Ukraine the bad guy?

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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
#61
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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,318
6,690
113
#62
Clear thinking and rational? Maybe, but he completely underestimated Ukraine's willingness to resist, Europe's resolve to help Ukraine and overestimated his military capabilities. If he was running a company, he would have sent it bankrupt by now. Part of Putin's problem is his isolation. He is out of touch with reality. This happens to a lot of dictators. Hitler was committing divisions that did not exist to Germany's defence. That is not the mark of a rational being. No doubt Putin was rational at one time. Now he believes his own propaganda. It's pathetic and tragic. The human cost on both sides of the border is immense, as is the cost of waging this war. Putin will answer to God for his unjustified treatment of Ukraine and also his own troops. I would not like to be in his shoes on that day.
guess you have not seen the literal nazi regiments in ukraine.

and, as an american , i have a massive problem with sending tons and tons to ukraine while prices of goods are going straight up here.

get off the mainstream media cheer team.

the truth is ukraine an international slush fund for crooked politicians,

that is why they are all sending " aid".
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
#63
guess you have not seen the literal nazi regiments in ukraine.

and, as an american , i have a massive problem with sending tons and tons to ukraine while prices of goods are going straight up here.

get off the mainstream media cheer team.

the truth is ukraine an international slush fund for crooked politicians,

that is why they are all sending " aid".
100% bro. And we the sheeple get bled dry coming and going. The hopelessly gaslighted cheer it on while the wiseguys see the grifting for what it really is.

Some folks are born, made to wave the flag
Ooh, their red, white and blue
And when the band plays "Hail to the Chief"
Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord

It ain't me
It ain't me
I ain't no senator's son, son
It ain't me
It ain't me
I ain't no fortunate one, no
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,347
3,148
113
#64
guess you have not seen the literal nazi regiments in ukraine.

and, as an american , i have a massive problem with sending tons and tons to ukraine while prices of goods are going straight up here.

get off the mainstream media cheer team.

the truth is ukraine an international slush fund for crooked politicians,

that is why they are all sending " aid".
The West is entirely self interested. They are destroying Russia as a military power at no human cost to themselves. Much of the munitions being sent has a use by date anyway. America has been at peace for 17 years since 1776. American governments are addicted to war. At least no American troops are dying in this war. Be grateful for that.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
#67
They are destroying Russia as a military power at no human cost to themselves
On the contrary, in fact the Russians are in the process of building out their military at a massive scale. Factories are producing literally 24/7. They are in effect remilitarizing and modernizing at a scale far in excess of ANY of the EU powers. No comparison whatsoever.

And don't forget......most of the Russian boots on the ground are Wagner mercs and DPR/LPR forces. The regular Russian army has hardly been called to task. While AFU is conscripting the bottom of the barrel. Thats all they have left.

Oh and another thing......Blinky and Lavrov just had a meeting of late. At Blinky's request. No doubt to discuss terms.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,669
6,728
113
#68
Clear thinking and rational? Maybe, but he completely underestimated Ukraine's willingness to resist, Europe's resolve to help Ukraine and overestimated his military capabilities. If he was running a company, he would have sent it bankrupt by now. Part of Putin's problem is his isolation. He is out of touch with reality. This happens to a lot of dictators. Hitler was committing divisions that did not exist to Germany's defence. That is not the mark of a rational being. No doubt Putin was rational at one time. Now he believes his own propaganda. It's pathetic and tragic. The human cost on both sides of the border is immense, as is the cost of waging this war. Putin will answer to God for his unjustified treatment of Ukraine and also his own troops. I would not like to be in his shoes on that day.
This assumes you understand Putin's overall goal, which you don't.

Also comparing Putin to Hitler is not in any way comforting. Yes, Hitler was irrational, but that became obvious after he had burned down most of the Eurasian continent.

I think that like Sun Tzu taught, you don't underestimate your enemy. So if I give Putin respect and assume that what has happened is what he anticipate would happen it results in a very different interpretation to the facts.

NATO and the US had displayed a pattern of expanding into the USSR's former region ever since the collapse of the USSR and finally they had crossed a red line by trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. 20 million died in Ukraine in the last WW, and it was the highway into Russia that Germany used. It is every easy to roll through Ukraine rather than the mountain range to the north. So it is not absurd that Russia would think that Ukraine is essential to their national defense. At the very least talk of Ukraine joining NATO violated the treaty they had with Ukraine when it sought independence. Now if Putin is a logical, reasonable person who has carefully weighed the evidence he would have to to consider that this expansion of NATO was not an oversight or accidental but rather intentional. Therefore when they invaded Ukraine they had to know that this could result in a war with Ukraine and the USA. They also must know that their economy is a very small percent of the economies of the US and EU and so the idea of fighting a war against Ukraine + NATO + the US would not work out if it was conventional.

