Grace through faith.

[Skinski7]

This is what Jesus taught...

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


Doing is a work. Doing is a work of faith.

Not the works of the law. Not following rules and regulations whereby the outside of the cup is superficially made clean whilst the heart remains defiled. No, not that.

The work of "abiding Christ," submitting one's heart to God and WALKING in the steps of Jesus. That is the work we must do. That is the FAITH in "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

So many follow the doctrines of wolves who pervert Paul's writings and thus follow doctrines which deny the plain teachings of Jesus.

Don't be one of them.

[video=youtube;bRfkIoZ65YI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRfkIoZ65YI[/video]


Works of Faith versus Works of the Law
The Pearl of Great Price: Works

 

[silverdollar]

Dying to the flesh is simply a state of mind whereby one has put off a life whereby one is ruled over by fleshly passions. Instead of being driven by fleshly passions we allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit whereby we keep our body under subjection.

There is nothing evil about the flesh. The flesh has natural passions and desires. These passions and desires TEMPT one to sin because the flesh in and of itself seeks gratification. Sin is when one CHOOSES gratification OVER righteousness, thus the sins of the flesh are merely a misuse of the will.

James describes it thus...

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This temptation is common to all men.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


Temptation is a test of our faith.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

There are two roads.

1. Walk according to the lusts of the flesh ---------------------------> DEATH.
2. Walk according to the leading of the Spirit ------------------------> LIFE.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Being led by the Spirit takes precedence over the lusts of the flesh. Hence a genuine Christian has crucified the flesh with the passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The walk of a Christian must match the talk.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

great post. thanks. ok. that makes snese i guess if the bible writes it that way.
it's just the man still though, right? they call it the flesh or fleshly desires i guess like sex and wanting to get into a brawl and so on.
i guess i get that part concerning sex, that can happen without too much of the mind involved but not for long. lol. but its about controlling the body isn't it? using your mind. if your first thought is about Jesus it is easier then.
right on man. good one.
i dont win all the time, sometimes i lose but its harder to give in to it and feel horrible after than to just say no right off.
thanks bro. i wish people would stop saying kill the flesh. thats just weird.

 

[Grandpa]

Carefully read Grandpa's posts. Why cannot he directly address the specific issues of heart purity and the cessation of rebellion?

The reason is because he believes that human being are UNABLE to yield to God unless God SAVES THEM FIRST. Thus one approaches God in a rebellious and disobedient state and cries for mercy and THEN WAITS for God to change them. In the meantime the individual continues in their iniquity. Instead of repentance being where the axe is laid to the root of iniquity in the heart it has been redefined to a "confession of sinfulness." Thus under the deception the old man NEVER DIES and thus the new man CAN NEVER be born.

It is a most crafty deception. Satan has been able to pervert the simplicity of the doctrine according to godliness which by necessity is aligned with abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and replace it with a NOTION of "trusting in a provision" whereby one "perceives" they are IN CHRIST when in fact they are not. This is why there is an allowance of ongoing iniquity whilst one is IN Christ for the IN CHRIST is perceived as a CLOAK FOR VICE.


Whenever I raise the fundamental issues of genuine repentance (ala the cessation of rebellion) and heart purity people generally respond with repudiations of such things with accusations of teaching "self righteousness," "adding to the cross," "not trusting Jesus," "earning salvation" etc.

"

Did the Lord Jesus save you Skinski?

If He did, what did He save you from?

Were you born again of the Spirit by your own will?

It is absolutely silly that you would attempt to speak with authority when you have no idea even of the fundamentals of Christianity.

The only thing crafty here is how you attack faith. Most of the fundamental FACTS of Christianity that we hold and have learned by FAITH you attack.

Its pretty easy to attack these faith based beliefs. We can't prove it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt because faith doesn't work that way. We can only show you what we have been shown.

But anyone can use the Law to bash whoever they want. That is easy. That is what the Law does. It accuses us constantly.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Not choosing to be free from sin. Not making ones self free from sin. Being made free from sin.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Here's a couple more, just for you.

Romans 9:32-33
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Works of the Law. You know. Purifying your own heart. Ceasing your own rebellion.

James 1:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[silverdollar]

Did the Lord Jesus save you Skinski?

If He did, what did He save you from?

Were you born again of the Spirit by your own will?

It is absolutely silly that you would attempt to speak with authority when you have no idea even of the fundamentals of Christianity.

The only thing crafty here is how you attack faith. Most of the fundamental FACTS of Christianity that we hold and have learned by FAITH you attack.

Its pretty easy to attack these faith based beliefs. We can't prove it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt because faith doesn't work that way. We can only show you what we have been shown.

