True Born Again Christians Have Eternal Security

[Radius]

I have got to ask are you saying you are sinless without sin?

Yes he is. He emphatically states that he is sinless right now. He has said so.

 

[wdeaton65]

Yes he is. He emphatically states that he is sinless right now. He has said so.

So is Yeshua here on CC under the name sinless? That would be the only way this could be true or have I missed something.

 

[Radius]

So is Yeshua here on CC under the name sinless? That would be the only way this could be true or have I missed something.

lol.
If you have noticed, check out the are our sins really burned up thread. I've tried getting him to admit he is a sinner and you will see how hard a task it is.

 

[wdeaton65]

lol.
If you have noticed, check out the are our sins really burned up thread. I've tried getting him to admit he is a sinner and you will see how hard a task it is.

Maybe I should find out what sinless thinks sin is. I guess that sinse he says he has no sin he has already miss the mark but I am sure there have been plenty that have pointed this out to him I hope.

 

[Radius]

Maybe I should find out what sinless thinks sin is. I guess that sinse he says he has no sin he has already miss the mark but I am sure there have been plenty that have pointed this out to him I hope.

You're right. I'll just let him explain it to you I guess. It gets pretty exhausting trying to convince this Christian he still sins

 

[wdeaton65]

You're right. I'll just let him explain it to you I guess. It gets pretty exhausting trying to convince this Christian he still sins

I will check out the other thread. Blessings all

 

[sinless]

Yes he is. He emphatically states that he is sinless right now. He has said so.

Yes as of this moment I am completely sin free

 

[sinless]

So is Yeshua here on CC under the name sinless? That would be the only way this could be true or have I missed something.

Galatians 2:[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[allthisstuff]

Sinless, I think it's important to understand that sometimes we even sin without knowing. We are just humans. Clay vessels made of dirt. Do we always know the perfectly will of the Father? Let alone sometimes??? Pastor Greg Laurie once made a good analogy. When you're wearing black pants and you go about your day, at the end of the day you might think to yourself, "My pants are spotless." But, if you go about the next day in white pants, at the end of the day it's easier to spot those stains from the burrito you ate at lunch. In similar fashion, the closer you get to God, the more you realize your faults against Him.

[h=3]Matthew 22:37[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Can you honestly say to yourself that you love God with every single fiber of your being? Or that the love you demonstrate for Him is worthy of His sacrifice and devotion for you? I fail to meet this standard constantly. And I believe that, as hard as we try, we always miss the mark. God fills the rest with grace.

And on top of that, you people in this thread are fighting back and forth with so much bitterness it seems. We are commanded to love one another as brothers. If we really find fault in each other, we should address each others with grace, doing so in hope to correct our brother with fault to help secure his soul.

[h=3]John 13:34-35[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]34 [/SUP]So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:4-7[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud [SUP]5 [/SUP]or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. [SUP]6 [/SUP]It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

Let's repent of all this in Christ's name.

God bless.

 

[sinless]

Sinless, I think it's important to understand that sometimes we even sin without knowing. We are just humans. Clay vessels made of dirt. Do we always know the perfectly will of the Father? Let alone sometimes??? Pastor Greg Laurie once made a good analogy. When you're wearing black pants and you go about your day, at the end of the day you might think to yourself, "My pants are spotless." But, if you go about the next day in white pants, at the end of the day it's easier to spot those stains from the burrito you ate at lunch. In similar fashion, the closer you get to God, the more you realize your faults against Him.

I totally agree, and would add the more we realize our faults the more we rid ourselves of those faults and align our lives to God's will

If our hearts, will, and motives our pure before God then He will not hold unintentional sins against us

 

[homwardbound]

