the hard truth

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May 24, 2013
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#21
I find it strange that I clearly see that Old Law exactly as Paul said to be nailed to the cross with Christ and am able to be found in God's church every day keeping the Sabbath but you who advocate only one day a week should be asking that question.

LOL. :) Amusing indeed.

But I also appreciate that you read but not fully understand scriptures as this one: Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.."

Nor do you understand this one: Ephesians 2:15-16 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.."

I will tell you exactly why you do not understand it.

Whether realized or unrealized to yourself, you are thinking that the enmity of the law was merely that it was not applied to the two peoples equally. But that is not true, as we see here: Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."


So then your premise is wrong that the law did not apply equally to all and if you think a Gentile did not have the same offer to him to be able to keep God's Law Covenant and live, then you deny that God told Israel to invite foreigners to become proselytes.

So, what does that leave us with? It leaves us with God suspending the judgement upon the world by that law that we might judge ourselves by it instead of others: 1 Corinthians 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

We now share that word to others and based upon whether they accept or reject that word they judge themselves as being unwilling to hear God's word, while blaming us and claiming it is we that are judging them: Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."


It is now about more than just revealing sin. Sin can be forgiven but haughtiness which refuses to listen to God and cease sinning will not be forgiven. Joshua 24:19 "And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."

Therefore now our ministry is both about salvation and about delivering God's judgment to the people. And the focus of that judgment by means of God's word is to uncover all the secrets of haughtiness in men that this haughtiness being revealed, Christ will take aim at to destroy it out of the earth.

But the Old Law Covenant was abolished because it aimed at condemning man for sin alone.
It sounds as if you believe the 10 Commandments are now void. I have some questions for you if you care to answer them. I'm curious. At exactly what time in History are you suggesting that the Law of God (10 Commandments) became void or "nailed to a cross" as you understand it? Answer that one,, and then I have some follow up.

Thanks for the comment.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#22
It sounds as if you believe the 10 Commandments are now void. I have some questions for you if you care to answer them. I'm curious. At exactly what time in History are you suggesting that the Law of God (10 Commandments) became void or "nailed to a cross" as you understand it? Answer that one,, and then I have some follow up.

Thanks for the comment.
Col 2:14

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#23
It sounds as if you believe the 10 Commandments are now void. I have some questions for you if you care to answer them. I'm curious. At exactly what time in History are you suggesting that the Law of God (10 Commandments) became void or "nailed to a cross" as you understand it? Answer that one,, and then I have some follow up.

Thanks for the comment.
They are yet alive by spirit through love even as Paul described at Romans 13:8-10.

That entire law is yet alive by spirit because it can only give life through spirit. A law to unholy flesh cannot give life but only condemnation of sin, thus empowering sin to kill. Ponder Romans chapter 7 intensely and see. It is all there. Still, you must learn that much of it was mere prophetic foreshadows, not the reality but a mere shadow of the coming reality in Christ.

The promises of that Old Law Covenant were all the promises given to Abraham which can only be given by spirit but God challenged that flesh and said, "Prove that you can be faithful to me of your own accord and then I will give them to you by flesh."

The New Covenant is a spiritual Covenant whereas that Old Covenant was a Covenant of the flesh, even as it's circumcision.

Hear Paul: Romans 4:8 "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it [the righteousness that obtained God's blessings of the promises to Abraham, per Roman 4:3,9] then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

For just as I told you, the Leitical Laws scream loudly that God gives no promises to that which is not holy. I have pointed your nose so that you can look and see, not so that you can refuse to look or to see.

Here what I am saying. That Old Law Covenant conditionally offered promises to the flesh upon the basis that flesh be actually able to keep all of God's law. When God said to them, "If you will obey my voice and keep my law", God was challenging the flesh to prove that it could do what Abraham was able to do by a spirit of faith God attributed to be righteousness. God did that to show up the flesh for it's unholiness that they might repent and find righteousness the same way Abraham did by the spirit of faith. And this inability for them to do would humble the meek remnant of them to accept Christ, also by a spirit of faith which God is able to declare righteous and holy.
 
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jerusalem

Guest
#24
are paradise and heaven the same place
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#25
are paradise and heaven the same place
I have been trying to avoid getting into that discussion as I know that it will become necessary for me to put my full attention toward helping you to see the reality, even as it has been toward helping those to see the present reality as to that Old law Covenant.

But give me a few moments here and I will enter into that discussion with you.

For the moment I will leave you with one thought:

Even the earthly paradise Adam and Eve were first in was a part of God's heavens. For it is impossible for a paradise of God to exist outside of heaven. We can begin with that thought.
 
