"Antichrist": Broad Deception By Narrow Definition

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Phoneman-777

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I think it's safe to assume your conclusion is derived from the popular idea that "out of one of them came forth a little horn" means "out of one of "the four horns" came forth a little horn" and is interpreted as, "Out of one of the four divisions of Greece - namely the Seleucid kingdom - came forth the little horn Antiochus Epiphanes IV".

The prophecy actually refers to "out of one of "the four winds" - or "directions of the compass" - came forth a little horn which attacked the nations laterally as Pagan Rome until it begins attacking vertically toward heaven as Papal Rome where it "cast the truth to the ground" as it robbed Christ of His throne, His names, His titles, His prerogatives, His High Priestly ministry, and He as the only arbiter of mercy, salvation, forgiveness, and blessing of His church...as well as mankind's judge, jury, and executioner of the same. It's what the name "antichrist" means - to "take the place of Christ".

The Papacy fulfilled everything the chapters of Daniel and Revelation predicted, and if you can point to one of them which they did not fulfill, I ask that you please do :)
1Christian1 and Scribe, I don't mind objections, but I'd like to at least hear why, brothers. I assure you the evidence for why the Little Horn comes out of the four winds, not the four horns, is right there in chapter 8.
 

Ahwatukee

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I disagree. In 2 Thess. 2:1-3 it clearly talks about the Day of the Lord and that's it. The Day of the Lord consists of Him appearing, us being gathered up, and then the Wrath of God has come. That's the context.
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Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction
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Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him = The gathering of the church

The Day of the Lord (that day) = The time of God's wrath which follows the gathering of the church

Paul is reassuring the Thessalonians that 'the Day of the Lord' which is the time of God's wrath, will not come until the apostasy and the man of lawless is revealed. Stop making the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him and the day of the Lord, as being the same event.

As I previously posted, the Thessalonians wrote to Paul because there were those who were teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come. And so they were concerned as to why they had not been caught up to meet the Lord in the air prior to the Day of the Lord as Paul had taught them.

In addition and besides this, I have pointed out to you that God's wrath which due because of our sins has already been satisfied by the Lord and no longer rests upon the believer. It is a legal precedent. This alone does not warrant any other proof of scripture.

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed."

When you or anyone else believes and teaches that the Lord is going to first put us through God's wrath before gathering us, you are not truly believing the scripture above which says that Christ was pierced for our transgressions and crushed for our sins. The Lord's suffering of God's wrath above absolves the believer from any wrath of God and because Jesus already satisfied it. I wish you and others could understand this rule, this concept. For this very reason the church will not and cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and must therefore be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

I'd give you Matt. 24:30-31, talking about the elect being taken up after the Great Tribulation and antichrist. Yet, you don't believe it's talking to the Body of Believers. Even though Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Israel, but His believing disciples in private about the End of the Age (verse 3)... Even Paul in His Epistles to the Gentile believers speaks about the elect.
No, I don't believe and I know for a fact that Matt.24:30-31 is not referring to the church being taken up after the great tribulation, because it would put the church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which comprises the coming wrath of God. Did you also forget that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked? Since God's wrath will affect the whole world, then there would be no place for us to run to, no ark to get on and not small town to run to.

Another error that expositors make is not understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For example, at the sounding of the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. What is not mentioned is the great number of fatalities which will result from this plague. For you cannot burn up a third of the earth and trees without there being a great number of resulting deaths.

At the sounding of the 2nd trumpet a third of the creatures in the sea die and a third of all the ships are destroyed. This is due to the giant Tsunami's that will be generated by that object coming through the earths atmosphere and hitting in one of the oceans. How many people are on those ships? How many people living in all of the cities, towns and villages on every shore that touches that body of water, as well as all of the cities, towns and villages up to a hundred miles inland?

At the sounding of the 3rd trumpet a third of the rivers and springs are contaminated by that great star like a torch, which is most likely describing a comet coming through the earths atmosphere. It states that many die from drinking the waters. How many is many? If a third of the fresh water is contaminated, that would be a lot of people who will die from drinking it.

At the sounding of the 5th Trumpet those demonic beings that resemble locusts come up out of the Abyss and are given power to torment the inhabitants of the earth for 5 months with stings like scorpions. The only ones who are protected from them are those with the seal of God on their foreheads which would be the 144,000 who are sealed in Rev.7:1-6

At the sounding of the 6th trumpet, the four angels (fallen) who have been bound in the area of the Euphrates River along with their demonic army of 200 million, will be released to kill a third of what is left of mankind.

