If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[saintrose]

It is sad that your friend could not show you where it was in the bible. Here it is:
1 Cor 15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And also:
1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

As you can clearly read there is going to be a time in the future when there will be a particular generation of believers who will not die but while alive will be changed to a glorified immortal state equal to that of those who are resurrected from the dead.

This is called the rapture because it is the English word of a Latin word from the Greek word that was translated "caught up" in the text above. So if you or any of your friends are offended by the word "rapture" Then just read both of these passages without taking a breath, and then they will finally understand why a using a single word is so much more convenient. LOL Of course reading both passages is important to educate those who are unaware of this topic, but once both passages are read and understood, it then becomes convient to refer to this EVENT as the rapture, providing your audience knows what passage we are referring to.

Now that this EVENT explained in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 will occur is not up for debate. Therefore one should not say they do not believe in the rapture. That is like saying they do not believe that Paul was telling the truth. It is usually the timing of the rapture that is in question. Some believe that the rapture will occur before the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God is poured out as described beginning about Rev 6 forward. Some believe that the rapture occurs in the middle of the tribulation and some believe that the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation but most evangelicals believe in the event occurring at some point when the Lord Returns and there will be a people alive at that time who WILL NOT SEE DEATH. They will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and be given the same kind of immortal bodies as those who did die and are resurrected. This EVENT WILL OCCUR. It is the blessed hope of the saints and should be preached and used to comfort one another as we wait for his appearing which will mean the glorification of our bodies and our gathering to be with Him.

Yes but WHO are the believers that are beheaded?

 

[saintrose]

Please identify the doctrine you are questioning accurately..

You are not questioning the rapture doctrine..

You are questioning the PRE- TRIBULATION rapture doctrine..

While the rapture is indeed in the Bible It's timing is very much discussed and debated.. There is the already mentioned Pre-tribulation rapture which declares that Christians will be raptured before the end times persecution and end times great disasters.. Then there are variation right up to the rapture doctrine i believe, being the second coming of the LORD Jesus rapture..

Yes Saints will be beheaded during the times of great persecution from the anti-christ and his followers but some will survive by the grace of God right up to the day of the Return of Jesus and it is these living Saints on that day that will experience the rapture..

I don't like the term "Rapture" because it isn't in the bible. It came from man and I'm shocked Christians would adopt it.

What I'm seeing is that Christians aren't going to be magically "raptured" out - we're going to remain here and be beheaded. It even fits with our government who has ordered guillotines. You're aware, I'm sure, that the powers that be have your name from your church roster and they know exactly where every Christian lives. It looks like WE are the ones to be beheaded.

 

[Ruby123]

How can 'the church' be removed and yet other believers remain to be beheaded? That doesn't square. How does God decide who stays and who leaves? Something isn't right about the rapture teaching.[/QUOTE

The video I posted to you is better at explaining things than what I can.

 

[KJV1611]

That doesn't have anything to do with the end times though.

The end times or last days happened when Jesus walked the earth. The last days were the last days of Israel as a nation and as stewards over the kingdom of God.

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[saintrose]

I'm going to watch it a little later. Thanks.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

the word Rapture is not in the Bible just like the word Trinity is not. The concepts are.

Once the church is removed God will pour out His Judgement on the earth as HE has never before. The Devil aka Satan will be running the world system yet there will be those who will not serve him and choose death. These are the saints who you are speaking of and Rev 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.

The word rapture is from the Latin 'raptura' which is from the Greek word "harpazo"....which means to be caught up.
Harpazo IS in the bible, just not in English bibles.

The bible says nothing about people being beheaded.
Believers have no fears..........everyone else should be hiding under their beds.

 

[Scribe]

Yes but WHO are the believers that are beheaded?

The pre trib view is that they got saved after the rapture. That it would be likely that the rapture would cause many (not most) to repent having an understanding that everything prophesied was true and they missed the rapture but now they want to repent and follow Christ and they realize that it will cost them their lives under this rule of the Antichrist.
That is a theory, I am not sure if it is correct. No one can say for certain. We can do our best to interpret but we have all of these different visions and they all have meaning.

There are saints in heaven worshipping before the throne before ever these in white robes are seen. Who are they? One theory is that they are the raptured saints. Others come later. Like the 5 foolish virgins who were shut out of the marriage might have come later after they got their heart right during the tribulation. This is one theory.