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Mar 15, 2013
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#26
The reality is that not even the Apostles fully understood what heaven was. John humbly admitted, 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Adam was able to see God as he was there in that garden before he sinned. God is a spirit that lives in all his spirits and they in him that he creates. And the first and foremost spirit that God as a spirit lived in and God in him was Jesus. That is why Jesus was in the beginning with God and just as it is said to us, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

The only difference in what that poet said about we humans fallen to corruption of our spirits is that whereas for Jesus God lives in him and he in God, we humans fell away through corruption of our spirits from God living in us. That corrupted spirit in humans is what Paul calls the carnal mind, for it is the spirit which is the force controlling in our minds.

However, if God did not yet let us live in Him we could not exist. Ponder what the poets said for a bit.
 
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Mar 15, 2013
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#27
1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

What Paul tells us there is how it is that Jesus humbled himself as seen in Philippians 2:5-7.

Jesus humbly allowed God to depart from in him when he first came in the flesh that he could be just as us who through a corrupted spirit do not know how to let God live in us. But Jesus did not have to corrupt his spirit to do that. He needed only be willing that God forsake him so that he could demonstrate to us that it is possible for us who do not have God living in us to become able to let God live in us.

This is meaty. So I will pause again. Please tell me if you are able to follow what I am saying or if it confuses you.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#28
I see that in post #26 I misstated myself when I said, "And the first and foremost spirit that God as a spirit lived in and God in him was Jesus."

That should read, 'And the first and foremost spirit that God as a spirit lived in and he in God, was Jesus.'
 
May 24, 2013
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#29
They are yet alive by spirit through love even as Paul described at Romans 13:8-10.

That entire law is yet alive by spirit because it can only give life through spirit. A law to unholy flesh cannot give life but only condemnation of sin, thus empowering sin to kill. Ponder Romans chapter 7 intensely and see. It is all there. Still, you must learn that much of it was mere prophetic foreshadows, not the reality but a mere shadow of the coming reality in Christ.

The promises of that Old Law Covenant were all the promises given to Abraham which can only be given by spirit but God challenged that flesh and said, "Prove that you can be faithful to me of your own accord and then I will give them to you by flesh."

The New Covenant is a spiritual Covenant whereas that Old Covenant was a Covenant of the flesh, even as it's circumcision.

Hear Paul: Romans 4:8 "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it [the righteousness that obtained God's blessings of the promises to Abraham, per Roman 4:3,9] then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

For just as I told you, the Leitical Laws scream loudly that God gives no promises to that which is not holy. I have pointed your nose so that you can look and see, not so that you can refuse to look or to see.

Here what I am saying. That Old Law Covenant conditionally offered promises to the flesh upon the basis that flesh be actually able to keep all of God's law. When God said to them, "If you will obey my voice and keep my law", God was challenging the flesh to prove that it could do what Abraham was able to do by a spirit of faith God attributed to be righteousness. God did that to show up the flesh for it's unholiness that they might repent and find righteousness the same way Abraham did by the spirit of faith. And this inability for them to do would humble the meek remnant of them to accept Christ, also by a spirit of faith which God is able to declare righteous and holy.

Keeping the Commandments of God is what matters. Paul said that. Actually, I don't think you answered the question. The same 10 Commandments of the Old Testament are still the 10 Commandments of today.


All this talk about covenants and spirit and rightousness is just a matter of confusion or mudding up the water. I speak clear questions and I speak clear answers. Why complicate things? Are we to keep the 10 Commandments or not? It's an easy yes, or no.

Specifically the 4th Commandment "Remember the 7th Day Sabbath",,, Is that command still in effect? Or did it become void. If you say we are to keep it and observe it. I will agree. But if you say the command to keep the 7th Day Sabbath is void,, then I desire to know exactly when (at what point in time) you believe the Command to observe The 4th Commandment became void?? Fair enough?
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#30
Keeping the Commandments of God is what matters. Paul said that. Actually, I don't think you answered the question. The same 10 Commandments of the Old Testament are still the 10 Commandments of today.


All this talk about covenants and spirit and rightousness is just a matter of confusion or mudding up the water. I speak clear questions and I speak clear answers. Why complicate things? Are we to keep the 10 Commandments or not? It's an easy yes, or no.

