of statements which I never actually made.

Let's rethink all of this.

A. A person isn't a "victim" when they willingly ask a question in a public place and someone answers.

B. A person isn't a "victim" just because someone gives an answer that they don't happen to like.

C. If someone is used to winning an argument, or making people back down, by claiming "I'm offended"... that's a very old rhetorical tactic, and it's generally considered manipulative.

D. It isn't "rude" when someone takes time out of their day to answer your questions, personally, when YOU could have just googled them and found them all yourself.

E. When you could have just googled all these things for yourself, but you instead asked a bunch of strangers to expend their time answering your questions... it might be considered very ungrateful to accuse them of wrongdoing instead of being appreciative.

E. Unless you can read my mind, I don't know how you can know what I must be "assuming."

F. I never stated you didn't want answers, and yet you are accusing me of saying that.

I did bring up a truism, that "there are answers, but most people don't want them."
This truism is generally understood in Christian ministry and in secular counseling.
This truism is generally brought up to help a questioner recognized the gravity of their questions, and the gravity of the answers.
It is very common to raise this proposition during counseling, witnessing, and apologetics... it's usually done to add gravity to the situation at hand.
And although I did raise this truism as a relevant issue, because it is ALWAYS a real and pertinent issue, I never accused you of not wanting answers.

G. If you don't like any of the answers I originally gave, I might suggest that we generally learn at precisely that moment when new ideas challenge us. This is how we learn.

I realize some things I said must have upset you.
But our emotions and feelings don't necessarily make rational arguments.
It also isn't going to help YOU if I buckle every time you make an emotional accusation... that isn't going to help you.
I sincerely hope we can get past these things and go forward.

Conclusion:
1. Your profile says you are "unsure" about Christianity... Christians know this means you are not a Christian.

2. Therefore, it is our desire you WILL come to faith in Christ.

3. Coming to faith in Christ requires admitting our sin, giving up our pride, and falling, in faith, upon Christ.

4. If I've genuinely done something unseemly to offended you, I am genuinely sorry.

5. But there is a problem - before we can be saved, we must first admit we are sinful, and that we need a savior.

6. Therefore, because we must come to terms with our own sin... there comes a point where we must leave off defending ourselves, and blaming others, and feeling like victims... we must slow down, and come to terms with the nature of our own sin.

7. If I genuinely offended you, then I am genuinely sorry. But your salvation has nothing to do with me, and whether I am a good man or a bad man. Your salvation has only to do with coming to terms with your own sin... confessing your own sins before Christ, and accepting him as your savior.

...

EM9642 · Dec 28, 2018

maxwel said:

1. "I really appreciate the responses and most people have been super cool about it."

I'm genuinely glad you've been getting helpful responses.

2. "But Max the question is not always if I want the answers I obviously do that's why I asked."

A. Asking a question is NOT an indication the questioner wants a truthful or genuine answer.
1.) People often ask questions over and over, to different people, until someone finally just gives them an answer they like.
- People often do this to justify, or rationalize, their own beliefs or views.
- This is a well known issue even in secular psychology.
2.) This is VERY COMMON in counseling, and VERY COMMON in evangelism and apologetics
3.) Even people in secular counseling, or in business, everyone knows this is a very common trait of human nature.

B. Asking a question to merely search for agreement to justify yourself is extremely common.
- As I mentioned above, it's well known in biblical counseling, witnessing, evangelism, and even in secular psychology, and even into other secular fields like business and management.

C. People often ask questions without wanting real answers; it happens all the time, and it's reasonable to bring up this truism in a discussion of apologetics.

It's a common issue in apologetics and witnessing, and it's very normal to bring this up.

3. "some people here seem a bit condescending"

It's not condescending for people to give of their time, and their hearts, to honestly answer questions from a complete stranger.

You asked for answers, and people have tried their best to give you answers.

If you ask questions, and people are taking time out of their day to answer your questions... it might be considered fairly ungreatful to accuse them of bad intentions at the very moment they're trying to help you.

4. "I think it was kind of rude to assume I didn't want the answers."

There's a lot going on in this statement:
- You're claiming to be offended, and by extension claiming some victim-hood status... which some might consider a bit manipulative.
- You're claiming to read my mind by knowing, somehow, what you think I must be "assuming."
- You're accusing me of being rude... when you could have been appreciative I took time out of my day to answer your questions.
- You're accusing me of statements which I never actually made.

