Grace through faith.

[zone]

skinski:

Re: Grace through faith.

go learn what that means...for once.

 

[Grandpa]

Your doctrine has one "abiding in Christ" and "abiding in sin" at the same time. It is error. There is no "abiding in Christ" unless 'rebellion to God" is forsaken first. This is why James would write this...

[/COLOR]
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

There is no receiving with meekness the implanted word without having laid aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. That verse is completely ignored today by the theologians. They skip over it or explain it away.

Jesus preached REPENTANCE which is where the "laying aside of all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness" occurs. Nineveh laid aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in Jonah 3 and Jesus used Nineveh as a specific example of repentance.

Not today though, repentance is redefined to be a "confession of sinfulness." Human responsibility and thus culpability for CHOOSING TO SIN has been thrown out the window. The sinner is relegated to a victim of birth as opposed to a criminal by intent.

Hence...



Thus instead of being "born into a sinful world" like the Bible teaches you hold to a doctrine where "sin is born in you" as some sort of substance whereby you sin not of your own choosing. Thus actual sin is a symptom of a sin disease rather than a crime against God.

Thus you'll go on with fallacious reasoning...



Jesus was not punished in your place. Jesus died on your behalf so that your previous sins be remitted when you die with Him. It is by partaking in the sufferings of Christ that we put on the mind of Christ and have victory over the world.

Your Gospel has perverted the death of Christ into a substitutional legal transaction whereby one is pronounced righteous when they are still inwardly filthy. You view the cross as a SIN CLOAK. Grace to you is license to keep on sinning although you'll teach you "shouldn't" sin you'll never teach "go and sin no more" like Jesus taught.

When the Bible teaches that God "causes us to walk in His statutes" it is in the context of God making our spirit alive to God (quickening/refreshing) whereby the love of God is perfect IN US hence we partake in the DIVINE NATURE and walk in the will of God because WE LOVE TO DO IT.

There is no twisting of the arm as your doctrine implies. We have to be willing. Willingness is produced via a broken repentance whereby we TRULY come to realise that we are not God and that God is God and that His will is the RIGHT WAY. Thus with this mental attitude we CHOOSE to WALK THE RIGHT WAY which is simply abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

It is a very simple message.


Seek God and yield to Him.

Its like talking to a brick wall with you. You obviously don't care what the bible clearly declares because it is against your own philosophy.

You lie about what I believe and what I preach. You're still confused on whether you are to submit to the will of God or whether it is your free will that must "go and sin no more". I asked you simple questions and instead of answering them you try to lie and then attack the lie you have presented.

I asked those questions for your sake. And for those who may be wondering what the truth is.

James 1:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

There is no "skipping over" James 1:21-22. Its just not accomplished by your flesh or your "free will". We don't recieve anything of the Spirit because we have worked for it or deserve it.

People get really testy when you tell them their "free will" isn't as wonderful and all-powerful as they think it is. I wonder why that is?

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 25:33-40
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Are you hungry? The Lord Jesus is the Bread of Life.

Are you thirsty? The Lord Jesus gives the Living Water.

Are you a stranger? The Lord Jesus and the Body of Christ welcomes you as a brother/sister.

This is grace through faith. It is not of ourselves. It is of God. As far as I know it is available to all for the asking...


Who gets the credit for being drawn to the Lord? The Bible says that the Lord Jesus draws us to Him.
Who gets the credit for our Salvation? The bible says that it is not of our works but a gift from God.
Who gets the credit for keeping us saved? The bible says that the Lord Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Where is our boasting? Is it in our own heart purification? How silly to those of us who have been saved by the Lord Jesus!! Our boasting is only in the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The whole reason why there is no boasting in our works is because it is the Lord who works in us. He has done a wonderful work in us, to salvation. He has given us His Spirit and caused us to walk in His statutes. Just like He Promised. period.

If you haven't been saved yet the road to salvation is simplicity in Christ. Ask Him. Cry out. He hears you. Then check out James 1:17 (its in the new testament)

 

[secularhermit]

Three examples: Elijah was "taken", Lazarus was "taken" and, Jesus, was "taken" by angels. I don't worry on the thing. My concern is what God believed or believes about me. So I don't dare to say: "I'm saved!" Because ALL that depends on God's will and decision.

 

[Skinski7]

Its like talking to a brick wall with you. You obviously don't care what the bible clearly declares because it is against your own philosophy.