But anyone can use the Law to bash whoever they want. That is easy. That is what the Law does. It accuses us constantly.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Not choosing to be free from sin. Not making ones self free from sin. Being made free from sin.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Here's a couple more, just for you.

Romans 9:32-33
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Works of the Law. You know. Purifying your own heart. Ceasing your own rebellion.

James 1:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

that makes sense to me. i just heard someone preach Jesus for a long time and then one day it was like Jesus came near em, or made himself known to me and i really really believed. i felt him love me.
it was only after that i could see the world and myself and the way i used to be. i never could have changed before. i never thought i needed to.

 

[RedTent]

There is a lot of scripture thrown around here to prove different points rather than to find the principles of God. All about works, is one group. We find that God wants us to know it is His holiness and not our works that saves us for living with Him eternally. We can't do that by ourselves without Him.

Next scripture tells us that it takes faith. That has to be more than just understanding about God, for we are told that the Devil does that well. We are to look to Abraham for an example of faith. His faith certainly included acting on it. He had learned to trust in all that God is enough that when God asked him to give his son he loved dearly he acted on it. So we find it wasn't the actions or works of Abraham but the faith, but if Abraham hadn't had faith he wouldn't have acted. So they are part of each other.

So our conclusion has to be that it is not through our actions that we receive grace, we receive grace through faith. But if we have faith we will act. If we won't act, it cancels out faith.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski in Blue.

great post. thanks. ok. that makes snese i guess if the bible writes it that way.
it's just the man still though, right? they call it the flesh or fleshly desires i guess like sex and wanting to get into a brawl and so on. If one has genuinely repented and thus abides in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (having been cleansed by the blood) then there is no "wanting to get in a brawl" or "wanting illicit sex." This is because the minds eye is focused on Christ whereby the light of God quickens our very bodies whereby we are empowered to walk in complete victory over the flesh, sin and the devil.

Sure the natural passions still exist (such as sexual desire) but these natural passions are ruled over by our submissiveness to the Spirit of God. Therefore these passions don't draw us into sin because the root of sin which is iniquity (really a refusal to abide in Christ/yield to God) has been cut off at the source.

It is for this reason that Paul would teach that we are to put on the WHOLE ARMOUR OF GOD. For Satan's desire is for us to grow complacent in order that the old man be reborn whereby we are again overcome and corrupted by sin.


i guess i get that part concerning sex, that can happen without too much of the mind involved but not for long. lol. but its about controlling the body isn't it? using your mind. if your first thought is about Jesus it is easier then.
right on man. good one. The minds eye must be set on Christ. You are correct in saying that "it is about controlling the body" but not in the sense that we control the body "in the flesh." The power of God is manifest through us as we ABIDE in the Spirit.

Jesus put it like this...

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Jesus is speaking of the "minds eye" or "our focus." We must be 100% fixated upon the Lord in our minds which is where genuine saving faith comes in. When we fully yield to God the power of God is made manifest in us and it is by this power that we can endure all things.

When Paul teaches that we are "saved by grace through faith and not of works" it is within the context of the "minds eye being single." Thus a human being does not overcome the world APART from the power of God, hence "not of works."

Look at how Paul phrases it carefully...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Notice that the "by grace are ye saved through faith" is the opposite of "being saved of ourselves."

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The "not of works" is in the context of the "not of yourselves" in which lies a boast. This is because the methodology which God brings a soul to salvation is through SYNERGY. There is a WORKING TOGETHER whereby God is LEADING and the human being is FOLLOWING.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are "God's workmanship" and not "our own workmanship." We are "created IN Christ Jesus" unto good works. What this means is that the fruit of righteousness will manifest due to one "abiding in Christ." It is all about being PLUGGED INTO GOD.

Being PLUGGED INTO GOD is the whole context of the passage. Go back a few verses and Paul says this...

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [The power comes from God via a QUICKENING OF THE SPIRIT]
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [the children of disobedience "walk according to the course of this world" which is the OPPOSITE of "walking according to the Spirit of God."]
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. [The word "conversation" means CONDUCT and the children of disobedience walk according to the "lusts of the flesh" fulfilling "carnal desires." Those who are IN Christ have put off this way of life and thus no longer walk in this way.]

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [Those born of God WALK according to the will of God and NOT the lusts of the flesh.]

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved [God brings life to our spirit when we ABIDE IN CHRIST and Paul likens this "quickening" to "grace." See grace is not a "cloak for vice" rather it is EMPOWERMENT TO WALK SIN FREE.]
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is in being raised up WITH CHRIST by the power of God (the quickening) that we are SET FREE from sin.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Carefully read Romans 6:4-7 and really think about what Paul is saying.

The "body of sin" is literally destroyed through DYING WITH CHRIST whereby we can then be RAISED UP WITH CHRIST. It is through this rebirth that we are SET FREE from the SERVICE OF SIN.