Let's rethink all of this.

A. A person isn't a "victim" when they willingly ask a question in a public place and someone answers.

B. A person isn't a "victim" just because someone gives an answer that they don't happen to like.

C. If someone is used to winning an argument, or making people back down, by claiming "I'm offended"... that's a very old rhetorical tactic, and it's generally considered manipulative.

D. It isn't "rude" when someone takes time out of their day to answer your questions, personally, when YOU could have just googled them and found them all yourself.

E. When you could have just googled all these things for yourself, but you instead asked a bunch of strangers to expend their time answering your questions... it might be considered very ungrateful to accuse them of wrongdoing instead of being appreciative.

E. Unless you can read my mind, I don't know how you can know what I must be "assuming."

F. I never stated you didn't want answers, and yet you are accusing me of saying that.

I did bring up a truism, that "there are answers, but most people don't want them."
This truism is generally understood in Christian ministry and in secular counseling.
This truism is generally brought up to help a questioner recognized the gravity of their questions, and the gravity of the answers.
It is very common to raise this proposition during counseling, witnessing, and apologetics... it's usually done to add gravity to the situation at hand.
And although I did raise this truism as a relevant issue, because it is ALWAYS a real and pertinent issue, I never accused you of not wanting answers.

G. If you don't like any of the answers I originally gave, I might suggest that we generally learn at precisely that moment when new ideas challenge us. This is how we learn.

I realize some things I said must have upset you.
But our emotions and feelings don't necessarily make rational arguments.
It also isn't going to help YOU if I buckle every time you make an emotional accusation... that isn't going to help you.
I sincerely hope we can get past these things and go forward.

Conclusion:
1. Your profile says you are "unsure" about Christianity... Christians know this means you are not a Christian.

2. Therefore, it is our desire you WILL come to faith in Christ.

3. Coming to faith in Christ requires admitting our sin, giving up our pride, and falling, in faith, upon Christ.

4. If I've genuinely done something unseemly to offended you, I am genuinely sorry.

5. But there is a problem - before we can be saved, we must first admit we are sinful, and that we need a savior.

6. Therefore, because we must come to terms with our own sin... there comes a point where we must leave off defending ourselves, and blaming others, and feeling like victims... we must slow down, and come to terms with the nature of our own sin.

7. If I genuinely offended you, then I am genuinely sorry. But your salvation has nothing to do with me, and whether I am a good man or a bad man. Your salvation has only to do with coming to terms with your own sin... confessing your own sins before Christ, and accepting him as your savior.

...

I have never said that I didn't admit I have sinned that is the easiest thing for me the acknowledge. I have searched the internet and found the answers unsatisfying. I thought asking people directly would be a better approach. I know people may troll but I have done nothing to indicate that so I do consider it unfair to assume that about me. I also did not like when you said "the real question is if people want to listen?" I have struggled with faith my whole life. All I want is to have it. I'm just trying to be honest in the fact I don't have it. And if you didn't want to answer you didn't have to. I asked a bunch of strangers on a Christian chat site. I figured it was the right forum. I don't consider myself a victim in any sense of the word. I am just frustrated with what I have found so far and the fact I can't find any faith. And Googling has many different answers and that is why I wanted to see indiv. Thought processes.

maxwel · Dec 28, 2018

EM9642 said:

The statement I made wasn't intended to disparage you.

It was a Biblical truism.

People fail to find spiritual answers when they don't want them.

So lets consider the antithesis.

If you DO want answers, genuinely, then you will find them... that is how God works.

I didn't say that to disparage you.
It is a truism, a biblical principle... and it has two sides.
YOU get to choose which side you want to be on.

If you are sincerely looking for answers, and you're willing to accept them, then this principle is GOOD NEWS.

It's nothing to be upset about.
It's something to be happy about.

...

RickyZ · Dec 28, 2018

EM9642 said:

Jesus said in the end 'love will grow cold'. And it certainly has. The fact that it has infiltrated even Christian circles like this one is telling. That's how I know God (Jehovah, the God Abraham believed) is real. The Bible says this this and that and I look around and see this this and that, after a while it stops being coincidence. There are a lot of other 'religions' and they embody this part or that part, but in my experience none of them encompass the whole picture like Jehovah God does.

Now, caveat that I didn't learn the Bible like most did, I kinda reversed engineered it. I live and work in the streets and have seen and lived thru many, many ... what, weird, strange, insane ... events. As I sought to understand these things the Bible was the most consistent source of answers. But, not always in the way it was being taught in church. Usually not.