Still if I felt I had been backed into a corner and it was fight or die I would do the best I could which would include making an alliance with China, Iran, and North Korea (which can arguably be seen as a fact). I would also realize that the only chance I have at winning this war would be to take out the US and the only way I can do that is with a surprise nuclear attack. Now you would have to justify such an attack with the rest of the world, that would mean top military and political leaders would have to clearly and expressly warn the US of a possible nuclear attack (they have done that), they would need to get out of nuclear treaties (they have done that), they would need to have a weapon that could evade our defenses (they do have such a weapon), I'd put that weapon 5 minutes off the US coastline (they are on a destroyer off the coast of Bermuda, they travel at mach 6 and could be in Washington DC in 5 minutes), we also believe that their submarines are parked off our East and West coast. Now you don't fire nuclear missiles at the US without being absolutely sure they will work, so in the last few days they ran a drill with those Zircon missiles in which they jammed our radar, cellular and internet for 34 seconds. But even with all that you would still expect compelling evidence for why this was necessary. Russia is claiming they have evidence that the US used bioweapons labs in Ukraine to commit crimes against humanity, after a worldwide pandemic linked to the US and a vaccine that is looking like a kill shot the world will definitely see this as a valid reason if Russia has the evidence.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,318
6,690
113
#69
The West is entirely self interested. They are destroying Russia as a military power at no human cost to themselves. Much of the munitions being sent has a use by date anyway. America has been at peace for 17 years since 1776. American governments are addicted to war. At least no American troops are dying in this war. Be grateful for that.
can't argue with that..
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,932
1,118
113
#71
Where are people getting this idea... "PUTIN WONT STOP IN UKRAINE!!! HE GONNA CONQUER THE WORLD!!!"

Seriously. Where does that idea come from, and where is it ever explained in a logical way? Because I hear a lot of people saying it- but not saying why they believe that. I want an answer; and not a stupid one like "because he's a DICTATOR!!!".
I just get the impression Putin wants to recollect all the satellite countries that were once under USSR's control. I was there when USSR disbanded in the 1990s and I always thought that this "democracy" wouldn't last. So when Russia finally invaded Ukraine, I wasn't surprised. Only, "What took you so long?"

Other satellite countries were willing to align with Russia without even a fight, like Belurus. When Russia has "acquired" Ukraine, it will go after the others as well, like Latvia and Lithuania. I fell so sorry for those people....
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,195
6,607
113
62
#72
Where are people getting this idea... "PUTIN WONT STOP IN UKRAINE!!! HE GONNA CONQUER THE WORLD!!!"

Seriously. Where does that idea come from, and where is it ever explained in a logical way? Because I hear a lot of people saying it- but not saying why they believe that. I want an answer; and not a stupid one like "because he's a DICTATOR!!!".
Because one of the tenets of Communism espoused in the past was to make the whole world like themselves.
You may say that possibility seems most improbable in our time, but it's not a new notion.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,932
1,118
113
#73
guess you have not seen the literal nazi regiments in ukraine.

and, as an american , i have a massive problem with sending tons and tons to ukraine while prices of goods are going straight up here.

get off the mainstream media cheer team.

the truth is ukraine an international slush fund for crooked politicians,

that is why they are all sending " aid".

I don't pay attention about the smearing on both sides - the propaganda is merely to try to get you to support their side whoever they may be.

All I know is that I don't want America - American's soldiers - to be involved in this war. I don't want any of them dying for either side or wasting our supplies on them.

What a mess this. I really want the Lord to come back soon.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
#74
Because one of the tenets of Communism espoused in the past was to make the whole world like themselves.
You may say that possibility seems most improbable in our time, but it's not a new notion.
Russia is not communist bro. Long gone.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,004
8,373
113
#75
All I know is that I don't want America - American's soldiers - to be involved in this war. I don't want any of them dying for either side or wasting our supplies on them.
They will be if sniff sniff Zelensky o_O gets his way.....

 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,266
1,049
113
#76
Because one of the tenets of Communism espoused in the past was to make the whole world like themselves.
You may say that possibility seems most improbable in our time, but it's not a new notion.
But you know what's NOT a tenet of communism? Suicide by mutually assured destruction. He's not attacking a NATO country- Putin might be a jerk, but he's not a retard.

If Russia is struggling to Crack Ukraine now, how is Putin going to attack an actual NATO country. It doesn't make sense. He doesn't have the opportunity, capability, or intent by the looks of things.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,932
1,118
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#77
They will be if sniff sniff Zelensky o_O gets his way.....


Yeah obviously there is propaganda against Zelensky but Ukrainians are stuck with him. If no one helps Ukraine, the people themselves are screwed. Not that I want America to join this fight, but if we're forced to - it wouldn't be for Zelensky, it would be for the people of Ukraine. Either way, America needs to try to avoid joining either side. I REALLY don't want America in this.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,932
1,118
113
#78
But you know what's NOT a tenet of communism? Suicide by mutually assured destruction. He's not attacking a NATO country- Putin might be a jerk, but he's not a retard.

If Russia is struggling to Crack Ukraine now, how is Putin going to attack an actual NATO country. It doesn't make sense. He doesn't have the opportunity, capability, or intent by the looks of things.

Yeah, why is the war dragging on as long as it has? I thought it would only take a few months. But if he's not able to win it quick enough, maybe he should just pack it all in and go home.....
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,266
1,049
113
#80
Yeah obviously there is propaganda against Zelensky but Ukrainians are stuck with him. If no one helps Ukraine, the people themselves are screwed. Not that I want America to join this fight, but if we're forced to - it wouldn't be for Zelensky, it would be for the people of Ukraine. Either way, America needs to try to avoid joining either side. I REALLY don't want America in this.
I don't either. In fact if I were a politician in any country, I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole, because it all so shady.

The worst part of it is... we very well could be "in this" already. When I think about the Nordstream sabotage, and some of the strange happenings to our infrastructure in the US, I can't help but wonder.