Revelation 11:1, 2

[Laodicea]

Ok. If that is so, where is your definition verse? I never see one that justifies verse 2 unless there are the Gentiles that overtook Heaven. Not to mention, them other people will be in control IN HEAVEN for 42 months meaning God lost control of Heaven!!!!

Sounds good. I like it.

The court has to be the earth. In the court is where they had the sacrifices took place and since Jesus gave His life here on earth then the court has to be the earth.

 

[Bistabuster]

The court has to be the earth. In the court is where they had the sacrifices took place and since Jesus gave His life here on earth then the court has to be the earth.

Hmmmm, Temple is in Heaven but that court is not. Let me see if I can picture this right. The Gentiles are controlling the temple WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, but, the court on earth has no Gentiles there because all the Gentiles are running the show in Heaven, but for only 42 months. Then they have to leave.

Got it.

 

[Laodicea]

Hmmmm, Temple is in Heaven but that court is not. Let me see if I can picture this right. The Gentiles are controlling the temple WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, but, the court on earth has no Gentiles there because all the Gentiles are running the show in Heaven, but for only 42 months. Then they have to leave.

Got it.

Why don't you use hermanutics for the 42 months? You will find it mentioned in Revelation 13 then put the 2 together to see what kind of a picture you get?

 

[Bistabuster]

Why don't you use hermanutics for the 42 months? You will find it mentioned in Revelation 13 then put the 2 together to see what kind of a picture you get?

You cleared it up for me. If the temple is in Heaven, as you say, then this is the only explanation that it is giving my. But, if you want to change the position of the temple......well, that's up to you. As long as you say the temple is in Heaven, so are the Gentiles. Controlling it in Heaven. I guess God isn't all that powerful or he's allowing sin to infiltrate Heaven. You make the call.

 

[Laodicea]

You cleared it up for me. If the temple is in Heaven, as you say, then this is the only explanation that it is giving my. But, if you want to change the position of the temple......well, that's up to you. As long as you say the temple is in Heaven, so are the Gentiles. Controlling it in Heaven. I guess God isn't all that powerful or he's allowing sin to infiltrate Heaven. You make the call.

You people are the ones teaching hermanutic principles and if you are going to be true to the principles you people teach then you have to teach that the temple is in heaven. Also where does the Bible say the Gentiles control the temple.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Rev 11:1-2 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Can you show us where Scripture says Moses and Aaron are candlesticks and olive trees.Can you show us where Scripture tells us “the God of the earth” is paraoh?
Rev1 tells us seven candlesticks are seven churches (remember churches aren’t buildings but the believers themselves) so wouldn’t two candlesticks be two churches(groups of believers)? Romans tells us the olive trees consist of Jews and gentiles, so wouldn’t that be identifying which two groups of believers the candlesticks refer to? How does 2+2 =2 unless the first two represents groups and the second 2 identifies those groups?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If God/Word is unchanging then if candlesticks are churches in Rev1 they will still be churches in Rev11. If God/Word is unchanging and olive trees are Jew and Gentiles in Romans they will still be Jews and Gentiles in Rev 11. Nothing difficult about it if we accept what the unchanging God/Word tells us.


No we are not seeing a “picture of the call for the liberation of God's people from bondage to the great city called Sodom and Egypt”. But if you think you can provide a Scripturally sound hermeneutic study of the Scriptures that says it is, you are welcome to try.


Are you suggesting that those who disagree with you are those who believe not?
Good verse but I suspect it applies to those who toss out the definitions the inspired Word of God provides so they can rely on their private interpretaions and guess work theology, not those who use the definitions Scripture itself provides for terms used figuratively that describe literal events.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I know it is not Moses and Aaron. I was just comparing the time to it to see if it jostled any ideas.

The measuring of the temple was in preparation for it's rebuilding after the Jews were liberated from Babylon. So that too supports that it pictures liberation from a spiritual bondage. The delay in the measuring the courtyard is because that is where the great multitude of non-elect seen coming out of the great tribulation are. The portion of the temple that is measured is the spiritual temple of which the elect according to Ephesians 2:18-22 are as building stones placed upon the foundation aligned with the chief corner stone.

So your two witnesses are going to be an elect group and a group comparable to that great multitude of non-elect, both having a candle, the flame of which represents the Holy Spirit's blessing upon them. And one olive tree is the natural complete with it's grafted in Gentile elect, whereas the other is a wild olive tree representing those non-elect.

This is pictured in many different ways in the OT. The fact that those things picture it does not mean they are going to be exactly alike. For example, a cooperation between the elect and the non-elect to do God's work in this earth was pictured by Jehu representing God's anointed and Jehonadab the son of Rechab at 2 Kings 10:15. Jehonadab was taken up onto Jehu's chariot and road with him into battle. They in turn picture these two groups today.