You asked about denominations... makes me chuckle. Jesus healed 3 blind men ... one with mud and washing, one with alms, one by faith. These 3 men all ran off and started their own congregations, insisting their way to healing was correct and in most part exclusive of the others. You must have mud and wash! No, you must pay your alms! No, No, you must only have faith! Meanwhile, God stands off to the side saying "uhm, guys, uh over here? Does it really matter how I do it?"

God bless you, I hope you find your answers - but never stop questioning.

Zaphk1 · Dec 28, 2018

I thought I’d follow up after answering Q1, and whilst the OP may not be interested perhaps others could benefit. I’ve only studied up to the European Reformation and wish I could do modern Evangelical Church History. If someone has done an in-depth study on that topic please feel free to add.

And 2) Why are there so many denominations? And do they matter

Prior to the reformation in the 16th Century, the dominate religion in Europe was Catholicism. The Bible was available to the select few in the Catholic Priesthood and remained in Latin, thus the Gospel was withheld by the Catholic Church. The combination of a German translation of the Bible combined with the mass distribution through the printing press enabled the common folk to access the Bible. Martin Luther encouraged this with the belief that by getting the people to read the Bible themselves would enable them to turn to Protestantism. He set up the public education system to study the Bible and engaged with the upper and middle classes who were the most connected in trade and politics to allow Protestantism to flourish in Europe.

Whilst some did become Christian after reading the Bible themselves, there were many disagreements on the interpretation of the Bible. Some would take the Bible literally such as the Anabaptist movement, which had a violent radical movement or a pacifist movement (modern day Amish). For example, they believed that the kingdom of God could be hastened through the sword, whilst others would try to alienate themselves from non-Christians and set up his kingdom physically through isolated communities. John Calvin and Luther were more ‘slow’ reformers and thus those who wanted a quicker Reformation, took more drastic actions.

Other denominations come from disagreements over Church government. Henry VIII and Protestants set up Anglicanism with the English Monarch as the Head of the Church and the authority to appoint Bishops. Whilst the Scots who were Patriotic slowly moved from Catholicism towards Scottish Presbyterianism (a kind of democracy/congregation government) and looked upon Anglicanism with suspicion.

Another disagreement comes from Soteriology, on 'how we are saved'. Calvinist or Reformed Churches have a view that humanity is utterly depraved and only through sovereignty of God can he change our hearts so that we willingly choose him. Arminianism (most AoG or Uniting churches) have a view that view that humans and God both play significant role in human salvation. Perhaps a simple example in this forum is the use of lifeguard rescuing a drowning person. In Calvinism, God the lifeguard reaches out to grab us from drowning, whilst in Arminianism both God and the person grab each other to save the drowning person.

Whilst there are many different denominations, they all agree on the core beliefs that you must repent and turn to Jesus in order to be saved. The variations occur in the other doctrines that are not explicitly clear in the Bible such as Church governance, conduct of worship, and paedo or believer’s baptism.

Not all denominations are rigorously followed in each areas, for instance in Australia the NSW Anglicans are very different from QLD or VIC Anglicans, and even the British Anglicans themselves. I think what matters is that you attend a church service that you feel comfortable with and teaches the Bible well so that you can mature as a Christian.

PennEd · Dec 29, 2018

EM9642 said:

I think it's a great start to admit you sin. The question is, how are you going to pay the debt you owe God because of that sin. He demands payment. The wages of your sin is eternal death.

YOU can pay that debt by spending eternity separated from Him in Hell, or you can accept HIS payment of your debt through His Son, Jesus Christ.

But make no mistake. That debt WILL be paid.

EM9642 · Dec 29, 2018

I guess there must be something wrong with me...I guess I am just upset that I have always felt as though I genuinely, wanted answers, but can never quite find them. I don't know this causes me despair a lot. That''s why I asked how people are so certain...I wanted to see if someone's line of thinking was different than those I have heard so far.

EM9642 · Dec 29, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

To me it seemed impossible to prove something as unbelievable as the gospel...😅

I thought my own logic and understanding had a much more solid grasp of how things worked than the understanding or stories of some men written long ago...

I had no desire to seek God... one night I was laying in bed thinking of everything from evolution to potential conspiracies to creation and feeling.. really dumb... also scared...

of hell
😅

if there is a God....
and there is a heaven....
and there is a hell...
how do I know where I'm going?