There are the 144000 that are seen as a separate group also. There are martyrs under the throne that are told to wait until their brothers are killed like they were. That all these different groups represent saints that were saved in the tribulation because they were not ready before the rapture and so the 4 faced creatures and the 24 elders who sing the song "you have redeemed us by your blood out of every tribe, tongue, nations, etc at the beginning in Chapters 4 and 5 are the raptured saints who inherit offices of administration that the other groups do not.

One of the better commentaries on Revelation is by Joseph A. Seiss called The Apolcalypse: Lectures in Revelation. It is freely downloadable in the public domain (it is over 100 years old) from any number of websites. Just google the title and .pdf and you will find it. It is 800 pages so don't expect to read it in a day. Just like any other theory on Revelation you may not agree with his interpretation, but he is known for doing an excellent job of presenting his case with many scriptures to support his interpretation.

He presents a pre trib pre mil interpretation but much of what he is interpreting applies to any eschatological view. The book of Rev is not just about the areas we argue about and so much of what Seiss presents from the scripture all sides will agree on. He gets into the over arching spiritual truths that apply to the whole bible and it glorifies Christ as any interpretation of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" should.

 

[GaryA]

The bible says nothing about people being beheaded.

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[GaryA]

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

Unsure what you mean by 'once the church is removed'? If the 'church' is removed (christians?) then who do you think is left to be beheaded?

How can 'the church' be removed and yet other believers remain to be beheaded? That doesn't square. How does God decide who stays and who leaves? Something isn't right about the rapture teaching.

Something certainly is not right about the 'pre-trib' rapture teaching.

Yes but WHO are the believers that are beheaded?

It is a part of the 'pre-trib' belief that "the church" will be removed ['pre-trib'] - thus, [also/thereby] removing the Holy Spirit from the Earth. Afterward, according to this belief, others will be saved and then beheaded for their faith. The problem with this is - without the presence of the Holy Spirit on the Earth - how can anyone possibly be saved? (No one is saved on their own; rather, the Lord must draw them to Him - which He does by-and-through the Holy Spirit.)

What I'm seeing is that Christians aren't going to be magically "raptured" out - we're going to remain here and be beheaded.

It looks like WE are the ones to be beheaded.

Bingo!

(You are correct.)



I believe:

~ The souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9 are the martyrs from the Dark Ages.

~ The martyrs mentioned in Revelation 6:11 that "that should be killed as they were" are those who will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

~ BOTH groups described above are "tribulation saints"...

 

[GaryA]

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.

The U.S. government has had concentration camps set up - complete with fully-functional guillotines - for many years...

Remember all of the military bases that Clinton shut down back in the 90s? Well, they were all converted to concentration camps - fully manned, fully operational - ever since. (my understanding)

I saw a video - several years ago - of one of the guillotines being "tested"/"used" - with a real live man. Someone video-recorded it from a window in a nearby building. ("It appeared to be very real, and was disheartening to watch.") They walked him out to the guillotine - placed him in it - and executed him. I saw them throw his head and body into one of those "large black 'plastic' containers" that you see multi-thousands of stacked in certain places around the country.

So - yeah - the camps are there - scattered about/around the country. (I have seen video-recordings of several of them also. And, they seem real enough...)

 

[saintrose]

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextAnd I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[saintrose]

The U.S. government has had concentration camps set up - complete with fully-functional guillotines - for many years...

Remember all of the military bases that Clinton shut down back in the 90s? Well, they were all converted to concentration camps - fully manned, fully operational - ever since. (my understanding)

I saw a video - several years ago - of one of the guillotines being "tested"/"used" - with a real live man. Someone video-recorded it from a window in a nearby building. ("It appeared to be very real, and was disheartening to watch.") They walked him out to the guillotine - placed him in it - and executed him. I saw them throw his head and body into one of those "large black 'plastic' containers" that you see multi-thousands of stacked in certain places around the country.

So - yeah - the camps are there - scattered about/around the country. (I have seen video-recordings of several of them also. And, they seem real enough...)

So you know about the FEMA camps?

Have you thought of leaving America? I've read of Expats.

 

[Adstar]

I don't like the term "Rapture" because it isn't in the bible. It came from man and I'm shocked Christians would adopt it.

The word Rapture is a latin translation of a term in the Bible.. ""caught up"" This term is in the following scripture..

1 Thessalonians 4: KJV
15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

What I'm seeing is that Christians aren't going to be magically "raptured" out - we're going to remain here and be beheaded.

Yes many Christians will be beheaded.. Some will survive by the grace of God to witness the end times wrath of God and then they shall be ""caught Up"" / raptured at the return of Jesus..

Psalms 91: KJV
2 "I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked."