That great city called Sodom and Egypt is a picture of Christendom and there are many directions the OT points to that.

 

[Bistabuster]

You people are the ones teaching hermanutic principles and if you are going to be true to the principles you people teach then you have to teach that the temple is in heaven. Also where does the Bible say the Gentiles control the temple.

I'm agreeing with you. If the temple is in Heaven and the Gentiles are controlling the court, if you were to look at it another possible way, the temple is untouchable by the gentiles but the court is. Why would God mention the Heaven temple when the court is the one in danger for 42 months? Furthermore, why would the Gentiles want to rule an empty court? After all, the temple is in Heaven.

So, that must be it. The Gentiles are controlling an empty court in the holy city for 42 months.

Now, I got what you're saying. It's perfectly clear now.

 

[Bistabuster]

I know it is not Moses and Aaron. I was just comparing the time to it to see if it jostled any ideas.

The measuring of the temple was in preparation for it's rebuilding after the Jews were liberated from Babylon. So that too supports that it pictures liberation from a spiritual bondage. The delay in the measuring the courtyard is because that is where the great multitude of non-elect seen coming out of the great tribulation are. The portion of the temple that is measured is the spiritual temple of which the elect according to Ephesians 2:18-22 are as building stones placed upon the foundation aligned with the chief corner stone.

So your two witnesses are going to be an elect group and a group comparable to that great multitude of non-elect, both having a candle, the flame of which represents the Holy Spirit's blessing upon them. And one olive tree is the natural complete with it's grafted in Gentile elect, whereas the other is a wild olive tree representing those non-elect.

This is pictured in many different ways in the OT. The fact that those things picture it does not mean they are going to be exactly alike. For example, a cooperation between the elect and the non-elect to do God's work in this earth was pictured by Jehu representing God's anointed and Jehonadab the son of Rechab at 2 Kings 10:15. Jehonadab was taken up onto Jehu's chariot and road with him into battle. They in turn picture these two groups today.

That great city called Sodom and Egypt is a picture of Christendom and there are many directions the OT points to that.

You too? Are you defining NT words with OT definitions? Are you saying Rev 1 and Rom 11 are not good enough for you?

I bet you're still waiting for it to happen. Don't wait too long for you will never see it. Why rebuild a temple whrn the one we already have is doing a fine job of what you want the new temple to do. The current one has been doing it for over 1300 years and you want a new one to do the EXACT SAME THING?

Well, ok. If that's what you want. You got it! Me, personally? I see it not happening! God won't make a special event just for you and He won't make it for me either. His plan is His plan. If you don't like it, tough. If I got it wrong as well. Tough. God's plan still carries on!

 

[Laodicea]

I'm agreeing with you. If the temple is in Heaven and the Gentiles are controlling the court, if you were to look at it another possible way, the temple is untouchable by the gentiles but the court is. Why would God mention the Heaven temple when the court is the one in danger for 42 months? Furthermore, why would the Gentiles want to rule an empty court? After all, the temple is in Heaven.

So, that must be it. The Gentiles are controlling an empty court in the holy city for 42 months.

Now, I got what you're saying. It's perfectly clear now.

Because Revelation is symbolic then the Holy City mentioned in Rev 11:2 may not be the literal city Jerusalem but God's people. Look at the other texts on the 42 months.
Revelation 13:5-7 KJV
(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
(6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
(7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:25 KJV
(25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So Revelation 11:1,2 has the true worshipers within in verse 1 and those who are not true worshipers of God without verse 2.
Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[Laodicea]

You too? Are you defining NT words with OT definitions? Are you saying Rev 1 and Rom 11 are not good enough for you?

I bet you're still waiting for it to happen. Don't wait too long for you will never see it. Why rebuild a temple whrn the one we already have is doing a fine job of what you want the new temple to do. The current one has been doing it for over 1300 years and you want a new one to do the EXACT SAME THING?

Well, ok. If that's what you want. You got it! Me, personally? I see it not happening! God won't make a special event just for you and He won't make it for me either. His plan is His plan. If you don't like it, tough. If I got it wrong as well. Tough. God's plan still carries on!

There is a problem with saying the olive tree in Revelation 11 is the same as Romans 11. Romans 11 is a single tree while Revelation 11 is two trees. We need to go to the verse that talks about two olive trees as in Zechariah. Same with the candlesticks which Revelation 11 has two while the churches are seven candlesticks. We need to go to the part in the Bible that matches the description.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

You too? Are you defining NT words with OT definitions? Are you saying Rev 1 and Rom 11 are not good enough for you?