Then I tried to block these thoughts out... from trying to find error in the bible (not even questioning if it was Jesus who I needed to debunk to feel safe)

to watching debates or lectures online

but nothing helped me wash away the fear that.... I am in need of Jesus to save me

So I picked up a bible (which in itself was a bible I had lost as a child.. passed many hands back to me after over 15 years... I didn't notice till I saw my name in my faded writing..I took a picture and it's in my testimony here)

and I desperately would read it and listen to sermons and the audio version of KJV on my head set... sometimes upwards of 10 hours a day for many days in a row...

annnd being the paranoid, head strong desperate young man I was... I fell into a false understanding of doctrine😧

I believed much like the pharisee but with a few twists

I was a sinless perfectionist (who failed horribly at it btw)

In my false understanding I accused many and pointed people the wrong way (even if they didnt often listen)

well... I was faced with many debates with men and women who had the truth.. and I had to be honest with myself to relieve the doubt and fear I had

so.... I took my understanding of many read throughs of the bible and many hours of prayer....
back to God....

again...
feeling super dumb
but wanting the truth more than I wanted to be "right" already

that time....
God changed something in me

all the verses which confused me or made me wonder if it means this or that

it opened up... as one whole big picture

now any confusion was solved with proper context and every read through was a new wave of information

my assurance built through literally begging for it as I dived into His word not allowing myself to believe anything that I was NOT certain of yet

even now there are certain issues I won't claim to be very wise about...

but when it comes to the Gospel

God has revealed it to me ... and revealed many of His promises are true through my day to day walk
His works in me

and the perfect harmony of His word.... filled from cover to cover with absolute truths

(sorry for the novel.... i may delete it 😅)

Please don't this was helpful and gives me some hope.

NoNameMcgee · Dec 29, 2018

EM9642 said:

ohhhh my goodness

you are quick

I'm sorry I deleted it....
but it's still there since you quoted it😆

you definitely have hope
the same amount as all of us
and it rests in Jesus

I see it as a wonderful sign you're seeking God already

The bible says we can't even seek Him unless we are drawn😏

if you ever have any questions i would love to do my best to give you my honest beliefs or opinions and why if you would like

EM9642 · Dec 29, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

ohhhh my goodness

you are quick

I'm sorry I deleted it....
but it's still there since you quoted it😆

you definitely have hope
the same amount as all of us
and it rests in Jesus

I see it as a wonderful sign you're seeking God already

The bible says we can't even seek Him unless we are drawn😏

if you ever have any questions i would love to do my best to give you my honest beliefs or opinions and why if you would like

That would be amazing thanks!

17Bees · Dec 29, 2018

I think your questions are quite consuming and I think several have given profound answers - especially Maxwell's. You should probably look into his answers again and maybe again after that to fully grasp all that's said.

I sort of know what you're facing. I mean, a lot of bible stories kind of mimic some of the older Greek God stories and even back further to Odin and Rey - like the story of David and Goliath, the overmatched guy triumphing over the powerful giant for instance. For me, though, (and I'm a simple person and not profound like a lot of these that have answered) the thing that started for me was kind of like a spark of faith. It was Genesis 1:26. Faith started its journey there because it was sooo BIG! It still is: "And God said, let us make man in our image and in our likeness."
:
I thought....who's us?? and who is our?? and what did "in our image" mean??? It was as if I had eaten from the forbidden tree of knowledge. It was consuming. I had to know everyithing because of because of the US and the WE and THE KNOWLEDGE. Humans seem different in so many ways. How did we come to this?? How do I know to ask the questions??

Faith seemed like an entity in and of itself. A fruit I had consumed and digested and was in my very veins. No amount of proof for or against would change that.

So I hope you find your tree, EM9642.

Adstar · Dec 30, 2018

EM9642 said:

Measure the different messages others give by reading the Holy Bible and seeing if what they say is in 100% agreement with the Holy Bible..

Adstar · Dec 30, 2018

EM9642 said:

One thing i have found ius that some people are very good in the area of Christian to Christian debate but many of these people are not very good at Christian to Seeker interactions..

Some Christians should not be allowed anywhere near Seekers.

Anyway i hope you are given wisdom to ask the questions you need to ask and recieve the answers you need to read..

Some people are not very good at asking questions..
Just as some people are not very good at reading them..

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