1 John 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

do you not know the context of this letter by John to a leader of a fellowship that was made up of ones that did not believe that Christ came in the flesh, known as knostics, since all sin is of the flesh Christ could not have come in the flesh, they denied that he came in the flesh and that hey since they believed they themselves did not have a sin nature.
So John wrote starting out with
that which was from the begining which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
So not to believe Christ came in the Flesh is corrected here, and to not believe one was born in the flesh and not have a sin nature in need of Christ and Christ's forgiveness at the cross is wrong teaching.
Therefore if you will acknowledge that he came in the flesh and have sinned or even could sin again, then you can and will recieve the forgiveness provided for you at the cross.
now the original greek of 1 John 1:9 sates that you will recieve the forgiveness that is already provided for you at the cross
And there is no where in here at 1 John or 2 John or 3 John that it ever states one is to ask for forgiveness over and over if one sins again
It does state if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous, which is the way the only way anyone can approch the throne of Grace, which is only by and through Jesus there is no more sacrifice for sin to accomplish this it is done at the cross, we are prefected forever in Christ and this is not for anyone to take advantage of as the Corinthians did and is why Paul wrote them about their misunderstanding of this miraculous Gospel of Christ.
Or to think we are sinless because if one ever becomes sinless then one ahs no need for Christ as Paul exclainmed in 2Cor. 12 and thus exclaimed from then on he will glory in his iniquities which shows he was weak and not sinless that because of ever thinking we was ever sinless pride would be knocking on his door and think he was someone special above others which he was not. So God would send him a messenger of Satan to buffet him, you, me or anyone else that that they were above measure of anyone else. For God's grace is sufficient and in our weakness God's strength is made perfect

 

[homwardbound]

Just because people do not like what you say, does not mean it was not spoken in love.

Jesus was crucified for the things He said.

Religious people are offended by the gospel no matter how lovingly it is spoken to them

And if it is not spoken of by the Spirit it is of no value and God speaks by the Spirit of God in the Love of God as best described in 1 Cor 13

 

[homwardbound]

What particular passage of scripture causes you to believe we cannot be completely free from sin here and now?

one can onlybe free from by one day at a time and it is arrogant to think that one willnever sin again I will always have evil surrounding me trying to get throughthe armor of God that I have on and this armor is not mine it is God's Eph. 6and I am a partaker in this trusting God one day at a time, so it is possibleone day at a time that I might not sin again, but I can't predict the future asyou already admitted to that you can't predict it.
But you andI know we can take one day at a time and trust god to keep us and God by thistrust will do exactly this.
I can't saythat I will never ever sin again, That would be arrogant of me, I can say iHave learned to trust one day at a time die to the flesh daily and believe andbe, God thus far has sustained me and somehow I know God will continue to, yetno matter GOD gets all the credit for this period, not I, you, or anyone elseit is all God and none of me, it is by belief in his finished work at the crossthat he did before I was ever here on earth and I am thankful beyond measure

 

[homwardbound]

Yes as of this moment I am completely sin free

Okay I understand at this moment you are sinless, Therefore have you ever sinned in the past even thouh it is forgiven?
And do you still have the free choiuce os ever sinning again and or you capable of ever sinning again even though youchoose not to?
And is this choice from you? Are you able to keep you without the need of God from any future sin?

 

[starfield]

Starfield our salvation is not determined upon whether we persevere in the faith.

According to the scriptures it is...
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In 2 Timothy 4:3, the Bible tells us of a time when Christians will not endure sound Doctrine. Yet those Christians are still saved. The Bible in another passage, in 1 Timothy 4:1, the Bible also says that some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. Read it. That's what the Bible clearly says. And those two passages of Scripture which I gave you is focusing on mainly Christians. But I do not see anywhere in that passage where it shows the Christian losing his salvation. That's because true Born again Christians are eternally secure.

That passage clearly states that some will depart from the faith so they can't still remain born again believers.

A Christian's salvation is not dependent on whether or not he continues in the faith.

11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. - 2 Timothy 11:13 (King James Bible)

If a Christian denies Christ by not standing for Him and His word, that Christian will be denied a reign in the coming Millennial Kingdom when Jesus Christ will be physically reigning on the Throne from Jerusalem. Do you see the context Starfield? If we suffer as in suffering for Christ, we shall reign with Him. That is in the Millennial Kingdom. No suffering for Christ, no reign in the Millennial Kingdom.

Now notice what the next verse says: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. So if a Christian gets so carnal and departs from the faith and stops believing, he is still a part of the Body of Christ because Christ cannot deny Himself. That Christian is still a child of God. He can't lose his salvation because he is part of the Body of Christ, he is bone of His Bone and flesh of His flesh (Again, see Eph. 5:30).

ChosenbyHim, that passage is in direct contradiction to what you are teaching. Notice that verse 12 says "if we deny him, he also will deny us" then verse 13 says "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful", faithful to what? He abides faithful to His promise stated in verse 12 that if we deny Him He will deny us, because He cannot deny Himself. The passage does not say "if we believe not, yet he will not deny us: he cannot deny himself" yet are claiming that it says so. If a believer departs from the faith, becomes a devil worshiper, and lives in carnality, they won't remain children of God and they will be renounced before the Heavenly Father in Heaven, for God is no respecter of persons. Furthermore, Paul was quoting Jesus when he wrote that; take a look at the words of the Lord Jesus: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven (Matt 10:33).