You lie about what I believe and what I preach. What is my lie? Do you not teach that the cessation of rebellion to God is not relevant to being reconciled? Do you not believe that one can be engaged in rebellion to God and be justified at the very same time? You're still confused on whether you are to submit to the will of God or whether it is your free will that must "go and sin no more". We are to submit to the will of God and thus go and sin no more. Didn't Jesus tell people to "go and sin no more" and thus imply that it was THEIR CHOICE as to whether they were to do that or not? If there was no free will involved would not it be mockery to command them something they could not do? I asked you simple questions and instead of answering them you try to lie and then attack the lie you have presented.

Simple questions? You mean like this...

So which is it?

Do you lay aside your own will and be subject to God's will or do you strive to impose your own will onto iniquity, naughtiness, filthiness and holiness?

To which I answered...

Why such a statement? All I have ever said is that in a genuine repentance we lay aside our own will and submit ourselves to the leading of God. Salvation is in yielding to God as opposed to being in rebellion. SIMPLE!

Your question is framed in a fallacy because you know VERY WELL the option B. is not my position.

A. Do you lay aside your own will and be subject to God's will
B. Do you strive to impose your own will onto iniquity, naughtiness, filthiness and holiness?

All I have ever said is that godly sorrow that works a genuine repentance (change of mind) unto salvation. It is the change of mind which results in a genuine conversion whereby all rebellion to God has ceased. The heart is made pure by faith as one cleansed by the blood of Christ having approaching Him with a true heart seeking mercy. The new believer is given a fresh start and they walk in accordance to the leading of God growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

It is a very simple message yet the "cessation of rebellion" is the issue that people have with it. Why such an issue? Because they truly believe that the rebellion CANNOT CEASE. They believe it cannot cease due to being BORN A SINNER and thus rebellion is a symptom of a birth state as opposed to a choice. This is why in your questions to me you referred to my denial of Augustinian Original Sin.

The basic premise of your questions to me is founded upon ABILITY verses INABILITY. You hold to "inability" whereby man CANNOT obey God unless God first MAKES him obey and you used that Ezekial passage as a proof text. I took you to task on this foundational premise and instead of address the fundamental issues I bring up you call me a liar and a brick wall.

I am not the one twisting scripture.

Let me show you specifically how you twist scripture...

Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

Are you starting to see what Php 2:12 is saying? Salvation has been procured unto us, this is the goodness and prosperity spoken of in Jeremiah... You take the procurement mentioned in Jer 33:9 and imply that Php 2:12-13 is teaching that salvation is ALREADY A DONE DEAL and thus there is nothing for the believer to do as it pertains to salvation being effectual.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Are you starting to see what Php2:13 is saying? He puts His Spirit within us and He causes us to walk in His statutes, this is His Will and good pleasure. Php 2:13 is not teaching that God MAKES YOU (ie. FORCES) anyone to walk in His statutes. If that was the case then why would Paul call for people to WORK OUT their salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING???

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If Php 2:13 was teaching that God "does it all" and that Php 2:12 is merely a fruit of God doing it all then Paul would not have used the word katergazomai which means to "work fully."

From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

Look at what Paul says soon after...

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If by any means I MIGHT obtain. Why does Paul say MIGHT (katantaō) instead of WILL??? Paul is teaching that salvation in its fullness is not a done deal yet and that there is work that he must do in order to obtain the promise.

Paul says, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" the same sentiment he revealed to the Corinthians...

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hardly the language of someone preaching unconditional eternal security where God does all the work and MAKES you walk in His steps.

Paul said this...

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Paul knew people could faint, ie. depart from the faith, ie. grow weary in well doing and faint. Which is why Paul compelled the Romans with this...

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

God doesn't MAKE you continue that is something YOU have to CHOOSE to do. God provides all that we need but we have to make the conscious effort to walk in accordance with His will. This is why Jesus Christ Himself taught that we have to pick up our cross and DENY SELF and follow Him.

God will not MAKE YOU deny self. You have to CHOOSE to deny self. That choice is wrought through the change of mind wrought through godly sorrow.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

I asked those questions for your sake. And for those who may be wondering what the truth is.

James 1:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

There is no "skipping over" James 1:21-22. Its just not accomplished by your flesh or your "free will". We don't recieve anything of the Spirit because we have worked for it or deserve it. Free will in no way negates the fact the God's grace is undeserved. Overcoming sin is accomplished by abiding in the Spirit of Christ and one CANNOT abide in the Spirit of Christ if one is still walking according to the lusts of the flesh. It is one or the other, we are slaves to whom we obey and we obey whom we CHOOSE to obey hence free will.

It is a strawman objection to imply that "free will = deserving grace." God's grace is unmerited in the sense that it is freely provided from God but it being EFFECTUAL to the saving of the soul is not unmerited because we have to have FAITH. Faith = faithfulness. In other words we have to yield to the grace of God in order that we be made clean by the word. One cannot walk in rebellion to God and be made clean at the same time, no, we must be DOERS of the word like Jesus and James teach.