Specifically the 4th Commandment "Remember the 7th Day Sabbath",,, Is that command still in effect? Or did it become void. If you say we are to keep it and observe it. I will agree. But if you say the command to keep the 7th Day Sabbath is void,, then I desire to know exactly when (at what point in time) you believe the Command to observe The 4th Commandment became void?? Fair enough?
There is a proper time and season for everything under the sun, and I see that this is not your time. I do hope your time will prove to be in this season for you.

But you may not be of the true elect of God, that small number being groomed as first fruits of the harvest to be able to teach the main harvest when it arrives.

But it has arrived and you missed the first harvest. That is not a sentence of death to you. Now your life will come by living fountains of water if you are humble enough to drink.
 
May 24, 2013
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#31
There is a proper time and season for everything under the sun, and I see that this is not your time. I do hope your time will prove to be in this season for you.

But you may not be of the true elect of God, that small number being groomed as first fruits of the harvest to be able to teach the main harvest when it arrives.

But it has arrived and you missed the first harvest. That is not a sentence of death to you. Now your life will come by living fountains of water if you are humble enough to drink.
You didn't answer the question. I suppose you can't. We are always to be ready to give an answer for the faith that lives in us. It was such a simple question, yet you decided to duck it. Interesting. It was so simple, that honestly, I can no longer look at your posts and take any of them seriously.
Goodluck.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#32
You didn't answer the question. I suppose you can't. We are always to be ready to give an answer for the faith that lives in us. It was such a simple question, yet you decided to duck it. Interesting. It was so simple, that honestly, I can no longer look at your posts and take any of them seriously.
Goodluck.
You are quite welcome to suppose what you wish. The principal ways that a true elect of God knows he or she is the true elect of God, are:

(1) They know that they have no opinion of their own but only speak as God has spoken and they by God's grace in the power of his spirit were actually elated to be found wrong in what they formerly believed. And,

(2) Suddenly by virtue of the seed of truth God has sown in them they see and understand every angle of an opposer's even more clearly than the person that opposes them does, so that absolutely nothing comes as a surprise to them and they no longer are able to be confused by such opposers.

(3) You would just say I was crazy if I told you the most important way.

Which of course seems like arrogance to the eyes of the real ones who are haughty.

You have not listened to me yet, nor will you listen if I say it ten thousand times a gain, for it is not in you to be willing to look to see or listen to hear but only to prove you are right in your flesh.
 
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Mar 15, 2013
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#33
Please try to understand, Michael50, that you by choice are looking to other men, such as your teacher.

Yet you know that no man could come to Jesus unless they cooperated with God's preparing the way to Jesus in their heart.

Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.'

Matthew 16:16-17 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

And whom is it that leads men to know God's true elect in Christ who are fountains of living water?

Revelation 7:17 "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them [and through feeding them of the word in him], and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Work on that by establishing your faith in God's word through Jesus yet more accurately.
 
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Mar 15, 2013
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#34
I have been trying to avoid getting into that discussion as I know that it will become necessary for me to put my full attention toward helping you to see the reality, even as it has been toward helping those to see the present reality as to that Old law Covenant.

But give me a few moments here and I will enter into that discussion with you.

For the moment I will leave you with one thought:

Even the earthly paradise Adam and Eve were first in was a part of God's heavens. For it is impossible for a paradise of God to exist outside of heaven. We can begin with that thought.
The reality is that not even the Apostles fully understood what heaven was. John humbly admitted, 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Adam was able to see God as he was there in that garden before he sinned. God is a spirit that lives in all his spirits and they in him that he creates. And the first and foremost spirit that God as a spirit lived in and he in God, was Jesus. That is why Jesus was in the beginning with God and just as it is said to us, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

The only difference in what that poet said about we humans fallen to corruption of our spirits is that whereas for Jesus God lives in him and he in God, we humans fell away through corruption of our spirits from God living in us. That corrupted spirit in humans is what Paul calls the carnal mind, for it is the spirit which is the force controlling in our minds.

However, if God did not yet let us live in Him we could not exist. Ponder what the poets said for a bit.
1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

What Paul tells us there is how it is that Jesus humbled himself as seen in Philippians 2:5-7.

Jesus humbly allowed God to depart from in him when he first came in the flesh that he could be just as us who through a corrupted spirit do not know how to let God live in us. But Jesus did not have to corrupt his spirit to do that. He needed only be willing that God forsake him so that he could demonstrate to us that it is possible for us who do not have God living in us to become able to let God live in us.

This is meaty. So I will pause again. Please tell me if you are able to follow what I am saying or if it confuses you.


I am waiting to continue this after I receive from you concerning how you are able to digest it.
 