To say that once saved you're always saved even though you stop believing in Jesus contradicts God's word.

And those passages you gave do not teach that a believer can become lost again. That is what you are reading into the passages with your private interpretation. You have to compare Scripture with Scripture. Let me ask you Starfield, was the Prodigal Son a Christian or was he a Jew?

So you're saying the teachings of Jesus Christ don't apply to believers today?
Jesus was teaching a valuable lesson of repentance in the parable of the prodigal son which should not be overlooked. A believer can become lost again, can err from the truth, shipwreck their faith, fall from grace, in which they would need to repent and return to the Lord and seek His mercy. That was the case of the churches in Revelation.

Remember, you have to keep things in context. You say Romans 8:29 is only for those who remain stedfast in the faith okay where does it teach that in Romans 8:29? Could you show me?

Read verse 1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". It's the same chapter so vs. 29-39 applies to those who aren't walking after the flesh but after the Spirit (who have steadfast faith, not spurious faith).

What you are teaching is works salvation Starfield. If our salvation can be lost, then our salvation is based on our works and not on the power of God to keep us. But our salvation is not based on our works.

No, I am not teaching works-based salvation but discerning whether genuine faith is present or not. Genuine faith produces fruit as the bible says we are saved by grace to do good works which the Lord ordained (Eph 2:8-10).
Gal 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

You, on the other hand, are teaching that God's grace is a license to sin since you claim that a believer can become carnal and depart from the faith and still be in a justified state. This doctrine you are propagating was orchestrated by Satan in the beginning: "You can sin and not surely die" (Gen 3:3-4). Satan assured Eve that she could disobey God and still be in right terms with Him and this lead to their fall from grace to disgrace. It's the same thing these OSAS preachers are resounding from the pulpits and masses have fallen for the lies of these wolves in sheep's clothing. No wonder why Jesus said narrow is the way that leads to life and very few will find it. Many that think they are on the narrow way are actually on the broad way to destruction because of this damnable doctrine that comforts you in sin. What a pity!

If the keeping your salvation was dependent on you, you would have lost it long ago. And if my salvation was dependent on whether or not I persevered in the faith, or on my ability grow in sanctification everyday, or just in my own ability in general, then my salvation would have been lost a long time ago as well! The keeping of salvation is not up to us. It is God who keeps us by His power (See 1 Peter 1:5).

Yes we are kept by the power of God while we surrender our lives to Him. Read further down:
1 Peter 1:13-16
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Well I agree with you that Sanctification is something that is definitely not to be ignored. But Sanctification and Salvation are two different things. Sanctification comes after salvation. And sanctification determines our fellowship with the Lord while on this earth but it does not affect our salvation. And that verse you quoted from Hebrews 12:4 is clearly talking about your testimony among other people. If we don't live holy and sanctified lives before the Lord, then the lost world won't see the Lord Jesus in us, and our testimony among the lost world will be a poor one. That's what the passage in Hebrews 12 is mainly talking about. That's why just a few verses earlier Paul talks about the chastisement and correction which God gives to those of whom are His sons.

That's correct to a degree, the lost won't see Christ in us, but that verse also says that we won't see God (denied entry into His kingdom) without holiness.

Can you see the context Starfield? It is the correction and chastisement of the Lord that brings and yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness in our lives and it helps us grow in holiness and sanctification. What your saying basically is that if a born again Christian does not live a holy life or does not persevere in holy living, then he will not get into Heaven. But that's not what the Scripture is talking about. It's talking about our personal testimony among the lost world. That is what the Context in those Scriptures is teaching.

Oh yes it is. Read the passage again: Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Yes I believe it is important to warn the believer about backsliding and falling into apostacy. I believe it is very important. But one thing you have to get Starfield, is that no true Born again Christian can lose their salvation.

So you're saying here that one can backslide and apostatise and still be in a justified state? But that's not what Jesus taught. The prodigal son was spiritually dead while he was gallivanting with harlots and wallowing in the pigsty. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry (Luke 15:24).

If they live a life of sin down here in this life, then they will have nothing to show for it in Eternity. There are many things a Christian can lose: his health, his money, his reputation, his testimony, his joy, the joy of his salvation, the assurance of his salvation ( not salvation itself but the ASSURANCE of salvation), his life, his rewards, his crowns, and his millennial inheritance. Basically the only thing a Christian cannot lose is his salvation.