To imply otherwise makes doing optional or something that occurs later on after some kind of "positional" salvation. Jesus preach REPENT and DO. Jesus did not preach "believe some facts" and "wait." Believing to Jesus was doing.

People get really testy when you tell them their "free will" isn't as wonderful and all-powerful as they think it is. I wonder why that is? Without the ability to CHOOSE to rebel or CHOOSE to abide man is simply not responsible for his sin. Man is relegated to a victim of circumstance and the justice of God is maligned for requiring men to account for that which they are ultimately not responsible.

The denial of the free will of man is a denial of the responsibility of man.

If man cannot choose then he is a mere pawn in a cosmic chess game and whatever will be will be.

 

[Skinski7]

Matthew 25:33-40
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Are you hungry? The Lord Jesus is the Bread of Life.

Are you thirsty? The Lord Jesus gives the Living Water.

Are you a stranger? The Lord Jesus and the Body of Christ welcomes you as a brother/sister.

This is grace through faith. It is not of ourselves. It is of God. As far as I know it is available to all for the asking...


Who gets the credit for being drawn to the Lord? The Bible says that the Lord Jesus draws us to Him.
Who gets the credit for our Salvation? The bible says that it is not of our works but a gift from God.
Who gets the credit for keeping us saved? The bible says that the Lord Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Where is our boasting? Is it in our own heart purification? How silly to those of us who have been saved by the Lord Jesus!! Our boasting is only in the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The whole reason why there is no boasting in our works is because it is the Lord who works in us. He has done a wonderful work in us, to salvation. He has given us His Spirit and caused us to walk in His statutes. Therefore can one be saved and in rebellion to God at the same time??? Are you asserting that in a genuine salvation ALL rebellion has ceased? ie the sin (willful) has stopped? Just like He Promised. period.

If you haven't been saved yet the road to salvation is simplicity in Christ. Ask Him. Cry out. He hears you. Then check out James 1:17 (its in the new testament) Does a child molester have to forsake the action of molesting children in repentance BEFORE God will save them?

I say YES that the rebellion (known wrong doing) must cease BEFORE forgiveness is granted. What do you say Grandpa?

 

[Grandpa]

Simple questions? You mean like this...



To which I answered...


Your question is framed in a fallacy because you know VERY WELL the option B. is not my position.

A. Do you lay aside your own will and be subject to God's will
B. Do you strive to impose your own will onto iniquity, naughtiness, filthiness and holiness?

All I have ever said is that godly sorrow that works a genuine repentance (change of mind) unto salvation. It is the change of mind which results in a genuine conversion whereby all rebellion to God has ceased. The heart is made pure by faith as one cleansed by the blood of Christ having approaching Him with a true heart seeking mercy. The new believer is given a fresh start and they walk in accordance to the leading of God growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.




The denial of the free will of man is a denial of the responsibility of man.

If man cannot choose then he is a mere pawn in a cosmic chess game and whatever will be will be.

Men have the free will to commit sin. The more that a man is hardened to the Holy Spirit the more heinous these sins can be.

A man can't just choose to be Holy or Righteous. That is Gods work in a man and it must be asked for and believed for by faith.

You are a slave to unrighteousness if you are still working the works of the flesh. If you are still trying to attain righteousness through your flesh.

You are a slave to righteousness if you abide in Christ.

Your work for righteousness isn't to make yourself sinless. Your work isn't to purify your heart. Your work is to abide in Christ. He gives righteousness. He gives heart purity. He cleanses us. That is His Work. He grows the Fruit.

Its the Law speaking when you say a person must be sin free before he is saved. Its the Law speaking when you say a person must cease all rebellion before he is saved. The Law always demands.

Grace gives. Grace grows. Grace provides.

The bible says that the Lord Jesus is the friend of sinners. That's because when we are weak, He is Strong.

 

[Grandpa]

[/COLOR]
I say YES that the rebellion (known wrong doing) must cease BEFORE forgiveness is granted. What do you say Grandpa?

A person must want to be freed from their sin before they can be given freedom as a gift. They must ask the Lord.

If they could cease their own rebellion they wouldn't need a savior. All they would need is themselves. That is damnation. That's what pharisees do. Outwardly they seem holy but inwardly they are full of dead mens bones. Because they didn't come to the One that could give them that Heart of Flesh and the Holy Spirit. The One that causes them to walk in His Statutes.