I bet you're still waiting for it to happen. Don't wait too long for you will never see it. Why rebuild a temple whrn the one we already have is doing a fine job of what you want the new temple to do. The current one has been doing it for over 1300 years and you want a new one to do the EXACT SAME THING?

Well, ok. If that's what you want. You got it! Me, personally? I see it not happening! God won't make a special event just for you and He won't make it for me either. His plan is His plan. If you don't like it, tough. If I got it wrong as well. Tough. God's plan still carries on!

No, that is not true. The reason the temple in heaven has been measured (the one described at Hebrews 12) is that it is what was the focus of being built as been on since Pentecost until now. It is actually on earth but hidden in heaven in the sense that it is protected of God so that no man may touch it. God alone says who it's members are and no man can destroy it.

The courtyard not being measured does not mean that the non-elect have not always also been present, but that it is what gets worked with and regenerated to God through that temple of elect (the head of which is Christ) during the thousand year kingdom shortly to come. It was not measured now because it was not being rebuilt now.

That, too, parallels how when the Jews were first liberated from captivity to Babylon they first fortified the walls protecting the temple area and proceeded to deal with the unholy state which was afflicted upon the temple, beginning with it's holy places and proceeding from there outward.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I should add that the courtyard compares to the earth-wide Israel in Revelation 7 from out of which the Saints are chosen. And that area is also where the Saints do their work of helping all to come to Christ. That is why it is possible for war to be done with the Saints, by fighting to confuse people's minds toward recognizing them and even confusing them if possible (Matthew 24:24) but yet their enemies can only ever really achieve the illusion of death to the saints, from which the Saints will rise back up with perfect power.

We know Jesus said, "He that believeth in me shall never die." Don't we.

 

[Bistabuster]

There is a problem with saying the olive tree in Revelation 11 is the same as Romans 11. Romans 11 is a single tree while Revelation 11 is two trees. We need to go to the verse that talks about two olive trees as in Zechariah. Same with the candlesticks which Revelation 11 has two while the churches are seven candlesticks. We need to go to the part in the Bible that matches the description.

Since you say we must use hermanutics, and you say you do, then the temple mentioned in Rev 1-2 must be us! As WE are the temple of God. 1 Cor 3:16 states that fact. So, if hermanutics are to apply, Rev 1-2 must also fall into that rule. Just one problem. I don't have a Gentile controlling me and I do not have a court inside of me. Pertaining to the rule of hermanutics, John is measuring me AS the temple of God and all the people that worship inside of me! So, Rev 2 means if somebody doesn't have the temple, the Gentiles rule there and shall remain there for 42 months.

Also, let's not forget Matt 21:12. Jesus came into some unfortunate people (remember people ARE the temple of God, hermanutics, remember? We must use it everywhere we see it.) and overturned our tables and the seats that sold doves! So, according to this, we, as a temple of God, need our tables turned over and told to sell these items elsewhere?

OK. You got it. I will start this weekend with the temple and apply this rule everywhere I see it.

Thanks. You were a big help.

 

[Laodicea]

Since you say we must use hermanutics, and you say you do, then the temple mentioned in Rev 1-2 must be us! As WE are the temple of God. 1 Cor 3:16 states that fact. So, if hermanutics are to apply, Rev 1-2 must also fall into that rule. Just one problem. I don't have a Gentile controlling me and I do not have a court inside of me. Pertaining to the rule of hermanutics, John is measuring me AS the temple of God and all the people that worship inside of me! So, Rev 2 means if somebody doesn't have the temple, the Gentiles rule there and shall remain there for 42 months.

Also, let's not forget Matt 21:12. Jesus came into some unfortunate people (remember people ARE the temple of God, hermanutics, remember? We must use it everywhere we see it.) and overturned our tables and the seats that sold doves! So, according to this, we, as a temple of God, need our tables turned over and told to sell these items elsewhere?

OK. You got it. I will start this weekend with the temple and apply this rule everywhere I see it.

Thanks. You were a big help.

It is you and Doulos who are teaching we should be using hermanutics, I do not use this system. Doulos said that what I teach is Scripturally bankrupt that is why I asked the question about the temple in Rev 11:1 to which he responded that it is a literal temple in Jerusalem. If he is going to be true to the system which he keeps telling me to use then he has to change what he believes on the temple and doing that then other verses in Rev 11 will have to change as a result.

 

[doulos]

Laodicea in other discussions we have had, you said the candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments, can you show us where Scripture says candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments? Or will you once again avoid the issue and resort to asking questions because you are unable to provide a hermeneutically sound study of the Scriptures supporting the Scripturally bankrupt Seventh Day Adventist doctrine you espouse and cling to? [/QUOTE]

Why arn't you using hermanutic principles to tell us what the temple of God is in Revelation 11:1?