Once again that is not what the bible teaches.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[starfield]

It depicts a man who was converted but had problems in the flesh. It depicts the struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. It also illustrates for the believer the perspective and mental attitude they should have toward this kind of conflict that every born again believer will face in their life as they learn how to receive and grow in grace and not live in condemnation. The regeneration of Paul's life, when he received the Spirit, was what caused the conflict to take place, this is why he learned how to glory in the cross that crucified his flesh so that he could walk by faith in the Spirit and not according to the impulses and dictates of the flesh even when he did good. It all related to his body of sin and death and the fact that sin was still occupying the members of his own body. To mortify the deeds of the flesh the believer learns how to receive grace and put those things off as he puts on the Lord Jesus Christ and his righteousness. He may fail or have periods of failure but that does not change his standing with God but makes him realize his need for an abundance of grace.

The Romans wretch does not characterize a regenerated life but an unregenerate under the law of sin and bondage of his flesh (Rom 7:14) hence his cry for deliverance from his wretched state. Though he desired to do what is right he was still fulfilling the desires of the flesh anyway because he had no empowerment from God. Then Chapter 8 speaks of the victorious life in Christ which is what we receive by the Spirit's transforming power and His indwelling presence. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2).

 

[sinless]

Okay I understand at this moment you are sinless,

Yep

Therefore have you ever sinned in the past even thouh it is forgiven?

Yes

And do you still have the free choiuce os ever sinning again and or you capable of ever sinning again even though youchoose not to?

Yes

And is this choice from you?

God has chosen to allow to choose

Are you able to keep you without the need of God from any future sin?

Not without God, no I could not

 

[coconut]

The Romans wretch does not characterize a regenerated life but an unregenerate under the law of sin and bondage of his flesh (Rom 7:14) hence his cry for deliverance from his wretched state. Though he desired to do what is right he was still fulfilling the desires of the flesh anyway because he had no empowerment from God. Then Chapter 8 speaks of the victorious life in Christ which is what we receive by the Spirit's transforming power and His indwelling presence. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2).

Does Romans 7:24 & 25 add anything to your understanding? Read it.

 

[GreenNnice]

I'm amazed at Starfield's knowledge of scripture. I think we need to be really careful with holding onto our doctrines so dearly. Instead, we should look to the Word of God and ask for wisdom to see it as it really is.










True faith bears works. Works do not save us, but true faith will make us move in accordance to God's will.

If there is anyone out there, youth especially, who is in doubt about their salvation, I encourage you to watch this sermon by Paul Washer on youtube The Shocking Youth Message (Paul Washer) - YouTube There is a lot of bad doctrine out there floating around, but I don't think there are many as deadly as the doctrine of 'once saved always saved.' Read the Word of God yourselves and ask in the name of Jesus for wisdom.

God bless guys.

edit- Just wanted to reaffirm how awesome starfield is

Where does the Bible ever say our future sins are already forgiven? BORN OF God one does not sin, sinfree, because COVERED by The blood, believing, through faith, in His blood, past, present, future, covered Get it, sinfreed

I'm not amazed at starryfields, OK, akready, I AM ! But, truth-fukly speaking, milady, she just does God's work as a pure vessel of His, so, in other words, BE amazed at how just and true God is to those who replicate their life, knowing by faith (there is no such thing as true faith, you just better have FAITH to do His works or you're doing things 'dead.' ) they will obey Him and THAT obedience is making them right with God. The Lord leads, never forget, He wants YOUR obedience, that means walking with Him, not your doing your own thing, whether it is past sins trying to make up for or just trying to get sweet goods from God, a car, a better job, so, you give a $1000 to your church or charity. Obey His Spirit! Walk with Him, and, you do NOT entertain acts of The flesh. Will.you fall, fail, SURE! , that hust proves tbe Enemy is alive and well, wanting to drag you to his place of burning , being saved, as if by fire. Nice spin to 1 Cor. 3:15, eh.
Yes, you ARE chosen by Him. But, you better follow Him or you or NOT a son or daugnter of God. And, es, THAT is Scripture
Starryfields perfectly plates salvation in her post above this one and elsewhere in this thread. pray to God for understanding , to openly read His words spoken thru her

 

[Bennay]

I used to be a dispensationalist and I am now so glad I no longer believe this rubbish beacause it is in fact the opposite to what the word teaches.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.