Look at what Paul writes to the Colossians...

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [We PUT OFF the body of sins via HEART CIRCUMCISION]
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [This is speaking of the "baptism of repentance" where the axe is laid to the root of iniquity in the heart whereby one then SUBMITS to God, it is being submissive (faithfulness) to God that His grace is then MADE EFFECTUAL to the new birth. "Operation" in the Greek literally means ENERGY or POWER thus it is by ABIDING IN THE POWER OF GOD that we are brought to NEW LIFE, this is the QUICKENING]
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [Paul is teaching how we go from a state of deadness to a state of being alive]
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [Jesus overcame the world by walking in the Spirit and we are to do likewise. Genuine salvation is an actual MANIFEST STATE of walking in the light as He is in the light. This is why there is no "bondage to sin" in salvation.]

Apostate Christianity has completely subverted all this this by treating salvation as PURELY FORENSIC whereby one is justified via a CLOAK instead of actually having the HEART MADE PURE (which is why genuine heart purity is utterly denied in modern theology).
i dont win all the time, sometimes i lose but its harder to give in to it and feel horrible after than to just say no right off. You are still in the flesh if sin is still ruling over you. If you serve sin you are a slave to sin (Rom 6:16). You cannot serve two masters. The sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle of modern Christianity is a symptom of the false gospel message of being "saved IN sins." Jesus does not save people IN their sins. Jesus saves people FROM sin. Look at this passage...

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The false teaches complete ignore that passage for they are absolutely opposed to the idea that a genuine Christian has "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." They teach that a Christian is still is "carnal and sold under sin" and is thus very much still in bondage to the lusts of the flesh, they just have a CLOAK for this state in the "death of Christ." They teach the deception of SUBSTITUTIONAL THEOLOGY where the cross is a CLOAK FOR ONGOING VICE. There is no genuine "being set free from sin" in their message. All they teach is that "there is no condemnation" because "Jesus paid the fine they owed." It's all a deception when you dig down into how they manipulate the scriptures.

Notice how Peter clearly says that a Christian HAS ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust. Peter says this because he knows that those who are IN Christ have "crucified the flesh with the passions and desires" (Gal 5:24) and thus no longer walk according to the lusts of men (1Pet 4:2). They submit their members to righteousness and not to sin (Rom 6:12-13) by abiding in God's grace via WORKING TOGETHER with God (2Cor 6:1) whereby the grace of God is made effectual to the saving of the soul.

The entire Bible harmonises perfectly on this. The teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul. Perfect harmony.

You see what Satan has done is undermine the methodology of genuine repentance and faith which is how one is to approach God seeking reconciliation. Satan has undermined it via the introduction of doctrines which redefine repentance and faith.

Repentance in the Bible is the change of mind wrought via a godly sorrow whereby a sinner is completely broken on the rock of Christ. The change of mind ensures a genuine change of action (conversion) where the rebellion to God has CEASED. Satan does not want people to forsake their rebellion and thus has been able to redefine repentance to mean a "confession of sinfulness." Satan has been able to do this via the introduction of the "born in sin" lie whereby the foundation is laid where "MAN CANNOT FORSAKE REBELLION" whereby the entire Gospel message is twisted to fit this notion and thus we have "salvation IN sin."

This is why modern Christian theology upholds the notion that a Christian is double-minded and continues to "fall into rebellion" and yet REMAINS in a justified state. The truth is that the person never came to a genuine rerpentance in the first place, never crucified their old man, was never quickened by the Spirit, and thus was never set free from sin. Instead they bought into the false gospel of PACKAGE SALVATION thinking that by "receiving Jesus" (which in their mind is the legal transaction of Penal Substitution) that they are saved. It is in this condition that they then "wait on God to change them" and they view sanctification as "sinning less."

Their hearts were NEVER made pure and NEVER will be made pure, so long as they remain under the delusion.

Dig deep and don't be deceived.


thanks bro. i wish people would stop saying kill the flesh. thats just weird.

 

[RedTent]

It seems to me that todays church is so hung up on grace and faith that it is sending many to their spiritual death.

All of today's church is teaching well the concept of being rather than doing, and that is through teaching grace and faith. It is good. It makes for Christians who are truly genuine. But by making light of the doing, we live with our thoughts focused mostly on house cleaning and running our businesses with God thoughts worked in between. It makes it hard to live for our Lord.

Many Jews are now meeting and accepting Christ. Some of them delight in that they are freed from any of the rituals that many had made part of their former worship. Others wonder why they aren't to honor their God with what they do day to day. They said that before, nothing they did from morning to night was separated from God worship, now no routine includes God.

 

[Skinski7]

Grandpa in Black
Skinski in Blue.