 

[CRUCIFIEDWITHCHRIST]

A person does strive to enter into his rest but its s strive of faith. Its coming to the place only by the mercy and grace of God believing what Jesus has done for us. He bore in his body all of our sins. In the kingdom the man is unmovable steafast in the faith,living by the faith of the son of God. Think of Jesus's faith he doesnt receive any lies from the wicked one, he is totally in the light with perfect love. Believing Jesus is believing his word. Do we have this?? Do we have the divine nature ? Do we believe we are complete in him or do we believe we lack?A person has to cast all their care upon him. If a person truly does this what fear does one have ,is thereanything that can pluck one from the father's hand? The way to come to this place, is to confess if we are not there yet, that we dont believe. The lord will forgive and CLEANSE a man of all unrighteouness. Yes it is a miracle we need but he is faithful to do so. If a man truly holds God to his word , God is required to do it.God will take all of the man's life from him , in so to recieve eternal life. A person born of God cannot sin. It will not manifest.

 

[Skinski7]

Men have the free will to commit sin. The more that a man is hardened to the Holy Spirit the more heinous these sins can be.

A man can't just choose to be Holy or Righteous. A human being cannot CHOOSE to be holy and righteous by submitting to God??? That is Gods work in a man and it must be asked for and believed for by faith. You are saying that the man has to DO NOTHING? Just ask?

You are a slave to unrighteousness if you are still working the works of the flesh. If you are still trying to attain righteousness through your flesh. One is a slave to unrighteousness if they OBEY unrighteousness.


Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Why bring up this, "still trying to attain righteousness through your flesh." when I have NEVER claimed such a thing? How is submitting to the Spirit of God in obedience trying to attain righteousness through the flesh???

You are a slave to righteousness if you abide in Christ. Absolutely true. Abiding in Christ is being in submission to His Spirit as opposed to being in rebellion. In other words the rebellion must cease in order that one abide in Jesus Christ, which is why Jesus preached repentance. Repentance produces a cessation of rebellion and submission to God.

Your work for righteousness isn't to make yourself sinless. The cessation of rebellion is the cessation of sin (willful). It's pretty simple and I don't understand why people have a problem with the necessity of rebellion to God ceasing BEFORE forgiveness is granted. It is what the Bible plainly states in many places.

Your work isn't to purify your heart. Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Your work is to abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ is to OBEY Christ and the result is HEART PURITY. He gives righteousness The righteousness of God is MANIFEST through us.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness is not some "stuff" which can be wrapped up and given to someone else. Righteousness is a FRUIT of the will. Righteousness is a fruit of a will that is in submission to God. The light of God manifests righteousness through the vessels that are in submission. Hence we no longer live but Christ lives IN us.

The utter fallacy of the Reformed Doctrine of the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is that they are treating righteousness as if it is some "stuff" that can be passed around. Vice and virtue are rooted in CHOICES that emanate from a spiritual state, thus it is FRUIT which bears witness of a righteous state.

What Satan has done is redefine the terms so that a sinner will THINK that one can be inwardly vile and yet have an outward CLOAK of purity. It is a lie from the pit of hell. What we DO represents who we are. Whom we serve represents whom our master us.

Those that are Christ's SERVE righteousness. They whom belong to Satan SERVE unrighteousness. For we are slaves to whom we obey.

Thus there is no such thing as salvation IN sin. There is no such thing as rebellion in reconciliation.

He gives heart purity. He cleanses us. That is His Work. He grows the Fruit. Yes God grows the fruit by tending to the vine which is Christ. We are the branches plugged into the vine and thus bear the fruit of Christ. If no fruit is being produced it is evidence of not being plugged into the vine and while God is patient and gives the branch time, eventually He will cut off the unproductive branches and cast them into the fire.

Its the Law speaking when you say a person must be sin free before he is saved. Salvation by DEFINITION is being saved FROM sin. Thus the very nature of salvation is an absence of rebellion to God. In other words we are not only delivered from the condemnation wrought by past disobedience, we are delivered from the bondage of repeated ongoing disobedience.

When WE DIE with Christ we crucify the old man whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all. The body of sin is that aspect of a human being whereby one is kept in a state of continual rebellion to God. Many commentators liken it to Paul describing one being chained to a rotting corpse.

God will not save anyone who persists in rebellion. The rebellion must cease in repentance or the rebellion will never cease. God draws people to forsake their rebellion but God does not FORCE people to forsake their rebellion. He leaves the choice up to us. He does not want any to perish but all to come to repentance.

Its the Law speaking when you say a person must cease all rebellion before he is saved. The Law always demands. The law has NOTHING to do with it. The law was a set of rules given to men that if observed was likened unto righteous conduct, yet the law could NEVER address the issue of the heart. Thus one could observe the law outwardly and remain in a filthy defiled state inwardly (like the Pharisees). Thus the law was a shadow of Christ.