When the 4th bowl is poured out on the sun, it is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth, searing them with intense heat. How many die from that? This is God's wrath! How could the church be protected from this or any of the other plagues of wrath? The answer is that the church won't be protected, because they won't be on the earth to experience God's wrath.

I'm trying to demonstrate to you the severity of these coming plagues of wrath and why the church cannot be here to experience it. For just as Jesus said, "it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth."


Question: How will the "Tribulation Saints" go through the Wrath of God, if Jesus died on the cross and already took that upon Himself?
Answer: Because this group is not the church and will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church. Just as God foreknew, predestined and wrote the names of those He would save throughout all of history in the book of life before the world began, so also God has selected certain groups for certain times, to go through certain events. As I pointed out to you, there will be the woman which is the unbelieving nation of Israel, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints on the earth during the time of God's wrath. These were all selected by God to fulfill His Sovereign purpose during that time. As I said before, Jesus even warns all believers to be watching and ready for His appearing. If believers go back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature, then they too will be left here to experience God's wrath. And I'm sure that there will be many. This is why throughout scripture Jesus warns us to "Watch!"
 

tanakh

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I agree, but it's not based on works. We need to look to God and trust in Him through Yeshua; at the same time we need to stand up for truth and righteousness. To expose the works of darkness and deception, which Yeshua warned us of in Matthew 24, including the Epistles that were written by the Apostles. Not only that, but in the Tanakh.

If someone is headed off the cliff, don't we want to warn them for their safety?

(Ezekiel 33:6) But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the shofar, so that the people are not warned; and then the sword comes and takes any one of them, that one is indeed taken away in his guilt, but I will hold the watchman responsible for his death.'

The pre-tribulation rapture is not an issue for academic debate, it's a deception that we need to be aware of. Because if believers aren't aware or don't consider the things to come (which is given in the Tanakh and the New Testament), then we will be caught off guard.

This is exactly what the Prophets did: to warn their people of what was coming. We can look at the history.

Our salvation is not based on works but our works are the fruit of our salvation. As for the Pre tribulation Rapture I agree
that it is a deception but warning some people is a waste of time. They have been presented with the truth both from
scripture and history but it makes no difference. Israel was warned time and again by the Prophets and it made no difference
they also claimed to know scripture . There is a saying about leading a Horse to water. Another saying is that one who knows
the Torah and refuses to abide by it is like a Donkey loaded with books.
 

Phoneman-777

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I agree. I do not see how the pre-trib view negates any of that. Christians should expect the world to hate them and to want to kill them and that is not going to change. There is no promise of escape from persecution or death by governments and haters in the pre trib view. We are promised to be kept from His wrath in the Day of the Lord which is what most of Revelation is about. So even the Post trib view believes that Christians will some how be protected from the judgments that are poured out on the earth. If anyone thinks that the pre-trib view teaches that Christians will escape persecution and death from martyrdom they do not understand the eschatology of pre-tribulation rapture. It is escape from the wrath of the Lamb that is going to cause them to say to the rocks "fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb"
But this has been said so often in these posts that I am not sure why people keep saying that the pre-trib view is escapism. Unless they have an issue with escaping judgment of God.
The problem with pre-trib is that it doesn't acknowledge that God can keep His people in the midst of the storm - a very well established Biblical truth set by many precedents. The idea that God has to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints in order to keep us from His wrath is a denial of Scriptural precedent, an acknowledgement our faith is lacking, and a presumptuous advisory on how God should conduct His business...

If you doubt me, ask Daniel, the Three Hebrew Worthies, Israel under Queen Esther, Noah and his family, Jerusalem in the time of Hezekiah and Sennacherib's siege, Israel in Goshen (I can keep you busy all day if you want me to).
 

Phoneman-777

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Our salvation is not based on works but our works are the fruit of our salvation. As for the Pre tribulation Rapture I agree
that it is a deception but warning some people is a waste of time. They have been presented with the truth both from
scripture and history but it makes no difference. Israel was warned time and again by the Prophets and it made no difference
they also claimed to know scripture . There is a saying about leading a Horse to water. Another saying is that one who knows
the Torah and refuses to abide by it is like a Donkey loaded with books.
Amen, yes, Christian Origination says our works have nothing to do with salvation, but are the fruit of accepting salvation.

