If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

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lawrence101

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You got it all wrong. Scripture 100% supports post-tribulation rapture. This isn't a debate; I'm teaching you.

Matthew 24:29-31 clearly says that the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 clearly says that the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture.

Revelation 20:4-6 says that saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period – the Great Tribulation – would be part of the “first” resurrection. This conflicts with the pre-tribulation rapture theory, which states that the first resurrection happens before the mark of the beast.
In Matthew 24 Jesus was answering the disciples question about his return and the end of the world nothing to do with the rapture ( blessed hope ). I'm trying to teach you.
 

lawrence101

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There is no "harpazo [G726; SNATCH / caught up]" word or idea in Matthew 24:29-31 (instead, Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9[Rom11:27],12-13--note WHO is being "gathered" and TO WHERE, and IN WHAT MANNER: "ONE BY ONE" (not AS ONE, as we will be at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")]



The text does not convey this. IOW, it does NOT state "and the man of sin BE REVEALED *FIRST*"...



Instead, it states that "...BECAUSE [conj] that day [(italics)...the time period having been spoken of from verse 2, the DOTL earthly time period of judgments] will not be present unless shall have come" ...ONE THING *FIRST* (unless shall have come "THE Departure *FIRST*"--i.e. the Subject PAUL v.1 was bringing to bear on the problem / matter [the problem being re: the FALSE CLAIMANTS' purporting that it "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" v.2).

Not grasping what Subject v.2 is about causes many to take a mis-step in interpreting this passage, esp. the following verse, in particular v.3a (the particle of qualified NEGATION... and what IT is pointing BACK TO--->[v.2's Subject])
Ive often wondered about that too, when will the anti-christ be revealed? II Thessalonians 2: 7-8 : For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that WICKED be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ( KJV )
 

Runningman

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In Matthew 24 Jesus was answering the disciples question about his return and the end of the world nothing to do with the rapture ( blessed hope ). I'm trying to teach you.
In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus returns after the tribulation to gather His elect. Gathering His elect is what Jesus does in the rapture. Matthew 24:29-31 does speak of the rapture after the tribulation.

This narrative of Jesus returning to gather His elect is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
 

lawrence101

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In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus returns after the tribulation to gather His elect. Gathering His elect is what Jesus does in the rapture. Matthew 24:29-31 does speak of the rapture after the tribulation.

This narrative of Jesus returning to gather His elect is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
Yes and i'm sure everyone would agree that Jesus gathers his elect tribulation saints after the tribulation LOL ! The post-trib position is so weak, easily shot down.
 

Runningman

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Yes and i'm sure everyone would agree that Jesus gathers his elect tribulation saints after the tribulation. LOL!
Corrcect, that's what the scriptures say. How's that funny?

The post-trib position is so weak, easily shot down.
Which verse(s) shoot down post-trib? 🤔
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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There is no "harpazo [G726; SNATCH / caught up]" word or idea in Matthew 24:29-31
Wrong. Gathering the elect is another way to speak of the rapture:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


Here the gathering/rapture is associated with the second coming. This same exact thing is found here:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The text does not convey this. IOW, it does NOT state "and the man of sin BE REVEALED *FIRST*"...
Yes it does. Two events are FIRST before the second coming happens:

1. The Apostasy.
2. The revealing of the MoS.



Not grasping what Subject v.2 is about causes many to take a mis-step in interpreting this passage

Not grasping what all of it is about is your error. You are wrong on every single thing in this barely readable post.
 

ewq1938

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Yes and i'm sure everyone would agree that Jesus gathers his elect tribulation saints after the tribulation LOL ! The post-trib position is so weak, easily shot down.
Except you just said the elect are gathered after tribulation which is post-trib. You just shot down pre-trib because there is only one rapture of the elect.
 

kinda

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Except you just said the elect are gathered after tribulation which is post-trib. You just shot down pre-trib because there is only one rapture of the elect.