Did the Lord Jesus save you Skinski? Yes indeed.

If He did, what did He save you from? Jesus saved me from the both the bondage of sin and the condemnation of sin.

Were you born again of the Spirit by your own will? I was born again by the Spirit but that in no way negates the exercise of my will in FREELY CHOOSING to submit to the call of God. In your mind you cannot have the "free exercise of the will" and "the will of God" coexist. Thus you reject SYNERGISM and uphold MONOGISM. Yet the scriptures clearly reveal that the salvation of the soul is wrought through us WORKING TOGETHER with God lest the grace of God is received in vain (2Cor 6:1).

You need to get over the fallacy of "inability" wrought by adhering to the deception of being "born in sin." Your adherence to being "born in sin" prevents you from coming to a knowledge of what the Bible actually teaches. It is the little leaven which leavens the whole lump.

It is absolutely silly that you would attempt to speak with authority when you have no idea even of the fundamentals of Christianity.

The only thing crafty here is how you attack faith. Most of the fundamental FACTS of Christianity that we hold and have learned by FAITH you attack. No, I attack the false doctrines of Original Sin (being born in sin) and Penal Substitution. You might call them "fundamental facts" but you are deceived.

I don't just blow smoke about it either, I have concisely documented my position with both scripture and historical records. Where these doctrines originated and gained acceptance can clearly be demonstrated by studying history. Both doctrines can also be clearly exposed by a clear exegesis of the scriptures by demonstrating how the promoters of these doctrines isolate and proof text verses completely out of context.

I put together a documentary on the subject of Original Sin whereby I duplicated the research of Chris Hill and concisely annotated his presentation into a visual format. The doctrine of being "born in sin" ala "Original Sin" was accepted into Christian orthodoxy via the prolific influence of Augustine of Hippo in the Fourth Century. It's a historical fact.

That documentary can be found at this link...

[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]

Penal Substitution was developed about 400 years ago by reformed thinkers who added a judicial aspect to Anselm's 11th century Satisfaction model of the atonement. The following link contains some of my writings with annotated references on this issue...

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ubstitution-imputed-righteousness-christ.html

Its pretty easy to attack these faith based beliefs. We can't prove it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt because faith doesn't work that way. We can only show you what we have been shown. You believe those doctrines by a blind faith in the face of clear evidence which clearly demonstrates them as false. It is very easy to prove those doctrines as heresy via the scriptures themselves, sound reasoning, and the historical record. You have to ignore all three and cling to out of context isolated proof texts. That is your choice to do that, yet opinions are not sacred, only the truth is sacred and we all better be sure that our opinions are in line with the truth. We have to be willing to bend to reality as opposed to twisting reality to fit our perceptions.

But anyone can use the Law to bash whoever they want. That is easy. That is what the Law does. It accuses us constantly. I don't bash anyone with the law. The reason you say such a thing is because you don't make any distinction between the "works of faith" and the "works of the law." Thus to you any implication that man has to "do anything" in regards to salvation is "saved by works" and is easily dismissed.

The truth though is that FAITH WORKS BY LOVE (Gal 5:6) and LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14) for FAITH ESTABLISHES THE LAW (Rom 3:31) for it is by faith that we walk according to the Spirit and FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW (Rom 8:1-4).

What the Bible is teaching is that true righteousness is rooted in heart purity which is a result of ABIDING IN CHRIST or being PLUGGED INTO GOD. True righteousness is not rooted in submitting oneself to rules and regulations, that is legalism. This is why Paul wrote...Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

It's not hard to understand. It's so very simple. Yield to God (obey Him) and you will manifest the righteousness of God in your life.

The Bible says this...Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yet you teach that "God is the author of the obedience of those who are saved." You teach the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Here you go isolating and proof texting scripture in order to defend being "saved IN your sins."

Being "made free from sin" WHY???

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obedience from the heart is absolutely MANDATORY in relation to being SET FREE FROM SIN.

Yet in your doctrine one is "set free from sin" and yet can still be "serving sin." It is nonsense.

Paul said this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Which mirrored the words of Jesus...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Anyone who "yields themselves to sin" is a "servant of sin." It's what the Bible plainly states.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

In John 8:36 Jesus spoke of being made FREE INDEED. In Rom 6:17-18 Paul speaks of being SET FREE due to having obeyed from the heart.

We either obey God or we don't. There is no mixing of "serving Christ" and "serving sin." It is one or the other.

One is either in rebellion to God or they are in obedience to God. There is no halfway mark. One has either been saved from the bondage and condemnation of sin or they have not. If one is truly IN Christ they are a new creation where ALL things have been made new.