Regarding Christian Obligation, does a lack of works prove anything? "Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the Truth (Jesus) is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4. Yes, what we're reading is that a lack of works proves we're nothing but baptized devils warming the pews.
 

Phoneman-777

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Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him = The gathering of the church

The Day of the Lord (that day) = The time of God's wrath which follows the gathering of the church
You do realize Paul in 2 Thess. 2 absolutely NEVER refers to a plurality of days, right? He says "...as that the DAY (NOT "DAYS") of Christ is at hand"...then he says "...that DAY (not "DAYS") shall not come except there come a falling away first.."

Also, "...by the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him" is exactly in line with "...the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout....and the dead in Christ shall rise..." See that? EXACTLY the same thing.

Peter says when the Lord comes as a thief, the Earth all but blows up like the Death Star, which means Coming and the Gathering are on the SAME DAY. You cannot explain how after the Thief's Gathering they're be 7 more years of anything since Peter says it's all over with, so why continue believing Jesuit Futurism?
 

Phoneman-777

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Most popular among whom? You must reading those Jesuit books again. :) Jesus mentioned the prophecy long after Antiochus Epiphanes so how could anyone interpret it as him?
Most popular among non-Catholic Christians. If there is another historic figure to which the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is more popularly applied, by all means please tell...just saying "you're wrong" is not much of an objection, I think, brother :)
 

Ahwatukee

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You do realize Paul in 2 Thess. 2 absolutely NEVER refers to a plurality of days, right? He says "...as that the DAY (NOT "DAYS") of Christ is at hand"...then he says "...that DAY (not "DAYS") shall not come except there come a falling away first.."
The Day of the Lord (that day), also referred to as 'the hour of trial' is neither a day nor an hour in length, but is a collective phrase representing the entire period of God's wrath which is made up of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For example, the 5th trumpet is just one of the plagues of God's wrath which is specified to last for five months. By the way, the word 'church' is also in the singular, but refers to the whole body of believers, as in the following example:

"Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers."

Church: Noun - nominative feminine singular (represents all of the believers (plural) that belong to it.)

Also, "...by the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him" is exactly in line with "...the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout....and the dead in Christ shall rise..." See that? EXACTLY the same thing.
I agree completely with what you said above. However, I also recognize the gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air vs. the Lord's return to the earth, as two separate events, which take place at different times and for different purposes. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, those who were resurrected and caught up will be following Him out of heaven riding on white horses as He returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14

Peter says when the Lord comes as a thief, the Earth all but blows up like the Death Star, which means Coming and the Gathering are on the SAME DAY. You cannot explain how after the Thief's Gathering they're be 7 more years of anything since Peter says it's all over with, so why continue believing Jesuit Futurism?
This is where it is important to address all scriptures regarding the same Biblical topic in order to come to a right conclusion. That said, we also have scripture which reveals that after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age that He establishes His millennial kingdom (Rev.20:1-7). In Rev.20:11, which takes place after the thousand years have ended and at the beginning of the great white throne judgment, we have John saying "The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them." Then in Rev.21:1 which is after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment, John says "Then I saw 'a new heaven and a new earth,' for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

Based on this information, this current heaven and earth cannot be destroyed until after the thousand year reign of Christ on this current earth. If you have the earth being destroyed when the Lord returns to the end the age, then none of the other scriptures regarding His return could be fulfilled such as the following:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

"Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

Jesus must rule on this earth in Jerusalem from the throne of his human ancestor king David, which again would be during the millennial kingdom.

The following are some of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom:

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The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat; the calf and young lion and fatling will be together,
and a little child will lead them.

The cow will graze with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play by the cobra’s den, and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the food of the serpent will be dust. They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain” (Isaiah 65:25)

"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." (Isaiah 65:20)

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The above are characteristics have not yet exited on the earth. And since all of God's word must be fulfilled, then the only place that those characteristics can take place is during the millennial kingdom revealed in Revelation 20:1-7 which begins after the tribulation period and after Christ's return to the earth to end the age, where at which time Satan will be sealed up in the Abyss so that he can't deceive the nations during that thousand years.
 

