Is baptism Essential for salvation?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
You are wrong as it would be the Greek proposition [FONT=Theophilos Greek, sans-serif]εν[/FONT] but it is instead[FONT=Theophilos Greek, sans-serif] εις[/FONT]
why don't you look into it a little more yourself.
i'd repent of false teaching if i were you.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The propagation of the gospel is a work for all in their several spheres. Teach; docete (Vulgate). These are unfortunate renderings of the verb μαθητεύσατε, which means, "make disciples." Teaching is expressed in ver. 20, as one of the elements or components of full discipleship. The imperative aorist μαθητεύσατε is, as it were, decomposed by the two following present participles, "baptizing" and "teaching." In the case of infants the process is exactly what is here represented; they are admitted into the Christian society by baptism, and then instructed in faith and duty.

Adults have to be instructed before baptism; but they form a small minority in most Christian communities, where, generally, infant baptism is the rule, and would be regarded rather as exceptions. Teaching alone is not stated by the Lord to be the only thing necessary to convert an unbeliever into a Christian; this is effected by the grace of God applied as Christ proceeds to explain. All nations (πάντα τὰ ἔθνη αλλ τηε νατιονσ).

The apostles were no longer to go only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6); they were to Christianize all the nations of the world, Jew and Gentile alike. The gospel is adapted to all the varying minds and habits of men, barbarous and civilized, near and remote, ignorant or cultivated; and it is the duty and privilege of Christ's ministers to make it known and acceptable in all quarters of the globe. Baptizing them; i.e. individuals of all the nations.

The present participle denotes the mode of initiation into discipleship. Make them disciples by baptizing them. Christ thus explains his mysterious announcement to Nicodemus (John 3:5), "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." To the disciples the notion of baptism was no new thing. As a rite typifying the cleansing of the heart and the purpose of leading a new life, it had been long practised in the case of proselytes to the Jewish faith; they had seen it employed by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:6), and had used it themselves (John 4:1, 2).

Christ adopts the old rite, gives it a new solemnity, a most sacred formula of administration, a new meaning, new spiritual effects. The persons to whom and in whose presence he spoke would understand his injunction as applicable to all who were capable of its reception, children and adults, the subjects of the initiatory ceremony of proselytism.

There was no need of closer specification. Or, if any such instruction was needed, the rules concerning circumcision would be a sufficient guide. In (εἰς, into) the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Our version follows the Vulgate, in nomine, which does not give the right force to the expression. The phrase does not mean merely invoking the Name, under the sanction of the great Name, but something more than this.

It signifies into the power and influence of the Holy Trinity, into faith in the three Persons of God, and the duties and privileges consequent on that faith, into the family of God and obedience unto its Head. The "into" shows the end and aim of the consecration of baptism. The "Name" of God is that by which he is known to us - that which connotes his being and his attributes, that by which there exists a conscious connection between God and ourselves (comp. Matthew 18:20).

So being baptized into the Name of God implies being placed in subjection to and communion with God himself, admitted into covenant with him. It is to be observed that the term is "name," not "names," thus denoting the unity of the Godhead in the trinity of Persons. The Lord's words have always been taken as the formula of baptism, and have in all ages been used in its administration.

The three Divine Persons were revealed at the baptism of Jesus (Matthew 3:16, 17); they are invoked at every Christian baptism. It is true that we read, in the early Church, of persons being baptized "in the Name of the Lord Jesus," and "in the Name of the Lord" (Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48); but this expression by no means assumes that the names of the other Divine Persons were not used; it denotes that the converts were admitted into the religion which Jesus instituted, in fact, were made Christians....
Matthew Henry
 
Mar 15, 2013
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Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by [baptism = complete submersion] into [his] death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,464
459
83
Silly us, we've been reading from the wrong manuscript.

We think Jesus said this,

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]



But he actually said...
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, DON'T baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]DON'T teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]


I'm hoping everyone finds the second set of verses highly offensive.
Unfortunately certain leading questions, and applications of extenuating circumstances to all, have in effect, turned Jesus' original words, into my distorted words. Oddly enough folks aren't as offended.