Christ deals with the inner man in which heart purity is produced by which the outward deeds are resultant of inward purity which is genuine righteousness, a righteousness which EXCEEDS that of the scribes and Pharisees.

It is so utterly falacious to equate obedience to Christ (ie. rebellion to Christ has ceased) with the "works of the law." Satan has convoluted the issue in order that people uphold a stronghold in their mind where they don't relate obedience to the outcome of a genuine salvation.

Thus people under the delusion come to a NOTION of salvation whilst still in rebellion to God. When this deception takes hold it basically shuts the mind off from the true Gospel. Many people under this delusion will refuse to repent and defend being able to sin and not surely die right up to the judgment when the veil will be removed and they will realise how horribly they were deceived. It is the ultimate tragedy.

Grace gives. Grace grows. Grace provides. Grace teaches (Tit 2:11-12). Grace must be accessed by faith (Rom 5:2). One must work together with God lest grace is received to no working effect (2Cor 6:1).

The bible says that the Lord Jesus is the friend of sinners. That's because when we are weak, He is Strong. Are you defending salvation IN sin again? That one CAN SIN and not surely die? That is what it sounds like to me. While Jesus sat down and ate with sinners He did not condone nor teach that one is saved IN sin. In fact Jesus said "go and sin no more." If Jesus told you to "go and sin no more" what would your answer to Him be? "I can't"????

Grandpa,

Can you sin and not surely die?

Do you really believe that you can go and murder someone and remain in a justified state before God? Do you really believe that one can be actively engaged in known transgression and be in a justified state at the very same time?

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa,

Can you sin and not surely die?

Do you really believe that you can go and murder someone and remain in a justified state before God? Do you really believe that one can be actively engaged in known transgression and be in a justified state at the very same time?

What does atonement mean? What does reconciliation mean? What is a propitiation?

I don't believe that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus can be used as the jews used their sacrifices, having to sacrifice over and over. What I believe is that once a person is saved by the Lord Jesus even their evil flesh desires to be good, like He is good.

Does anyone attain this perfect goodness in the flesh? Well, I don't think so. Where would faith come in if they did? How could we know that we must rely on His Righteousness and not our own? People who think they have attained to perfect goodness have just lowered the bar of what perfect goodness is, imo... And then they could put this yoke onto other people, telling them that they must attain to this perfect goodness as well. It kind of misses the whole "friend of sinners" mark, doesn't it???

He is the one I rely on and He is the one that I tell other people to rely on. That's how I was saved. I couldn't attain to what you say must be attained in order to be forgiven and saved. He gave it to me as a gift. You know, Ephesians 2....

 

[RedTent]

Redtent you really this age (dare not say OLD)

You can say old, and indeed, I have lived 88 years. Got a bawling out by my doctor the other day, saying old people have to WORK to keep going, lift weights, walk, balance exercises, or I will be beholden to others to care for me. Bummer.

Something that I think many are unaware of, as they go through the list of definitions of faith is that to the ancient understanding of that word it included doing, walking, following through with faith in God's words. Our 2013 understanding of faith often doesn't include that part of it, but it was how God was telling of it. We are told, however, that faith without works is dead.

We have Christ who wipes us clean when we ask and repent, but repenting means turning around and going the other way. We are protected from law in that way. It is through God's grace that happens. We can't do that for ourselves, only God can do it. But faith that includes doing and repentance is a factor.

 

[Angela53510]

This thread is a perfect example of the extremism of Arminianism! It takes free will to a level of insanity.

Grandpa, many thanks for your clear and patient explanations of grace through faith.

Someone already mentioned this verse, but they did not post it. It is pivotal in this whole discussion. So I will make it large, with some bold stuff, hope that is ok?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9[/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

Loaded verses - and so nice to make them bold, underline, etc!!

 

[RedTent]

Someone already mentioned this verse, but they did not post it. It is pivotal in this whole discussion. So I will make it large, with some bold stuff, hope that is ok?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9[/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

Loaded verses - and so nice to make them bold, underline, etc!!

The problem with quoting verses that are truth is that they are not the entire picture of truth. We can't quote about faith, with our limited view of it especially and be done. We can't say, oh Christ will forgive me, I am forgiven so lets be done will all that sin stuff. We can't say God saves us through grace, and stop there. We can't say we will walk in His ways, and that will take care of all of it. God's plan of salvation is a balance of all things.

 

[Cobus]

Redtent, I would add Uncle Redtent... The complete picture of the Gospel is also the mystery of the Faith.....

This is what I see GRACE THROUGH FAITH MEANS...
Grace through Faith is: God choosing a sinner to be conformed to the image of His Son.... AND MADE SO WITH NO VARIABLENESS....
God's grace is GOD DOING THE WORK. Faith is the RESULT of what GOD HAS DONE! That man remade/reborn in the IMAGE of HIS SON, is a man that has faith, to SHOW HOW GOD CONFORMED THE MAN.