Ahwatukee

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The problem with pre-trib is that it doesn't acknowledge that God can keep His people in the midst of the storm
We understand that God can protect His people in the midst of the storm, so it's not a problem. This is proven with Noah and Lot and others. However, what you and others are not understanding is the severity and magnitude of the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since these will affect the whole world, there will be no ark to get on and no small town to flee to. This time of God's wrath will be worse than anything that has ever take place on the earth, unequaled from anything that has taken place from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

Through faith in Christ, the believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and has been reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and is therefore not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any wrath. Being a legal precedent, this means that since Christ already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believe which means that the church cannot and will not be exposed to God's wrath and therefore must be remove prior to said wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.
 

Phoneman-777

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The Day of the Lord (that day), also referred to as 'the hour of trial' is neither a day nor an hour in length, but is a collective phrase representing the entire period of God's...
Really, bro? I've heard of the "day/year" principle in prophecy which is supported by textual evidence, but a "day/collective phrase" principle? The Gathering takes longer than a day? The Coming in the clouds, too? How many thieves in the night have you ever heard taking several days to rob a home or place of business (well, maybe if you count the people rioting LOL)
 

Phoneman-777

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We understand that God can protect His people in the midst of the storm, so it's not a problem. This is proven with Noah and Lot and others. However, what you and others are not understanding is the severity and magnitude of the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since these will affect the whole world, there will be no ark to get on and no small town to flee to. This time of God's wrath will be worse than anything that has ever take place on the earth, unequaled from anything that has taken place from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

Through faith in Christ, the believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and has been reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and is therefore not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any wrath. Being a legal precedent, this means that since Christ already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believe which means that the church cannot and will not be exposed to God's wrath and therefore must be remove prior to said wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.
What I know is that Noah and company were perfectly safe in the severity and magnitude of the Flood which totally destroyed the world. God's omnipotent power is perfectly able to preserve life in the midst of unspeakable destruction, is it not? "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand BUT IT SHALL NOT COME NIGH THEE". All agree that Psalm 91 is a prophecy of God pouring out the reward of the wicked upon them in the end, and I'd agree with you if it said, "A thousand shall fall way down there beneath you on the Earth..." but it doesn't....it says "at thy side" and "thy right hand".
 
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Most popular among non-Catholic Christians. If there is another historic figure to which the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is more popularly applied, by all means please tell...just saying "you're wrong" is not much of an objection, I think, brother :)
I do believe that this "person you are talking about Is going to be a Government official. Trump?
 
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The problem with pre-trib is that it doesn't acknowledge that God can keep His people in the midst of the storm - a very well established Biblical truth set by many precedents. The idea that God has to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints in order to keep us from His wrath is a denial of Scriptural precedent, an acknowledgement our faith is lacking, and a presumptuous advisory on how God should conduct His business...

If you doubt me, ask Daniel, the Three Hebrew Worthies, Israel under Queen Esther, Noah and his family, Jerusalem in the time of Hezekiah and Sennacherib's siege, Israel in Goshen (I can keep you busy all day if you want me to).
Personally I have never seen a SECRET rapture in scripture. I believe that the transfiguration of the saints will be visible. They will shine as the stars and rise and meet the Lord and the world will see it an know Christ will be admired in us when we are to the praise of the Glory of His Grace, the manifestation of the sons of God.
 

tanakh

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We understand that God can protect His people in the midst of the storm, so it's not a problem. This is proven with Noah and Lot and others. However, what you and others are not understanding is the severity and magnitude of the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since these will affect the whole world, there will be no ark to get on and no small town to flee to. This time of God's wrath will be worse than anything that has ever take place on the earth, unequaled from anything that has taken place from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

Through faith in Christ, the believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and has been reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and is therefore not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any wrath. Being a legal precedent, this means that since Christ already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believe which means that the church cannot and will not be exposed to God's wrath and therefore must be remove prior to said wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.
Gods wrath doesnt cover the whole of the seventieth week. Revelation is not in strict chronological order. It is in the order of the visions John receives. Much of the book is written in symbolic language which is based on literally hundreds of OT passages and inferences. Also it was written primarily for first century readers who understood it far more than we are likely to which is proved by the
endless debates about it and the fantastic interpretations that people dream up.
 

Ahwatukee

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Really, bro? I've heard of the "day/year" principle in prophecy which is supported by textual evidence, but a "day/collective phrase" principle? The Gathering takes longer than a day? The Coming in the clouds, too? How many thieves in the night have you ever heard taking several days to rob a home or place of business (well, maybe if you count the people rioting LOL)
I think that you misread my post, because I never said, nor would I ever say, that the gathering of the church takes longer than a day. I said, the Day of the Lord is a collective phrase representing the period of God's wrath. The gathering of the church is not the Day of the Lord, but takes place prior to it.