Not choosing to be free from sin. Not making ones self free from sin. Being made free from sin. Yet you believe that one is "made free from sin" and yet still "carnal and sold under sin." It's like you are taking a bath in the mud pit, you are clean and not clean at the same time. It is nonsense. Salvation to you is totally IMAGINARY. It is this POSITIONAL CLAIM TO BEING CLEAN whilst in actual reality you remain inwardly defiled carnal and sold under sin, a wretched man.

Do you really believe that the salvation God offers leaves men defiled and in bondage to the lusts of their flesh? Is that a demonstration of God's power? The death of Christ is merely a CLOAK for ongoing defilement? Do you really believe that God's plan is just POSITIONAL. Wake up to what you actually believe, it is horrible. Your doctrine forces you to defend ongoing rebellion in Christian's. You don't realise that you are preaching "Ye Can Sin and Not Surely Die."

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The context of Romans 9 is the nations of Israel (Rom 9:4) and how God chose to use them to bring forth the promise. Yet you use Rom 9 to defend the notion that God forgives sinners whilst they remain in a state of rebellion. See how twisted that is?

In order to believe that you have to discard all the passages in the Bible which clearly state that God's mercy and forgiveness is granted on the condition that the rebellion to God is forsaken.

You subsribe to a twisting of Paul's doctrine and use it to justify you COMPLETELY IGNORING what other parts of the Bible plainly state. This is why folks like you NEVER have an answer for many other passages in the Bible. All you do is quote your out of context proof texts and then pretend that the Bible does not teach the opposite of your contention.

Does Romans 9 cancel out this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

or this...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

No it does not because Romans 9 is clearly speaking of the NATIONS and not INDIVIDUALS.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Then Paul uses this as an example...

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God used Pharoah by hardening him so he would persist in his rebellion that he be made an example of. If you do a word study in the Hebrew of how Pharaoh's heart was hardened you will find that there is more than one word used that is tranlated "hardened" and you will find that what occurred that Pharaoh FREELY CHOSE to despise God and "hardened his own heart" and then God in reaction to that "stengthened Pharoah" in his rebellion so he would persist to the end and thus be used by God to demonstrate His power. I encourage you to do a study on that and you'll find it to be true.

The false teachers will never tell you something like that because it contradicts how they twist Romans 9 as pertaining to God's sovereignty in regards to Unconditional Election (U of TULIP). These people are deceivers and their deception is like an onion with layer upon layer of lies. One error being established upon another thus giving the illusion that the lie is established upon the truth.
Here's a couple more, just for you. I could go at this all day because everything you put forth in support of your assertion that we are "saved in sin" is taken completely out of context.

Romans 9:32-33
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Compare that verse to this...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The difference it this...

Justification is by a FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.

Justification is not by OBEDIENCE TO RULES AND REGULATIONS.

The Jews sought their justification in the Mosaic Code as opposed to a faith that works by love. It appears you cannot grasp that. The essential truth is HEART PURITY verses LAW KEEPING. True righteousness flows from a CLEAN HEART as opposed to regmented rule keeping.

Look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees...

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

It is a HEART ISSUE. The just WALK BY FAITH a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE.

All the law can ever do is make one OUTWARDLY APPEAR RIGHTEOUS. That is why the one cannot be made righteous by the law. It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that makes one INWARDLY PURE whereby the outside of the cup be clean also.

Look at this passage...

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Read that passage several times and let it sink in. Outward regmentation of conduct is DONE AWAY WITH via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. Hence those that are IN Christ are not under the law. They are a law unto themselves having the Spirit of God indwelling within and thus the outward fruit will be good.

When Jesus came upon the scene the Pharisees could not grasp this truth. They saw Jesus as overthrowing the the law of Moses when Jesus was actually fulfilling it.

The law of Moses was only ever a SHADOW of the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. They were in bondage to the shadow and due to their ignorance and stubborness they rejected the that which gave birth to the shadow. The law was always spiritual. It is the Spirit that gives life but the letter brings death. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Can you grasp it?

It is all so simple but the strongholds of error produce cognitive dissonance within the mind whereby the simple truth is rejected.

Please think on these things. Really think deeply and reflect on it. I am not lying to you. This is the plain truth. It is simple. It is the lies which are complex where all the confusion and debates reside (hence the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism - BOTH ARE ERROR). One has to escape the system of error and build a solid foundation on the simplicity that is found in Jesus Christ and His doctrine (ie. repent anc believe, trust and abide, keep His words etc.).

[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Works of the Law. You know. Purifying your own heart. Ceasing your own rebellion.

 

[Skinski7]

James 1:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Yes but look at the context.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
It is the "word of truth" by which we are born (begat) of God. Look at what James writes a few verses later...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

It is the word implanted within which saves us. It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ, it is the Logos we abide in, we abide in Him and He abides in us. One cannot abide in the "word of truth" via "meekly receiving it" unless that lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness first. Hence Jesus preached REPENTANCE.