A man bonded in sin, was taken (chosen) by God to be His servant, conformed to the likeness of Jesus.... What an AWESOME God this is, to make sinners like His Son.

This means only one thing, God's GRACE (His Work) did not stop to get the sinner clean, it also made the sinner a FAITHFULL person, like Jesus was faithfull to the Father, so is EVERY ONE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Look it up Faith is one of the SPIRITUAL GIFTS. (1 Cor 12) AND EVERY PERFECT GIFT IS FROM ABOVE!
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
WOW!

 

[Skinski7]

Grandpa,

Can you sin and not surely die?

Do you really believe that you can go and murder someone and remain in a justified state before God? Do you really believe that one can be actively engaged in known transgression and be in a justified state at the very same time?

What does atonement mean? What does reconciliation mean? What is a propitiation?

I don't believe that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus can be used as the jews used their sacrifices, having to sacrifice over and over. What I believe is that once a person is saved by the Lord Jesus even their evil flesh desires to be good, like He is good.

Does anyone attain this perfect goodness in the flesh? The issue is HEART PURITY not sinless perfection. Sinless perfection is a strawman which is used to raise the bar so high in order to uphold the necessity of the reformed doctrine of the "imputed righteousness of Christ." Yet the Bible clearly teaches that God "imputes FAITH as righteousness" (Rom 4:5) and that "faith works by love. (Gal 5:6)" Thus the issue is not whether one ever falls short or not, the issue is whether one is PURE or not. Those who are pure will not PRODUCE the fruit of sin in their life because they LOVE GOD and they LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOUR thus the sins of the flesh in 1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21 and Eph 5:3-5 are OUT OF THE QUESTION) Well, I don't think so. Where would faith come in if they did? You don't understand faith. Faith IS faithfulness, Faith IS abiding in Christ, Faith is walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Faith IS NOT trusting in some abstract provision while you remain in rebellion. Satan has redefined faith to simply being "trust in a provision." How could we know that we must rely on His Righteousness and not our own? We ABIDE in His righteousness. You don't just trust it while you still sin every day in thought, word and deed. NO! You have to die to self, which means CRUCIFY YOUR FLESHLY PASSIONS and ABIDE IN THE SPIRIT. That is TRULY TRUSTING JESUS. People who think they have attained to perfect goodness have just lowered the bar of what perfect goodness is, imo Being made cleanses of all unrighteousness and being made pure (Tit 2:14) is lowering the bar?... And then they could put this yoke onto other people, telling them that they must attain to this perfect goodness as well. It kind of misses the whole "friend of sinners" mark, doesn't it??? You deny any possibility and thus the necessity of heart purity and instead preach "you can sin and not surely die." You entire framework is DEFEAT BY SIN instead of VICTORY OVER SIN.

He is the one I rely on and He is the one that I tell other people to rely on. That's how I was saved. I couldn't attain to what you say must be attained in order to be forgiven and saved. He gave it to me as a gift. The GIFT is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ, ie. ABIDING IN HIM. You know, Ephesians 2....Saved by grace THROUGH faith is an ACTIVE DYNAMIC, it is not trusting in an ABSTRACT NOTION. Satan wants you to believe in this abstract salvation nonsense in order that you never enter the kingdom, that you never truly abide in Christ. He wants you just "trusting" and in the meantime think that "partial doing" is ok because as time goes on God will "make you" be a doer more.

You just gave the perfect example of someone who completely avoided the question. You dodge the questions because to answer them exposes the fallacy of your for theology.

In regards to the issues you brought up.

1. Atonement is an English word that William Tyndale introduced into the Bible. It basically mean "At One Moment" as in the context of the Reformed Doctrine of "Penal Substitution." William Tyndale did not think using the word "reconciliation" was sufficient in regards to attributing full meaning to how he viewed the death of Christ.

Atonement - G2643 - katallagē
From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment), that is, restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

The word "Atonement" (G2643) is used ONCE in the New Testament and it appears in...

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

G2644 is used many other times and is translated "Reconciled" for example...

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The main issue that those who uphold Penal Substitition is that in their minds the "atonement" is a DONE DEAL and all sinners have to do is RECEIVE IT. This is due to them viewing the death of Christ as PURELY a "legal transaction" instead of a "the means to approach God in repentance and faith."

To those who uphold Penal Substitution HEART PURITY has nothing to do with being reconciled to God. Thus they teach that one is reconciled STILL IN REBELLION with a HEART FULLY IF INIQUITY. Satan has utterly perverted the death of Christ in the minds of these people in order to shut the gate to a genuine reconciliation taking place.