It even fits with our government who has ordered guillotines. You're aware, I'm sure, that the powers that be have your name from your church roster and they know exactly where every Christian lives.

Well i am not a member of a church.. But yeah the government records every key stroke i make as i am replying in forums online like i am doing now.. They will have more then enough evidence of me being a Christian if the persecution starts while i am still alive..

It looks like WE are the ones to be beheaded.

What will be will be.. We shall see..

 

[Scribe]

I don't like the term "Rapture" because it isn't in the bible. It came from man and I'm shocked Christians would adopt it.

What I'm seeing is that Christians aren't going to be magically "raptured" out - we're going to remain here and be beheaded. It even fits with our government who has ordered guillotines. You're aware, I'm sure, that the powers that be have your name from your church roster and they know exactly where every Christian lives. It looks like WE are the ones to be beheaded.

Wait.... think about what you said. The New Testament is written in Greek. Greek came from man. The English also came from man.
"caught up" is the English translation from the Greek word harpazo . When the Greek scriptures were translated into Latin the word rapturo was used. When translated into English rapture is the word. To be "caught up" or snatched up is in the bible.

If you say you do not believe that the saints are going to be caught up and meet the Lord in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air then why would you believe anything else in the bible including anything about beheadings. If you say you believe saints will be caught up and meet the Lord in the air then you do believe in the rapture.

ALL ENGLISH WORDS CAME FROM MAN.

 

[GaryA]

So you know about the FEMA camps?

I know about a lot of things - I have been researching 'reality' for over 40 years.

Have you thought of leaving America? I've read of Expats.

Where would I go?

Soon enough, you will probably not be able to enter or exit most countries without "proof" that you took the vaccine...

 

[GaryA]

I believe:

~ The souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9 are the martyrs from the Dark Ages.

~ The martyrs mentioned in Revelation 6:11 that "that should be killed as they were" are those who will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

~ BOTH groups described above are "tribulation saints"...

Do you understand the significance of this with regard to End Times prophecy?

1) We are in the tribulation now - it started circa 70 A.D. and will end at a future time.
2) A 'pre-trib' rapture is literally impossible - because, the tribulation has already started.
3) The present time is "between" the two groups indicated in Revelation 6 referred to above.

 

[Jackson123]

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

Rapture happen after tribulation

 

[ChoirLoft]

I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.

There is no evidence Canada or the US is building concentration camps. If there is, kindly provide proof.

The rapture is false dogma invented by Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera about five hundred years ago. Its purpose is to confuse and divide protestants, which has been successful thus far.

Those who support the rapture NEVER submit to the suggestion they research the origin of the dogma and NEVER consider it to be false.

But consider this;

In Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37 are passages rapture believers like to quote to justify their aberrant doctrine. They quote Jesus, but REFUSE to read the last part of the same passage.

The disciples asked the Lord where the people who were 'taken' went? What was their destination? Jesus said they were taken to a place where dead bodies congregate - where vultures gather to eat their flesh and pick their bones. In other words, they are taken to HELL.

Its really tragic how people who are sucked into a false doctrine will support it even when Jesus Christ says otherwise.

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Which part of NOT do rapture believers NOT understand? When Jesus himself says it won't happen to the just, then it won't.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Those who support the rapture NEVER submit to the suggestion they research the origin of the dogma and NEVER consider it to be false.
But consider this;
In Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37 are passages rapture believers like to quote to justify their aberrant doctrine. They quote Jesus, but REFUSE to read the last part of the same passage.

Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37 are *not* Rapture verses (as I've pointed out numerous times).


In these passages (which are "Second Coming to the earth" passages), the "one taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day); and the one "left" is "left to enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children]" (just as in Noah's day--Compare Dan2:35 and Gen9:1 ["FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth"] with this passage under discussion)


["Rapture"-believer, here = D ... even "pre-trib Rapture"-believer, at that. (v.3 of 2Th - "that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." [note: he is "revealed" at the START of the 7 yrs, not its MIDDLE, nor its END], and "that day" from verse 3a refers to the Subject of verse 2, NOT the Subject of verse 1 (which v.3b does) ])

 

[ChoirLoft]

Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37 are *not* Rapture verses (as I've pointed out numerous times).


In these passages (which are "Second Coming to the earth" passages), the "one taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day); and the one "left" is "left to enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children]" (just as in Noah's day--Compare Dan2:35 and Gen9:1 ["FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth"] with this passage under discussion)


["Rapture"-believer, here = D ... even "pre-trib Rapture"-believer, at that. ]

Whether YOU use those verses to justify the false rapture doctrine or not is irrelevant. Most do and you know it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...