*[[Rev 11:19]] KJV* And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

According to hermanutic principles which you keep telling me of then the temple of God in Revelation 11:1 is the temple in heaven not on earth.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions, once again the conversation becomes one sided as Laodicea refuses to answer questions while expecting others to answer his questons (rather hypocritical isn’t it?). Thanks for proving my point. But that’s ok I understand, afterall you can’t use Scripture to suppot the Scripturally bankrupt Seventh Day Adventist view (you continue to promote) that says the two witnesses are the Old and New Testaments.

There is a problem with saying the olive tree in Revelation 11 is the same as Romans 11. Romans 11 is a single tree while Revelation 11 is two trees.

Actually there are two olive trees in Rom11, a good olive tree and a wild olive tree.

We need to go to the verse that talks about two olive trees as in Zechariah.

The lampstands and olive trees from Zech have already been idenified as Zerubbabel and the two anointed ones. Those figures died about 2500 years ago so unless you expect some kind of special resurrection to happen to bring them back that pretty much eliminates them. But even if it didn’t that still would not help your case that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. May I suggest you gain an understanding of hermeneutics.

Same with the candlesticks which Revelation 11 has two while the churches are seven candlesticks. We need to go to the part in the Bible that matches the description.

The number of candlesticks does not change what a candlestick is. Regardless of whether there are 2,7 or 1000 does not change the FACT that candlesticks are churches.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

My friend maybe you need to reread Romans 11 there are 2 olive trees in Romans 11 not 1.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Do you see one or two olive trees in that verse? 2, a good olive tree and a wild olive tree.
Isn’t the wild olive trees Gentiles? Yes
Isn’t the good olive tree (originally before any branches are broken out or new branches graffed in) Jews? Yes
So don’t the 2 trees represent Jews and Gentiles? Yes

Obviously not all Jew and Gentiles are witnesses for Christ so lets see if candlesticks help us clear this up.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The above verse positively tells us 7 candlesticks are 7 churches. Whether there are 2, 7 or a 1000 is irrelevant, the number of them does not change the fact that candlesticks represent churches. What is a church? Is a church a building or a group of believers (those called out, the elect)?

Churches G1577
G1577ἐκκλησίαekklēsia ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

So 2 olive trees are Jews and Gentiles and 2 churches are groups of believers added together you have Jew and Gentile believers. Nothing difficult about it if you believe the inspired word of God.

How do we know that if olive trees represent Jews and Gentiles in Rom11 they will still represent Jews and Gentiles in Rev11? How do we know that if candlesticks are churches (believers) in Rev1 they will still be churches (believers) in Rev11? Once again Scripture provides the answer.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God/Word is unchanging therefore if olive trees are Jews and Gentiles in Rom 11 then olive trees will still be Jews and Gentiles in Rev11. The same applies to the candlesticks being churches (believers), if they are churches (believers) in Rev1 they will still be churches (believers) in Rev11.

We are all given free will and get to decide what to believe. Do you want to stand on false seventh day adventists tradition or the word of God? Your choice, your decision.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Laodicea]

Doulos your own system of hermanutics proves your doctrine to be wrong. You teach that the temple in Rev 11:1 is a literal temple in Jerusalem But, your system of hermanutics teaches it is the temple in heaven not on earth. If you are wrong on verse 1 then you would also be wrong on the verses after verse 1.

The reason why you are barking so loudly is because your own system of hermanutics proves your doctrine to be false and rather than aknowledge it you decide to bark.

 

[zone]

My friend maybe you need to reread Romans 11 there are 2 olive trees in Romans 11 not 1.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Do you see one or two olive trees in that verse? 2, a good olive tree and a wild olive tree.
Isn’t the wild olive trees Gentiles? Yes
Isn’t the good olive tree (originally before any branches are broken out or new branches graffed in) Jews? Yes
So don’t the 2 trees represent Jews and Gentiles? Yes

what's the wild tree a witness of?
unbelieving gentiles?

what gaga.

ONE TREE.

end transmission

 

[Abiding]

hahahahahahaha...oppps sowy

 

[kardiaoangelous]

what's the wild tree a witness of?
unbelieving gentiles?

what gaga.

ONE TREE.

end transmission

Zechariah 8:23 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

 

[kardiaoangelous]

what's the wild tree a witness of?
unbelieving gentiles?

what gaga.

ONE TREE.

end transmission

Zechariah 8:23 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

2 Kings 10:15. Jehonadab was taken up onto Jehu's chariot and road with him into battle. They in turn picture these two groups today.

God is God of all.

Job was an Asian but also he was God's witness. Used to prove Satan a liar.