The truth is that one approaches God through godly sorrow which produces a genuine repentance where the iniquity is purged from the heart whereby the FORMER SINNER is no longer in rebellion. Thus one is to approach God with a TRUE HEART (Heb 10:22) seeking mercy via the blood of Christ seeking to be cleansed of the guilt of PAST rebellion.

Whilst it is true that we have an advocate IF we sin (1Joh 2:1) the context of that sin is NOT WILLFUL because if we willfully sin AFTER being cleansed (Heb 10:29, Hen 10:26-29) there is no more sacrifice. Jesus did not die as a cloak for ongoing rebellion. The blood of Christ is not a license to keep on sinning which is what Penal Substitution clearly teaches. The blood of Christ can be applied to sins of ignorance but CANNOT be applied to ongoing willful transgression.


How do I perceive the death of Christ (Atonement)? Jesus Christ died as both a sin offering (that our past rebellion be washed away) and as an example (so that we die with Him). Both aspects are essential in order that genuine reconciliation (return to favour) with God takes place.

I have written about it at the following links...The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"
http://thesinmuststop.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-blood-of-christ-ransom-not-penal.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/56891-blood-christ-ransom-not-penal-substitution.html


Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ubstitution-imputed-righteousness-christ.html


What is propitiation?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Propitiation - G2435 -hilastērion
Neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): - mercyseat, propitiation.

Propitiation means Mercy Seat and it is where the past transgressions are washed away and we are made clean.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; [The cessation of evil is a MANDATORY CONDITION, ie. Repentance is MANDATORY]
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The blood was sprinkled in order to cleanse the offering. We are that offering...

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Look at this passage...

Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat (g2435); of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: [sins of ignorance]
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. [The law could not purify the heart]
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [The blood purges the conscience of all defilement]

Satan wants people to reject the above scriptures in order to uphold a teaching where the blood of Christ cleanses ongoing rebellion whereby one can "SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE." Satan's very first lie is upheld as truth by so many who profess faith in Christ, by so many who still "work iniquity."




Can you sin and not surely die?

Do you really believe that you can go and murder someone and remain in a justified state before God? Do you really believe that one can be actively engaged in known transgression and be in a justified state at the very same time?

 

[Skinski7]

This thread is a perfect example of the extremism of Arminianism! It takes free will to a level of insanity.

Grandpa, many thanks for your clear and patient explanations of grace through faith.

Someone already mentioned this verse, but they did not post it. It is pivotal in this whole discussion. So I will make it large, with some bold stuff, hope that is ok?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9[/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship [In other words God fashions us when we are faithful hence...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The good works flow from a pure heart.

Loaded verses - and so nice to make them bold, underline, etc!! It is very easy to selectively quote mine scripture to prove a lie. Eph 2:8-10 is ripped out of context by so many theologians today in order to indirectly uphold the doctrine of "Ye can sin and not surely die."

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;



FAITH IS A WORK! The Deception of Eph 2:8-10

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38901-faith-work-deception-eph-2-8-10-a.html

 

[Grandpa]

You just gave the perfect example of someone who completely avoided the question. You dodge the questions because to answer them exposes the fallacy of your for theology.

In regards to the issues you brought up.

1. Atonement is an English word that William Tyndale introduced into the Bible. It basically mean "At One Moment" as in the context of the Reformed Doctrine of "Penal Substitution." William Tyndale did not think using the word "reconciliation" was sufficient in regards to attributing full meaning to how he viewed the death of Christ.

Atonement - G2643 - katallagē
From G2644; exchange (figuratively adjustment), that is, restoration to (the divine) favor: - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

The word "Atonement" (G2643) is used ONCE in the New Testament and it appears in...

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The concept of atonement answers your question in full. The man who has sinned against God and deserves death, instead is given Life by the atoning Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is this atonement? It is the price paid to God so that the Angel of Death will pass over us. You know, just like the story of Passover in the OT where the children of Israel put lambs blood on their doorposts...

Faith in the Blood of the Lamb is what gives us Atonement for our souls.

Not any works that we have done (heart purity, godly sorrow, and anything else you'd like to throw in here and burn...).

G2644 is used many other times and is translated "Reconciled" for example...

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The main issue that those who uphold Penal Substitition is that in their minds the "atonement" is a DONE DEAL and all sinners have to do is RECEIVE IT. This is due to them viewing the death of Christ as PURELY a "legal transaction" instead of a "the means to approach God in repentance and faith."

To those who uphold Penal Substitution HEART PURITY has nothing to do with being reconciled to God. Thus they teach that one is reconciled STILL IN REBELLION with a HEART FULLY IF INIQUITY. Satan has utterly perverted the death of Christ in the minds of these people in order to shut the gate to a genuine reconciliation taking place.