May 5, 2013
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#35
Keeping the Commandments of God is what matters. Paul said that. Actually, I don't think you answered the question. The same 10 Commandments of the Old Testament are still the 10 Commandments of today.


All this talk about covenants and spirit and rightousness is just a matter of confusion or mudding up the water. I speak clear questions and I speak clear answers. Why complicate things? Are we to keep the 10 Commandments or not? It's an easy yes, or no.

Specifically the 4th Commandment "Remember the 7th Day Sabbath",,, Is that command still in effect? Or did it become void. If you say we are to keep it and observe it. I will agree. But if you say the command to keep the 7th Day Sabbath is void,, then I desire to know exactly when (at what point in time) you believe the Command to observe The 4th Commandment became void?? Fair enough?
That was in the other thread bro, about todays christians keeping the sabbath, they showed several scriptures explaining how the sabbath was done away with with all of the other OT laws ( non 10 commandment laws )

That being said, how did this discussion go from not going to heaven right after you die to keeping the sabbath?
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#36
That was in the other thread bro, about todays christians keeping the sabbath, they showed several scriptures explaining how the sabbath was done away with with all of the other OT laws ( non 10 commandment laws )

That being said, how did this discussion go from not going to heaven right after you die to keeping the sabbath?
In that I answered to his post #14.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#37
are paradise and heaven the same place

I have been trying to avoid getting into that discussion as I know that it will become necessary for me to put my full attention toward helping you to see the reality, even as it has been toward helping those to see the present reality as to that Old law Covenant.

But give me a few moments here and I will enter into that discussion with you.

For the moment I will leave you with one thought:

Even the earthly paradise Adam and Eve were first in was a part of God's heavens. For it is impossible for a paradise of God to exist outside of heaven. We can begin with that thought.
The reality is that not even the Apostles fully understood what heaven was. John humbly admitted, 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Adam was able to see God as he was there in that garden before he sinned. God is a spirit that lives in all his spirits and they in him that he creates. And the first and foremost spirit that God as a spirit lived in and him in God, was Jesus. That is why Jesus was in the beginning with God and just as it is said to us, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

The only difference in what that poet said about we humans fallen to corruption of our spirits is that whereas for Jesus God lives in him and he in God, we humans fell away through corruption of our spirits from God living in us. That corrupted spirit in humans is what Paul calls the carnal mind, for it is the spirit which is the force controlling in our minds.

However, if God did not yet let us live in Him we could not exist. Ponder what the poets said for a bit.
1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

What Paul tells us there is how it is that Jesus humbled himself as seen in Philippians 2:5-7.

Jesus humbly allowed God to depart from in him when he first came in the flesh that he could be just as us who through a corrupted spirit do not know how to let God live in us. But Jesus did not have to corrupt his spirit to do that. He needed only be willing that God forsake him so that he could demonstrate to us that it is possible for us who do not have God living in us to become able to let God live in us.

This is meaty. So I will pause again. Please tell me if you are able to follow what I am saying or if it confuses you.
Still waiting. :) This is about the necessary foundation before one can understand


1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
 
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R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#38
if they where already in heaven why would they need to rise
that is actually easy to answer...

their spirits are in heaven...their bodies are dead...but God created human beings to have both body and spirit...the saints in heaven are with God but they are not 'complete' as designed until the resurrection when they will receive their new bodies...
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#39
that is actually easy to answer...

their spirits are in heaven...their bodies are dead...but God created human beings to have both body and spirit...the saints in heaven are with God but they are not 'complete' as designed until the resurrection when they will receive their new bodies...
That is a pretty good answer as the Saints, even while yet in their mortal human bodies, did rise in the spirit to meet Christ in the air at the call of the last trumpet. No one but they were able to know that, even as upon Jesus' ascension to heaven he was caught out of sight into a cloud.

They rose in the spirit due to the day star coming to full brightness in their heart. 2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.."

The one not taken does not see the other as gone, nor is that one aware that the other has risen as they cannot see the spirit and they will thus say such ones have merely risen in arrogance if they share to the one left behind what has happened. But it has to eventually be revealed for the judgment of hearts. The following is in their spirit:

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Now, do you understand verse 43? It tells us why the one that was left behind did not rise to meet Christ in their spirit.

It compares to the ten virgins, 5 foolish and 5 wise.
 
Mar 15, 2013
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#40
I should also have added in post #39 that this is as was promised here: Revelation 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The nations they are given power over are the spiritual nations of the great crowd in Revelation chapter 7.

That is all speaking spiritually.
 
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