The Day of the Lord
Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it.

The gathering of the church = A blessed event when those living in Christ at the time of the resurrecting will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air, of which Paul said, "comfort each other with these words. Suffice to say, if the church was to go through the time of God's wrath, then it would be no blessed hope, nor could believers comfort each other regarding it, because we would be exposed to God's wrath the same as the wicked.

There are many collective names and phrases in scripture representing many. Below are a few of them:


The Day of the Lord = The period when God's wrath is poured out (it is not a literal day)

The Church = Represents every believer dead and living from the on-set of the church

Male Child = a collective name representing the 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to)

Legion = A collective name representing over 6,000 demons

The Day of the Lord is a phrase covering the entire time period of when God's wrath is poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which couldn't possibly happen in a single day. The Day of the Lord is also called "the hour of trial" which is also not an hour in duration. The 5th trumpet alone is said to be five months long.

Regarding the changing and gathering of the church, that event will take place in an 'atomos' which is defined as a period time to short to divide.

The Lord's coming 'like a thief in the night" is referring to the event where the church is gathered, with the Day of the Lord to follow that event.
 

Ahwatukee

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What I know is that Noah and company were perfectly safe in the severity and magnitude of the Flood which totally destroyed the world. God's omnipotent power is perfectly able to preserve life in the midst of unspeakable destruction, is it not? "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand BUT IT SHALL NOT COME NIGH THEE". All agree that Psalm 91 is a prophecy of God pouring out the reward of the wicked upon them in the end, and I'd agree with you if it said, "A thousand shall fall way down there beneath you on the Earth..." but it doesn't....it says "at thy side" and "thy right hand".
Noah and lot is not an accurate comparison to the gathering of the church in that, Noah could not be gathered from the earth because he and those with him were those who repopulated the earth. If God had removed them, then there would be no one currently on the earth. God did not take lot either because it was not God's will to change him and catch him up.

The believers within the church however, have a specific promise from the Lord, as revealed below:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." (John 14:1-3)

According to the scripture above, after Jesus resurrected, He later ascended back to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for every believer. Then He says that would come back to take us to those places, which again are in the Father's house, so that where He is we may be also. I Thessalonians 4:16-18 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3 when the Lord comes to get us.

If you understood the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, you would understand why the church cannot and will not be present on the earth during that time. However, it is the legal precedent that is the key to understanding why believers in Christ cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. That legal precedent is that God's wrath that all believers deserve was already poured out on Christ, satisfying it completely. That said, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and the church must therefore be removed prior to said wrath.

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

The destruction that will come upon the wicked, are the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The reason that day will not surprise believers like a thief, is because those who are watching for the Lord will be gathered at that time with that sudden destruction to follow which will come upon the whole world. And we know that destruction that comes on them suddenly is not a one day event, but as the scripture states, it will be like labor pains on a pregnant woman, which start off far apart and get closer together and more intense leading up to the birth. This is how God's wrath is going to take place, like birth pains.
 
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Noah and lot is not an accurate comparison to the gathering of the church in that, Noah could not be gathered from the earth because he and those with him were those who repopulated the earth. If God had removed them, then there would be no one currently on the earth. God did not take lot either because it was not God's will to change him and catch him up.

The believers within the church however, have a specific promise from the Lord, as revealed below:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." (John 14:1-3)

According to the scripture above, after Jesus resurrected, He later ascended back to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for every believer. Then He says that would come back to take us to those places, which again are in the Father's house, so that where He is we may be also. I Thessalonians 4:16-18 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3 when the Lord comes to get us.

If you understood the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, you would understand why the church cannot and will not be present on the earth during that time. However, it is the legal precedent that is the key to understanding why believers in Christ cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. That legal precedent is that God's wrath that all believers deserve was already poured out on Christ, satisfying it completely. That said, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and the church must therefore be removed prior to said wrath.