*ponders*



Yuo are unfortunately assumiing he was saying be water Babtised when John clearly stated that he must decrease and Christ"s Babtism must increase. That the one that comes after him Christ this is will babtize us with the Holy Ghost and with fire
Two witnesse testified to what John stated here I wonder are we after the cross or before the cross as these two stated this as before the cross and acts 1:5 along with Pentecost and John 16 confirm that today we are seled by god through Christ who ascenended on high and sent us the Holy Ghost to teach us all truth
  • Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
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why don't you look into it a little more yourself.
i'd repent of false teaching if i were you.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The propagation of the gospel is a work for all in their several spheres. Teach; docete (Vulgate). These are unfortunate renderings of the verb μαθητεύσατε, which means, "make disciples." Teaching is expressed in ver. 20, as one of the elements or components of full discipleship. The imperative aorist μαθητεύσατε is, as it were, decomposed by the two following present participles, "baptizing" and "teaching." In the case of infants the process is exactly what is here represented; they are admitted into the Christian society by baptism, and then instructed in faith and duty.

Adults have to be instructed before baptism; but they form a small minority in most Christian communities, where, generally, infant baptism is the rule, and would be regarded rather as exceptions. Teaching alone is not stated by the Lord to be the only thing necessary to convert an unbeliever into a Christian; this is effected by the grace of God applied as Christ proceeds to explain. All nations (πάντα τὰ ἔθνη αλλ τηε νατιονσ).

The apostles were no longer to go only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6); they were to Christianize all the nations of the world, Jew and Gentile alike. The gospel is adapted to all the varying minds and habits of men, barbarous and civilized, near and remote, ignorant or cultivated; and it is the duty and privilege of Christ's ministers to make it known and acceptable in all quarters of the globe. Baptizing them; i.e. individuals of all the nations.

The present participle denotes the mode of initiation into discipleship. Make them disciples by baptizing them. Christ thus explains his mysterious announcement to Nicodemus (John 3:5), "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." To the disciples the notion of baptism was no new thing. As a rite typifying the cleansing of the heart and the purpose of leading a new life, it had been long practised in the case of proselytes to the Jewish faith; they had seen it employed by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:6), and had used it themselves (John 4:1, 2).

Christ adopts the old rite, gives it a new solemnity, a most sacred formula of administration, a new meaning, new spiritual effects. The persons to whom and in whose presence he spoke would understand his injunction as applicable to all who were capable of its reception, children and adults, the subjects of the initiatory ceremony of proselytism.

There was no need of closer specification. Or, if any such instruction was needed, the rules concerning circumcision would be a sufficient guide. In (εἰς, into) the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Our version follows the Vulgate, in nomine, which does not give the right force to the expression. The phrase does not mean merely invoking the Name, under the sanction of the great Name, but something more than this.

It signifies into the power and influence of the Holy Trinity, into faith in the three Persons of God, and the duties and privileges consequent on that faith, into the family of God and obedience unto its Head. The "into" shows the end and aim of the consecration of baptism. The "Name" of God is that by which he is known to us - that which connotes his being and his attributes, that by which there exists a conscious connection between God and ourselves (comp. Matthew 18:20).

So being baptized into the Name of God implies being placed in subjection to and communion with God himself, admitted into covenant with him. It is to be observed that the term is "name," not "names," thus denoting the unity of the Godhead in the trinity of Persons. The Lord's words have always been taken as the formula of baptism, and have in all ages been used in its administration.

The three Divine Persons were revealed at the baptism of Jesus (Matthew 3:16, 17); they are invoked at every Christian baptism. It is true that we read, in the early Church, of persons being baptized "in the Name of the Lord Jesus," and "in the Name of the Lord" (Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48); but this expression by no means assumes that the names of the other Divine Persons were not used; it denotes that the converts were admitted into the religion which Jesus instituted, in fact, were made Christians....
Matthew Henry
Now you are just going to hurl an arsenal because you have no ability to directly refute what I told you, for you know it is true that at Matthew 28:9 if it meant "in the authority of", that proposition must be en, which means "fixed in".

And you know that eis means "into", else you know nothing of Greek prepositions.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Yuo are unfortunately assumiing he was saying be water Babtised when John clearly stated that he must decrease and Christ"s Babtism must increase. That the one that comes after him Christ this is will babtize us with the Holy Ghost and with fire
Two witnesse testified to what John stated here I wonder are we after the cross or before the cross as these two stated this as before the cross and acts 1:5 along with Pentecost and John 16 confirm that today we are seled by god through Christ who ascenended on high and sent us the Holy Ghost to teach us all truth
  • Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Was poor ole Peter the apostle wrongly assuming too when he ORDERED their WATER baptism?

acts10


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.


Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Poor ole authoritative apostle Peter misunderstood Jesus.
too bad some of us weren't around to fill him in on his error.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,464
459
83
Baptism should be done. I just don't believe it's required for salvation. I've been baptised and I'd encourage all Christians to be baptised. I'm not against baptism.
agreed it is just not to be saved it is for a good conscious before God not before others to say hey look at me and get all proud and boastful of themselves as they get pats on the backs as if they are good when there is no not one good, only God is Good as Jesus said this to that
Matt.19:16-17, now please take note that this was before the death, burial, and resurrection under the Lawof Moses that Jesus came to fulfill. this is before the cross
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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Acts 8:36
As they traveled along the road,
they came to some water

and the eunuch said,
Look, here is water.

What can stand in the way of my being baptized?"

...


did Philip say: "oh. silly eunuch....The Spirit didn't instruct me to allow you baptism

in water?

let's see what happened:


38And he commanded the chariot to stop, and

they both went down into the water

Philip and the eunuch,
and he baptized him.



39And when they came up out of

the water,



the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.


....


hmmm....looks like the Spirit of the Lord was involved in BAPTISM IN

WATER

am i missing something?
You really need to separate yourself from this discussion if it is getting that emotional for you. :)
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,464
459
83
Acts 8:36
As they traveled along the road,
they came to some water

and the eunuch said,
Look, here is water.

What can stand in the way of my being baptized?"

...


did Philip say: "oh. silly eunuch....The Spirit didn't instruct me to allow you baptism

in water?

let's see what happened:


38And he commanded the chariot to stop, and

they both went down into the water

Philip and the eunuch,
and he baptized him.



39And when they came up out of

the water,



the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.


....


hmmm....looks like the Spirit of the Lord was involved in BAPTISM IN

WATER

am i missing something?

ACTSis not Doctrinal, if it is Then no one is Holy Ghost saved unles hands are layed upon them. Just an example
To use ACTS as Doctinal is like hearing on the radio to believe and be saved. To be this history of one getting saved through the radio, then this the way the truth the life NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doctrinal epistles please!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Now you are just going to hurl an arsenal because you have no ability to directly refute what I told you, for you know it is true that at Matthew 28:9 if it meant "in the authority of", that proposition must be en, which means "fixed in".

And you know that eis means "into", else you know nothing of Greek prepositions.
you can peer at little greek prepositions all day long.

if you deny baptism as commanded by the Lord, you've stopped before you even got started.


you didn't read it?:) here it is again.

don't forget, the subject is BAPTISM. which you deny is commanded.




Our version follows the Vulgate, in nomine, which does not give the right force to the expression. The phrase does not mean merely invoking the Name, under the sanction of the great Name, but something more than this.

It signifies into the power and influence of the Holy Trinity, into faith in the three Persons of God, and the duties and privileges consequent on that faith, into the family of God and obedience unto its Head. The "into" shows the end and aim of the consecration of baptism. The "Name" of God is that by which he is known to us - that which connotes his being and his attributes, that by which there exists a conscious connection between God and ourselves (comp. Matthew 18:20).

INTO, IN THE NAME OF.

in the Name and Authority, the power and the influence....OF GOD

BAPTISM - commanded by Him, who has the Great Name.
 
J

jinx

Guest
ACTSis not Doctrinal, if it is Then no one is Holy Ghost saved unles hands are layed upon them. Just an example
To use ACTS as Doctinal is like hearing on the radio to believe and be saved. To be this history of one getting saved through the radio, then this the way the truth the life NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doctrinal epistles please!

So what books of the bible are "doctrinal" according to you. where do I use my scissors first?

Do you know how INSANE you guys sound?????

10 foot pole anyone???
 
Mar 15, 2013
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ACTSis not Doctrinal, if it is Then no one is Holy Ghost saved unles hands are layed upon them. Just an example
To use ACTS as Doctinal is like hearing on the radio to believe and be saved. To be this history of one getting saved through the radio, then this the way the truth the life NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doctrinal epistles please!
I have no doubt zone would say exactly what she said, to that eunuch's request to be baptized in that manner had she been Philip in her present state of mind which can come up with thoughts that would so clearly violate love, as saying, did Philip say: "oh. silly eunuch....The Spirit didn't instruct me to allow you baptism"
 
Mar 15, 2013
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you can peer at little greek prepositions all day long.

if you deny baptism as commanded by the Lord, you've stopped before you even got started.


you didn't read it?:) here it is again.

don't forget, the subject is BAPTISM. which you deny is commanded.




