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G
THE WHOLE POINT of this thread --- is to illustrate just how vitally important it really is for people to be in agreement about the definition and use of the word 'rapture' -- so that everyone is "on the same page" -- before any truly worthwhile discussion may be had on the subject...
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
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P
What does the word 'rapture' mean to me?
Well sadly it’s a word Christians made up “Rapture”.
I like to think of it as “the gathering” or “catching up of the saints", but the word rapture does the trick anyway, and it seems to be what most Christians use, so it’s easier to use the word rapture so most Christians understand.
Now, off the word Rapture and on to the rapture event itself and what that means to me..
I will try and keep it simple.
Jesus comes, Immediately after the tribulation and the angels gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other end of the earth.Matt24
We meet him in the air in the clouds at the last trumpet Rv11..
Then the wrath of God, the seven angels with the seven vials pour out His wrath on the wicked that have the mark of the beast.
On the sixth vial of the wrath of God, the wicked gather together for the battle of that great day of God Almighty.at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rv16:2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast,10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast.
12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Then we return with Christ with a rod of iron in Rv19.
To fight the fight to smite the nations, and the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, THAT have gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse.
Rv19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
So I see it as post-trib but pre-wrath.
If you have got anything to add or take way, hopefully you will have scripture and not just opinion. Thanks.
Well sadly it’s a word Christians made up “Rapture”.
I like to think of it as “the gathering” or “catching up of the saints", but the word rapture does the trick anyway, and it seems to be what most Christians use, so it’s easier to use the word rapture so most Christians understand.
Now, off the word Rapture and on to the rapture event itself and what that means to me..
I will try and keep it simple.
Jesus comes, Immediately after the tribulation and the angels gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other end of the earth.Matt24
We meet him in the air in the clouds at the last trumpet Rv11..
Then the wrath of God, the seven angels with the seven vials pour out His wrath on the wicked that have the mark of the beast.
On the sixth vial of the wrath of God, the wicked gather together for the battle of that great day of God Almighty.at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rv16:2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast,10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast.
12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Then we return with Christ with a rod of iron in Rv19.
To fight the fight to smite the nations, and the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, THAT have gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse.
Rv19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
So I see it as post-trib but pre-wrath.
If you have got anything to add or take way, hopefully you will have scripture and not just opinion. Thanks.
P
THE WHOLE POINT of this thread --- is to illustrate just how vitally important it really is for people to be in agreement about the definition and use of the word 'rapture' -- so that everyone is "on the same page" -- before any truly worthwhile discussion may be had on the subject...
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
The last time we spoke, you said we don’t go anywhere, and there is no rapture.
I will get to your other stuff later
THE WHOLE POINT of this thread --- is to illustrate just how vitally important it really is for people to be in agreement about the definition and use of the word 'rapture' -- so that everyone is "on the same page" -- before any truly worthwhile discussion may be had on the subject...
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
could you link me to your study of the symbolism used in Revelation, GRA?
thanks for your hard work, bud.
zone.
A
Rapture in English a seizing of overwhelming emotional ecstasy of pleasure, Greek Harpazdo a violent (supernatural) physical removal of one from one place to another used in Acts 8:39 of Phillip being Harpadzo taken by force by the Holy Spirit about 25 miles in a Harpadzo a violent or of a supernatural speed that which the removal being so instantaneous it was as if he disappeared (faster than the relative known abilities in that day and times). Paul also used it in 2 Corth. 12:2-4 and in I Thes. 4:17 referring to the supernatural violent speed of and beyond the abilities of the known times and capabilities. When I first came to the Lord there was as much disagreement as today, so I went to prayer and study the Holy Spirit for me revealed what the answer was helped me to fit the puzzle together, the answer by the Holy Spirit was accompanied with: peace, Agape, Love, joy and harmony to my soul as with my experience of Jesus birthing me in His living waters of Agape and salvation.
G
In general - with exception to some small details - I can agree with what you have written here...
I have plenty of scripture ----- a good deal of it is in the tables in my 'study' threads - links are in my signature. If anyone wants to know what I believe concerning the End Times Scenario - "and where I get it" - this is the best place to look!
I have plenty of scripture ----- a good deal of it is in the tables in my 'study' threads - links are in my signature. If anyone wants to know what I believe concerning the End Times Scenario - "and where I get it" - this is the best place to look!
P
THE WHOLE POINT of this thread --- is to illustrate just how vitally important it really is for people to be in agreement about the definition and use of the word 'rapture' -- so that everyone is "on the same page" -- before any truly worthwhile discussion may be had on the subject...