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

The destruction that will come upon the wicked, are the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The reason that day will not surprise believers like a thief, is because those who are watching for the Lord will be gathered at that time with that sudden destruction to follow which will come upon the whole world. And we know that destruction that comes on them suddenly is not a one day event, but as the scripture states, it will be like labor pains on a pregnant woman, which start off far apart and get closer together and more intense leading up to the birth. This is how God's wrath is going to take place, like birth pains.
Do you think that the Fathers house is the same as the New Jerusalem. So when it comes down from heaven to earth it is already populated with the redeemed. I suppose it would have to be that way since the earth is destroyed and a new one is created the redeemed have to be somewhere.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Do you think that the Fathers house is the same as the New Jerusalem. So when it comes down from heaven to earth it is already populated with the redeemed. I suppose it would have to be that way since the earth is destroyed and a new one is created the redeemed have to be somewhere.
Good day, Scribe!

Regarding "those places" that the Lord went to prepare for us in the Father's house, many interpret them as being in the new Jerusalem, which would be a good assumption and could very well be. However, the scripture never states specifically that those dwelling places are within the New Jerusalem. What we do know is that Jesus ascended back to heaven to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places, rooms or mansions for us, depending on which translation you read. And that when He comes back He is taking us there so that we can be where He is.

One thing is for sure, is that at some point we will live in the New Jerusalem either when we are taken to the Father's house or after the millennial kingdom and great white throne judgment when the New Jerusalem comes down from God to the new earth. Regarding this, I have always thought that the New Jerusalem might be orbiting the new earth. For the scripture says that the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. And that By its light the nations will walk. That last part is what makes me believe that the city will be orbiting the earth. For in order for the nations to walk by its light, it seems to me that it would have to be above the earth like the sun and the moon, opposed to sitting on the earth.
 
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Good day, Scribe!

Regarding "those places" that the Lord went to prepare for us in the Father's house, many interpret them as being in the new Jerusalem, which would be a good assumption and could very well be. However, the scripture never states specifically that those dwelling places are within the New Jerusalem. What we do know is that Jesus ascended back to heaven to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places, rooms or mansions for us, depending on which translation you read. And that when He comes back He is taking us there so that we can be where He is.

One thing is for sure, is that at some point we will live in the New Jerusalem either when we are taken to the Father's house or after the millennial kingdom and great white throne judgment when the New Jerusalem comes down from God to the new earth. Regarding this, I have always thought that the New Jerusalem might be orbiting the new earth. For the scripture says that the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. And that By its light the nations will walk. That last part is what makes me believe that the city will be orbiting the earth. For in order for the nations to walk by its light, it seems to me that it would have to be above the earth like the sun and the moon, opposed to sitting on the earth.
That would be awesome if one imagines it. However it does not fit the description of coming down, having foundations, having walls, and having gates, and " and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it " (would they need to board a transport, or would it land for this purpose?) I am being sarcastic, I think the more natural interpretation and intent is that it comes down from heaven to the New Earth and there it remains. I don't think we should try to put the New Earth and New Heavens into the same scientific concept or rules of nature that we understand now. It will probably not be bound by the same physical laws and there is no reason to try to figure out how the light can be seen without a rotation.
Jesus made it clear that we cannot only understand heavenly things from earthly frame of reference because we have not been there, seen, imagined, heard it yet. So when Revelation was written it did not change that. It was a vision revealed to John that has a theological concept but it is still not the heavenly things themselves because we cannot comprehend it. There is probably something much different than what we are reading described in the reality of the heavenly itself.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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That would be awesome if one imagines it. However it does not fit the description of coming down, having foundations, having walls, and having gates,
I don't see the New Jerusalem as having foundations, walls and gates as being a problem for the city to be orbiting the earth. We're talking about God as the creator here, remember :)

Also, if the city was sitting on the earth, who could the nations walk by its light? Regarding the heavens 'ouranos' can refer to the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, the spiritual heavens.

Jesus made it clear that we cannot only understand heavenly things from earthly frame of reference because we have not been there, seen, imagined, heard it yet. So when Revelation was written it did not change that. It was a vision revealed to John that has a theological concept but it is still not the heavenly things themselves because we cannot comprehend it. There is probably something much different than what we are reading described in the reality of the heavenly itself.
If the above was true, then we could not know or believe in what the book of Revelation is saying. Regarding this, in the very first verse we read: "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass." We can trust in what we are reading in regards to these descriptions. That said, I do not agree that the information contained in Revelation is theological concept. I believe that the descriptions given regarding the city with its dimensions and foundations are accurate and true. We can read about the New Jerusalem, but we can't truly understand the magnificence of it until we see it with our own eyes.