James goes on...

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

You see obedience is ESSENTIAL. It is in being a DOER that the grace of God is made effectual that the heart of men be made pure.

Which is why Peter would say...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again by the "word of God." It is in aligning ourselves with the Spirit of God and thus WALKING in it that the inner change within a man is produced. Hence we are made CLEAN through the word (Joh 15:3) which is why...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I pray to God that those under the deception may have their eyes opened that they may see.

 

[Widdekind]

swift summary:

James said "Faith without works is dead"
Paul said "Salvation by Grace through Faith...not by works"

James meant "works of Faith", e.g. charity, visiting "fatherless & widows" (James 1)
Paul mean "works of the Law", e.g. circumcision & Sabbath-keeping (Col 2)

no contradiction -- Salvation, by God's charitable Grace, through Faith [in Jesus as Christ, and also as Lord] ... producing (and corroborated by) righteous works of Faith

talk is cheap -- anybody claiming Christ, whilst producing no fruits commensurate with Christ, are false, not Faithful

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa in Black
Skinski in Blue.


Did the Lord Jesus save you Skinski? Yes indeed.

If He did, what did He save you from? Jesus saved me from the both the bondage of sin and the condemnation of sin.

If the Lord has saved you from both the bondage and condemnation of sin why do you try to show people that they must purge themselves from sin and rebellion before the Lord Jesus Saves them from it?

WHy not just tell of the Lords Great Power in setting you free and lead people to Christ?

Are you worried that they won't do it your way and will get saved in a different fashion?

I don't understand people who have been saved putting any requirements on anyone other than having to come to the Lord Jesus...

You already know it wasn't by your own power that you were saved. So what is the big argument...?

 

[Skinski7]

swift summary:

James said "Faith without works is dead" Because faith is the ACTIVE DYNAMIC of yielding to God's lead.
Paul said "Salvation by Grace through Faith...not by works" THROUGH FAITH is the dynamic whereby grace is effectually put to use. Hence Noah BY FAITH built the ark. If Noah did not have the ACTIVE DYNAMIC of a WORKING FAITH then he would have drowned with the rest of the world for God's grace would have been received in vain (2Cor 6:1).

James meant "works of Faith", e.g. charity, visiting "fatherless & widows" (James 1) Although it is important to note that deeds can be done APART from a faith that works by love. The modern church system is full of "charitable works" yet is also "full of sin" because the gospel they hold to denies the "faith that works by love" whereby the "heart is made pure" (Act 15:9) through abiding in Christ (Joh 15:3-5).
Paul mean "works of the Law", e.g. circumcision & Sabbath-keeping (Col 2) Exactly! By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Keeping the Sabbath or or getting circumcised has NOTHING to do with heart purity and therefore true righteousness.

no contradiction -- Salvation, by God's charitable Grace, through Faith [in Jesus as Christ, and also as Lord] ... producing (and corroborated by) righteous works of Faith Amen!

talk is cheap -- anybody claiming Christ, whilst producing no fruits commensurate with Christ, are false, not Faithful Amen!

Thanks for your post.

 

[RedTent]

swift summary:

James said "Faith without works is dead"
Paul said "Salvation by Grace through Faith...not by works"

James meant "works of Faith", e.g. charity, visiting "fatherless & widows" (James 1)
Paul mean "works of the Law", e.g. circumcision & Sabbath-keeping (Col 2)

no contradiction -- Salvation, by God's charitable Grace, through Faith [in Jesus as Christ, and also as Lord] ... producing (and corroborated by) righteous works of Faith

talk is cheap -- anybody claiming Christ, whilst producing no fruits commensurate with Christ, are false, not Faithful

Now we are hearing what God is all about, not dissecting scripture to make it to our meaning.

I would like to add that those works of the law are not in the least necessary, but they can be used in worship if used under the way God meant them. The Jews were telling them they were necessary. For thousands of years all gentiles were pagans and if they knew God they became Jews. Now, the message was going to the gentiles and they were becoming God's people without becoming Jews. The Jews were bewildered and unbelieving even. It was quite a change for them. We are not pagans. We belong to Christ. We are free, but free to use God's suggestions or not. Many Jews are meeting Christ, now. Christ is God's Son, He and the Father are one. I don't think we can tell Jews, new to Christ, they may not worship God because of Christ in the way they have always done. Or say we must be stopped from this type of worship. Orthodox Jews include God in everything they do, even as they wash their hands. It is from scripture. Can it be wrong? We worship God in ways that recently was discovered came from pagans. We say that is right.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski in Blue.

If the Lord has saved you from both the bondage and condemnation of sin why do you try to show people that they must purge themselves from sin and rebellion before the Lord Jesus Saves them from it?