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
I really would like to know more about what this is suppose to mean... ???
No - you apparently do not.
I never said that. (with regard to the surface of the earth)
I have said:
1st heaven - Yes, absolutely - "in the clouds" / "in the air"
2nd heaven - Yes, perhaps - just beyond the 1st heaven, but still in the "close vicinity" of the earth
3rd heaven - No.
YEP
YEP
Who is "we"...??? --- "we" just may soon enough discover that "we" are part of those who are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast...
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ~ Revelation 15:2
Grammatically speaking -- the 'them' in this verse may or may not be all-inclusive (as associated with those who 'stand on sea of glass'); however, it IS - beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever - referring to those - and only those - "no more and no less" - "exactly and precisely and particularly and specifically" - who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
The word 'victory' - in the context of this verse - is not [just simply] referring to the [general] idea of "victory in Christ" (i.e., with regard to salvation). It is very specifically talking about the "overcoming" of those who "overcame" the beast and his image / mark / etc.
"It does not apply to everyone since Adam."
It only applies to those who 'had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name'.
Now - I will be more than happy to modify my position to that of accepting the possibility of some people who "do not accept the mark" - and, happen to still be alive when Jesus returns. These would still then "get the victory" - because "getting the victory" is about "not accepting the mark"; however, for the absolute majority of those who "do not accept the mark" - it will mean certain death. Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
"There's no two ways about it."
So then - I suppose I could say "reach the end" - by death or by rapture - as a requirement of the 'victory' in this verse.
Previously, I was thinking of the rapture as a separate subsequent event - as if - all who did not "accept the mark" died a martyr's death. ( "Silly of me... ?" )
Needless to say, post #34 was written from that perspective.
Nonetheless, the 'victory' in this verse is [very specifically] about "overcoming by not accepting the mark"...
'victory' in general, like in the above two verses you quoted - yes
'victory' in the specific scenario given in Revelation 15:2 - no
"No kidding, Dick Tracy!"
It is the faith of those - who "got the victory" in Revelation 15:2 - that enabled them (understand the context - I am not leaving out the Holy Spirit) to "stand against" the beast and "not accept the mark" [until the end].
If you die in the lord because you don’t take the mark of the beast and bow to his image you have endure to the end you have gotten the victory
If you live in the lord to the last day without taking the mark of the beast and endure to the end you have gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.
And my point of reference is
We which are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them.
Thus
There WE are standing on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.
Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
And helping to show there is a rapture and we do go somewhere, and its after the tribulation.
What you call me names and still won’t me to answer your questions.
P
In general - with exception to some small details - I can agree with what you have written here...
I have plenty of scripture ----- a good deal of it is in the tables in my 'study' threads - links are in my signature. If anyone wants to know what I believe concerning the End Times Scenario - "and where I get it" - this is the best place to look!
I have plenty of scripture ----- a good deal of it is in the tables in my 'study' threads - links are in my signature. If anyone wants to know what I believe concerning the End Times Scenario - "and where I get it" - this is the best place to look!
P
P
No I don’t think so RickeZ
A cupola of reasons.
Jesus comes 29Immediately after the tribulation
So that’s post trib.
Plus it’s common for Christians to use the words pre- trib and post–trib
And there is enough to teach without teaching against the grain.
It’s like the word rapture, I don’t like it , its not a word in the Bible, BUT its what most Christians can relate too when you are talking about Jesus coming.
So why fight against the grain when it’s just a “word” that Christians made up for the event its self.
If we try to change too much, it becomes more than a hand full, and there is already much to change
So no, I think post–trib does the trick.
A cupola of reasons.
Jesus comes 29Immediately after the tribulation
So that’s post trib.
Plus it’s common for Christians to use the words pre- trib and post–trib
And there is enough to teach without teaching against the grain.
It’s like the word rapture, I don’t like it , its not a word in the Bible, BUT its what most Christians can relate too when you are talking about Jesus coming.
So why fight against the grain when it’s just a “word” that Christians made up for the event its self.
If we try to change too much, it becomes more than a hand full, and there is already much to change
So no, I think post–trib does the trick.
P
"and then continuing down with Him"
I think not
You have to give Him some time to pour out the wrath on the wicked
And you have to give Him some time for the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty
And you have to give Him some time for the wicked to gather themselves together at Armageddon.
And then Jesus comes on a white horse with His army’s and fights them that have gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.