Our version follows the Vulgate, in nomine, which does not give the right force to the expression. The phrase does not mean merely invoking the Name, under the sanction of the great Name, but something more than this.

It signifies into the power and influence of the Holy Trinity, into faith in the three Persons of God, and the duties and privileges consequent on that faith, into the family of God and obedience unto its Head. The "into" shows the end and aim of the consecration of baptism. The "Name" of God is that by which he is known to us - that which connotes his being and his attributes, that by which there exists a conscious connection between God and ourselves (comp. Matthew 18:20).

INTO, IN THE NAME OF.

in the Name and Authority, the power and the influence....OF GOD

BAPTISM - commanded by Him, who has the Great Name.
Another of your misrepresentations. :)

I do not deny that baptism was commanded.

I deny your interpretation that baptism must always mean by literal water.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,464
459
83
Is baptism what John the baptist did to Jesus to set an example for us, for you? so to answer your question, I think it's Christ like, and it's essential to follow after Christ.
andthat is great for an emotional feel good, Halleluah!!!!!!!!!
What John's purpose born six months before the Christ? Whenwas this purpose fulfilled?
Luke 3:4As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John 1:23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Then when John did do the Babtism water of Christ what did he say?
[h=3]John 3:29-31[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]He must increase, but I must decrease.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Matthew 3:16
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
Mark 1:10And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.

Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:7And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
You really need to separate yourself from this discussion if it is getting that emotional for you. :)
oh rly?
i don't take orders from you:)

not emotional at all.

just seeing if you can actually read.

here it is again:

they both went down into
the water
Philip and the eunuch,
and he baptized him.

see it?
does it say they actually went down into water?
and Philip baptized him in water?

or is there a coded message in it?

do tell.

i'll be relaxing here, amused at this point.






somebody call me when the mystics learn to read.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
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I have no doubt zone would say exactly what she said, to that eunuch's request to be baptized in that manner had she been Philip in her present state of mind which can come up with thoughts that would so clearly violate love, as saying, did Philip say: "oh. silly eunuch....The Spirit didn't instruct me to allow you baptism"
 
J

jerusalem

Guest
what if is the place to begin fairytails......but he didnt say any of that
 
May 9, 2012
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It doesn't matter if Acts is a doctrine or not. The bottom line is that it was commanded by Jesus Christ himself that we are to be baptized by BOTH Spirit AND Water. (Go into ALL nations ***BAPTIZING*** them in...teaching them to OBEY my commandments.") There shouldn't be any "ifs, buts, or what ifs"...those special circumstances are for God to decide Himself on what he should do. It is specifically a commandment in the Great Commission and there is no getting around it. You can't just pick and choose which verses you want to apply and which ones you don't want. That's why they are called COMMANDMENTS because we are to OBEY them.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,464
459
83
How in the world do we baptize them into his name?

God is the only one who can do the spiritual baptism you speak of.
Precisely, so you think maybe mand nedd to get out of the way?
Matt. 19: 25-26 and hear again Jesus pointing out to us that our problem is we are in the way, and this is before the cross under the Law where we no oine by Law can perform it, we need God the Father and the only way God the Father is through Christ shown to each of us by the cross. A new way under a new Priesthood, under the Loveof God God's way not man's

[SUP]25 [/SUP]When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,464
459
83
why are you moving beyond the elementary teachings when you haven't even obeyed the simple command to be baptized?
So why are oyu judging what you do not know of me? Are you an instigator, a fire starter, I see Love you regardless as Christ does and has shown me to love all, becasue God through Christ has loved me first
Wow!!! you do amaze me
 
Mar 15, 2013
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oh rly?
i don't take orders from you:)

not emotional at all.

just seeing if you can actually read.

here it is again:

they both went down into
the water
Philip and the eunuch,
and he baptized him.

see it?
does it say they actually went down into water?
and Philip baptized him in water?

or is there a coded message in it?

do tell.

i'll be relaxing here, amused at this point.






somebody call me when the mystics learn to read.
Not an order zone, just a sensible suggestion out of love.