I just think lawrence just likes saying things that sound good to him, but hardly understands what he is trying to say. He likes to argue you though, so if you need someone to go in circles with.....

Good luck with future discussions!
 

saintrose

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May 9, 2020
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Please identify the doctrine you are questioning accurately..

You are not questioning the rapture doctrine..

You are questioning the PRE- TRIBULATION rapture doctrine..

While the rapture is indeed in the Bible It's timing is very much discussed and debated.. There is the already mentioned Pre-tribulation rapture which declares that Christians will be raptured before the end times persecution and end times great disasters.. Then there are variation right up to the rapture doctrine i believe, being the second coming of the LORD Jesus rapture..

Yes Saints will be beheaded during the times of great persecution from the anti-christ and his followers but some will survive by the grace of God right up to the day of the Return of Jesus and it is these living Saints on that day that will experience the rapture..
The rapture is not in the bible. The rapture theory was created by Scofield, not a real Christian. Look him up.
 

saintrose

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It is sad that your friend could not show you where it was in the bible. Here it is:
1 Cor 15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And also:
1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

As you can clearly read there is going to be a time in the future when there will be a particular generation of believers who will not die but while alive will be changed to a glorified immortal state equal to that of those who are resurrected from the dead.

This is called the rapture because it is the English word of a Latin word from the Greek word that was translated "caught up" in the text above. So if you or any of your friends are offended by the word "rapture" Then just read both of these passages without taking a breath, and then they will finally understand why a using a single word is so much more convenient. LOL :) Of course reading both passages is important to educate those who are unaware of this topic, but once both passages are read and understood, it then becomes convient to refer to this EVENT as the rapture, providing your audience knows what passage we are referring to.

Now that this EVENT explained in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 will occur is not up for debate. Therefore one should not say they do not believe in the rapture. That is like saying they do not believe that Paul was telling the truth. It is usually the timing of the rapture that is in question. Some believe that the rapture will occur before the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God is poured out as described beginning about Rev 6 forward. Some believe that the rapture occurs in the middle of the tribulation and some believe that the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation but most evangelicals believe in the event occurring at some point when the Lord Returns and there will be a people alive at that time who WILL NOT SEE DEATH. They will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and be given the same kind of immortal bodies as those who did die and are resurrected. This EVENT WILL OCCUR. It is the blessed hope of the saints and should be preached and used to comfort one another as we wait for his appearing which will mean the glorification of our bodies and our gathering to be with Him.
There is nothing in those verses that say there is a "Rapture." Look up Scofield - many many have been deceived:

https://www.mylife4jesus.co.za/index_files/Page559.htm
 

Adstar

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The rapture is not in the bible. The rapture theory was created by Scofield, not a real Christian. Look him up.
No the rapture is in the Bible.. The word rapture is latin for being ""caught up"" this is Biblical;;

1 Thessalonians 4: KJV
16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The Saints who are alive and remain on earth at the time of the LORD Jesus return will be caught up ( raptured ) to meet the LORD Jesus at His second coming..
 

Marilyn

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I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.
Hi saintrose,

Oh my second name is `rose.` We have that in common.
Actually the `rapture,` the catching away is in God`s word, read 1 Thee. 4: 13 - 18. Quite a bit of detail there. We are NOT in darkness, and have been `saved,` from God`s judgments.

The Body of Christ is being brought to maturity in Christ and then we will be caught away to meet the Lord in the air and go to our eternal setting in glory. What a hope, our heavenly inheritance with the Lord forever. (Eph. 4: 13, Rev. 3: 21)

As to those in the trib, they call out to God and in His great mercy saves them.

1. Great Multitude - die of hunger, thirst and/or heat. (Rev. 7: 9 - 16)
2. Those beheaded for their witness of God and the Lord. (Rev. 15: 1 - 4, 20: 4) These ones believe that Jesus is Israel`s Messiah and will come and set up His physical rulership through Israel over the nations.