The truth is that one approaches God through godly sorrow which produces a genuine repentance where the iniquity is purged from the heart whereby the FORMER SINNER is no longer in rebellion. Thus one is to approach God with a TRUE HEART (Heb 10:22) seeking mercy via the blood of Christ seeking to be cleansed of the guilt of PAST rebellion.

You can't come before God with the heart you have made pure by your own works and say "ok God, I am now worthy of your Salvation and goodness".

You can't come before God unless you have been perfectly cleansed of all your sins. There is only One Way to become perfectly cleansed of all your sins and it is not by any of your works. It is only by the Lords Finished Work that you can become perfectly cleansed of all your sins. That's it. And its a gift. We can't earn it because there is nothing that we can give God that puts Him in our debt.

Whilst it is true that we have an advocate IF we sin (1Joh 2:1) the context of that sin is NOT WILLFUL because if we willfully sin AFTER being cleansed (Heb 10:29, Hen 10:26-29) there is no more sacrifice. Jesus did not die as a cloak for ongoing rebellion. The blood of Christ is not a license to keep on sinning which is what Penal Substitution clearly teaches. The blood of Christ can be applied to sins of ignorance but CANNOT be applied to ongoing willful transgression.


How do I perceive the death of Christ (Atonement)? Jesus Christ died as both a sin offering (that our past rebellion be washed away) and as an example (so that we die with Him). Both aspects are essential in order that genuine reconciliation (return to favour) with God takes place.


What is propitiation?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Propitiation - G2435 -hilastērion
Neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): - mercyseat, propitiation.

Propitiation means Mercy Seat and it is where the past transgressions are washed away and we are made clean.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; [The cessation of evil is a MANDATORY CONDITION, ie. Repentance is MANDATORY]
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The blood was sprinkled in order to cleanse the offering. We are that offering...

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Look at this passage...

Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat (g2435); of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: [sins of ignorance]
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. [The law could not purify the heart]
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [The blood purges the conscience of all defilement]

Satan wants people to reject the above scriptures in order to uphold a teaching where the blood of Christ cleanses ongoing rebellion whereby one can "SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE." Satan's very first lie is upheld as truth by so many who profess faith in Christ, by so many who still "work iniquity."




Can you sin and not surely die?

Do you really believe that you can go and murder someone and remain in a justified state before God? Do you really believe that one can be actively engaged in known transgression and be in a justified state at the very same time?

I don't believe in acts of the flesh.

I believe it is us that has a problem with sin, not God.

A person that abides in Christ doesn't walk after the flesh but after the spirit. Does this mean that person is now perfect? No... The flesh still has its desires. We just aren't bound by those desires anymore. We have a New Way.

I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that He is our Advocate with the Father. He is our All in All. The beginning and end of everything we need.

You can try to drive a wedge between God and His little ones by faith, but I don't think its a very good idea.

 

[pickles]

I sometimes wonder what God thinks about how we take His promise, and complicate it so.
Saved by grace though faith, not by what one does, but God's gift in Jesus, lest any man take pride in it.

God said it, so believe it! We are saved by grace!

I sometimes think the work, is simply avoiding the doubts others place in ones path, for it is by faith we walk and in spirit that we worship and grow!

Be still and know that I am God!
So simple, Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh for our salvation, grace being Gods gift given!

God bless
pickles

 

[Skinski7]

I sometimes wonder what God thinks about how we take His promise, and complicate it so.
Saved by grace though faith, not by what one does, but God's gift in Jesus, lest any man take pride in it.

God said it, so believe it! We are saved by grace!

I sometimes think the work, is simply avoiding the doubts others place in ones path, for it is by faith we walk and in spirit that we worship and grow!

Be still and know that I am God!
So simple, Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh for our salvation, grace being Gods gift given!

God bless
pickles

Why is being "faithful" (ie. through faith) complicating God's promises?

Was Abraham complicating things when he "obeyed; and he went out" (Heb 11:8)?

Was Noah's "by faith...moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) complicating things with God?

Were either of them taking pride in God's provision?


To contend that "one must do" is anathema today with so many. Are people that easily deceived?

When one asks a question, "does a murderer have to forsake murdering people BEFORE God will forgive them?" Is it really that difficult to say YES, THEY MUST STOP.

Is it really that difficult to understand that repentance is where we change our minds and thus stop rebelling against God, instead of "not going out" we have a change of mind and "go out," instead of "not building our ark" we have a change of mind and "build our ark." Instead of despising what "grace teaches" we change our mind and "yield to what grace teaches."

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;