I clearly teach that godly sorrow works a genuine repentance unto salvation (2Cor 7:10-11). It is in repentance that the mind changes thus necessitating a change in deeds. Hence a genuine repentance is proven by deeds (Act 26:20). Thus the rebellion to God has CEASED whereby God can then author their salvation because they obey Him (Heb 5:9). One does not "work together" with God when still in rebellion to His will.

Is the above paragraph being preached in the church system?

NO!

They preach "receive the provision of Penal Substitution" by "trusting in Jesus" and BINGO you are saved. There is no cessation of rebellion, there is no genuine repentance, there is no genuine conversion.

Which is why there is book after book after book in the so called "Christian Bookshops" about how to deal with the ongoing sin in one's life.

That is why I write, speak and preach.

Paul wrote this...

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

IF is a condition.

Do you ignore it?


WHy not just tell of the Lords Great Power in setting you free and lead people to Christ?

Have you not read???

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you not read???

Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

People take deception lightly. So many perceive it is the Mormon's or Catholics or Seventh Day Adventists who are deceived yet cannot see the deception in their own midst.

The religious system throughout history has always been a bastion of self deception. The religious authorities in Jeremiah's day were thoroughly void of the truth. In Jesus day the theologians were completely deceived. Yet people think it is different today as they promote the Paul Washer's, John MacArthur's, John Piper's, Billy Graham's, John Calvin's, Martin Luther's etc.

Wolves don't look like wolves, they appear as lambs.

Are you worried that they won't do it your way and will get saved in a different fashion? You simply do not understand. One cannot be "saved IN sin." One cannot be justified whilst still in rebellion to God. It is not getting "saved in a different fashion" it is no salvation at all.
I don't understand people who have been saved putting any requirements on anyone other than having to come to the Lord Jesus... HOW you come is key. One must approach God in REPENTANCE. We don't approach God on our own terms, we approach God on His terms and God conditions "repentance and faith."If there was no methodology as to HOW one comes to Jesus then the Bible would not teach things like "repentance for remission" or "godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation" or "strive to enter in at the strait gate" or "pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow me."In Acts it says...Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.



You already know it wasn't by your own power that you were saved. So what is the big argument...? Your refusal to offer anything of substance in your objections to my writings speaks volumes.

 

[Skinski7]

Now we are hearing what God is all about, not dissecting scripture to make it to our meaning.

I would like to add that those works of the law are not in the least necessary, but they can be used in worship if used under the way God meant them. The Jews were telling them they were necessary. For thousands of years all gentiles were pagans and if they knew God they became Jews. Now, the message was going to the gentiles and they were becoming God's people without becoming Jews. The Jews were bewildered and unbelieving even. It was quite a change for them. We are not pagans. We belong to Christ. We are free, but free to use God's suggestions or not. Many Jews are meeting Christ, now. Christ is God's Son, He and the Father are one. I don't think we can tell Jews, new to Christ, they may not worship God because of Christ in the way they have always done. Or say we must be stopped from this type of worship. Orthodox Jews include God in everything they do, even as they wash their hands. It is from scripture. Can it be wrong? We worship God in ways that recently was discovered came from pagans. We say that is right.

Good post.

Paul supports what you say in writing...

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Thus we have liberty in Christ. Not liberty to sin but a liberty to do what is right as governed by our conscience as we are plugged into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Grandpa]

Skinski in Blue.

I clearly teach that godly sorrow works a genuine repentance unto salvation (2Cor 7:10-11). It is in repentance that the mind changes thus necessitating a change in deeds. Hence a genuine repentance is proven by deeds (Act 26:20). Thus the rebellion to God has CEASED whereby God can then author their salvation because they obey Him (Heb 5:9). One does not "work together" with God when still in rebellion to His will.

Is the above paragraph being preached in the church system?

NO!

There were things that I did before I came to Christ. But I don't credit myself with those works.

I was drawn by the Lord the whole way to salvation. The tribulation. The sorrow. The repentance. The trying to be perfect before Him.

I don't think I could have done all that even if I had known in advance that it was the way to salvation.

I think that's why Ephesians 2 says salvation is not of works, lest any boast.

Does everyone have to go through what I went through to receive salvation? I don't presume that the Lord saves everyone in exactly the same way. We are all a little different in what our problems are and what the solution will be.

I suppose there is a general way in which people are saved. But I definitely wouldn't put a formula to it and say if you do these x,y,z works you will be saved. Because then you are putting salvation into the will of men.

Scripture clearly says salvation is by the will of God.


John 1:12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[SUP]13[/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[zone]

are skinski and homes still claiming they have no sin?

cast them out, they have no truth

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Those who say they do not have a corrupted nature are liars, because all do sin and it is impossible to sin without a corrupted nature.