Too many people seem to think that `we,` the Body of Christ are the center of God`s purposes, when actually it is Christ. He is the center of God`s word and it is all about His character and God`s purposes through Christ for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. get that muddled up and the Bible becomes all about me, and thus confusing.
 

lawrence101

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Except you just said the elect are gathered after tribulation which is post-trib. You just shot down pre-trib because there is only one rapture of the elect.
No, obviously you, like most post-tribbers, are having reading comprehension problems . Ok let me help you, you appear to be in darkness on this issue, i said TRIBULATION saints as is foretold in the book Revelation . The rapture ( and please dont say rapture is not in the Bible like most post-tribbers say, if you need help with that let me know ) is in 3 phases: 1. First fruits 2. main harvest 3. Gleanings
 

GaryA

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The rapture is in 3 phases: 1. First fruits 2. main harvest 3. Gleanings
Okay - and, you can start (it would be good/ideal) by explaining - with relevant scripture - how the rapture is in 3 phases - keeping in mind that Jesus is/was indeed the 'first fruits' (resurrection, not rapture) but was not "raptured"...

The rapture only applies to the saints - when they are "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming.
 

lawrence101

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Appears you have the same false post-trib doctrin but i wasn't replying to you. But yes Jesus had ( and has) a glorified body when he rose from the dead, this is common knowledge, where did you go wrong ?
Looks like the post-tribbers are coming out of their holes LOL ! They dont like being exposed.
 

ewq1938

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No, obviously you, like most post-tribbers, are having reading comprehension problems .
Pre-tribbers always insult other people like this. No surprise there.

Ok let me help you, you appear to be in darkness on this issue,
Second personal insult. This should tell everyone to ignore everything you say because you litter your posts with Ad Hominems.



i said TRIBULATION saints as is foretold in the book Revelation . The rapture ( and please dont say rapture is not in the Bible like most post-tribbers say,
Zero post-tribbers say there is no rapture because post-trib means the rapture comes post-trib.

if you need help with that let me know ) is in 3 phases: 1. First fruits 2. main harvest 3. Gleanings
You have everything wrong in this post. The rapture is not in three stages either. That doesn't come from the bible. Neither does a pre-trib rapture for that matter.
 

kinda

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ZNP another thread you can talk about your false teachings, pre-tribulation rapture.

Pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine, please stop spreading the lies. I would appreciate this so much. Thanks!
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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ZNP another thread you can talk about your false teachings, pre-tribulation rapture.

Pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine, please stop spreading the lies. I would appreciate this so much. Thanks!
I would appreciate it if you would respond to these verses. I find it outrageous that someone would continue to tell people to stop speaking the word of God on this Christian forum.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Abraham asked the Lord "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" The answer was no.

Enoch was raptured before the flood.

Noah and 7 other souls (signifying the 7 golden lampstands?) entered the ark 1 week prior to the flood (7 years?) that was God's judgement on the Earth.

Jesus told us the end of the age would be as the days of Noah.

The book of Revelation from chapter 2-3 is completely focused on the church age. Chapter 4 begins saying "after this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be heareafter". John is raptured to the throne room, we don't hear of the church until Revelation 19 when it says the church returns again to the Earth as the Bride.

Psalm 18:16 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
from my foes, who were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
but the Lord was my support.
19 He brought me out into a spacious place;

he rescued me because he delighted in me.

The pre tribulation rapture is the Lord rescuing us from a powerful enemy.

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

1Thessalonians 5:3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

If you are there when the AntiChrist says "peace and safety" you will not escape and yet the Lord told us to pray that we might escape. Hmmm?

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

This word is to the church in Sardis, they are believers. It seems very obvious from this verse that there are two potential outcomes to the believers, when the Lord returns.

Luke 12:39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Ready for what? The Lord's return is likened to a thief in the night and He is warning the believers they "need to be ready" because "He will come at an hour when you do not expect Him". Again, two outcomes, one where there are believers who are ready and watching when the Lord returns and one for those believers who are befuddled and are not ready.