The cross does not remove one's corrupted nature, but it does cause GOD's judgment to pass over the effects of one's sins, i.e., eternal death. All people rightfully deserve eternal death; but GOD in mercy passes over that judgment for those who trust in that mercy. This is the faith of Christ that we receive and exercise in GOD's grace.

Unbelief in this reality is the ultimate, mortal sin for which there is no forgiveness. One must repent of unbelief in GOD's forgiveness in order to find forgiveness.

This is the faith that allows us with sinful natures to be holy. GOD's grace makes, and keeps, us holy, not our deeds. If we do something that is sinful, we become defiled. To be cleansed of the defilement we simply must return to that from which we turned: GOD's grace. Turning from that grace is what caused us to sin. Turning back to that eternally available grace through acknowledgment of sin is what cleanses and makes us holy.

 

[starfield]

Those who say they do not have a corrupted nature are liars, because all do sin and it is impossible to sin without a corrupted nature.

The cross does not remove one's corrupted nature, but it does cause GOD's judgment to pass over the effects of one's sins, i.e., eternal death. All people rightfully deserve eternal death; but GOD in mercy passes over that judgment for those who trust in that mercy. This is the faith of Christ that we receive and exercise in GOD's grace.

Unbelief in this reality is the ultimate, mortal sin for which there is no forgiveness. One must repent of unbelief in GOD's forgiveness in order to find forgiveness.

This is the faith that allows us with sinful natures to be holy. GOD's grace makes, and keeps, us holy, not our deeds. If we do something that is sinful, we become defiled. To be cleansed of the defilement we simply must return to that from which we turned: GOD's grace. Turning from that grace is what caused us to sin. Turning back to that eternally available grace through acknowledgment of sin is what cleanses and makes us holy.

Now is the corrupted nature somehow stronger than the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit? Are we are to submit to the corrupted nature or the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Let's see what the scripture says:
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Eph 4:22-24
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation [behaviour] the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

God has given us a new man, a new spirit, clad in the robe of righteousness and true holiness which we are to put on.

 

[homwardbound]

How will we be saved? Grace through faith? please post the verse so we can see!
And what does this FAITH IN JESUS means... Do you have this faith, this UNWAVERING faith.... I do not hve it. Some say it is doubt? Well I might doubt MANY things about myself, but about God, NOPE! Not a single thing... There IS NOTHING in the Bible I do not believe 100%.

The only thing I do doubt, as ZONE correctly stated is.... AM I ALSO CHOSEN. I know 1000 people said I was, but what is the use, IF I CANNOT BELIEVE! I might be selfish today, to make it all about me AGAIN! But I hate it, when I ask God something, and it is not done! I hate it if I ask God to do as HE PROMISES, and nothing happens.

I ask NOTHING for myself, but for others, and I ask IN HIS WILL... BUT!!!! God does not hear, so I stopped asking. For four years now, I pray not, but just say... IF I SEE THIS, YOU SHOULD ALSO LORD.... YOU DAO AS YOU PLEASE, I ASK NOTHING!

Then there comes the times when I am just in conversation with the WORD if you like, maybe if I say I am in conversation with GOD people might take offence... So let us just say I start talkin Bible, and the Bible starts talking to me... Scripture would come up in my head, as NOTHING ever before... I would HEAR the Word of God in my head, and I would fight it and argue it, and more Scripture would come up, and if I take up the Bible and go to that scripture, the surrounding scripture would ALL FALL IN PLACE and I would be ENLIGHTENED by the TRUTH....

Those moments are amazing... And there is not one ounce of doubt in that. When I do want to pray, it is no longer REQUESTS, but rather... Speak lord thou servant listens... And I do. And HE DOES... but God cannot do this for no reason, so I would not jump the gun, but wait on the LORD.... He will DO what HE planned for my life.

The doubt I have? I still cannot believe HE CHOSE ME! That is UNREAL! And when I believe what HE IS GOING TO MAKE ME IN THE COMPLETED WORK OF GOD.... I just am bommed OUT. Few people believe what God REGENERATE... It is truly a GODLY WORK.


MAy God bless you with HIS POTTERY WORK! A vessel unto honour. Amen

Maybe Cobus God only want this posted below from each of us, I wonder really not a scripture but a thought
Comfort Me by letting Me know that you would see Me just to dwell in My Presence. Not for teaching, not for material gain, not even for a message, but for Me. The longing of the human heart to be loved for itself is something caught from the Great Divine Heart."

He did go t the cross and did die for all sins to take them away in his Father's sight so he could give you his holy Ghost seeing you through his son as forgiven and righteous by his Son I wonder is it possible that he did do it all for you ans thewhole world?
Colossians 2:13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,