Any Strong Apologists want to discuss things?

[EasterLuv]

now now easter. you're just ticked off that Freemasons can't be christians.

and i am blinded by your holy shining fruit here:



you mentioned real enemies trying to kill us...who are they exactly?
do we get to know or is it a secret?



what a self-righteous hypocrite.
i just read enough of your posts to make me need to go lie down for awhile.
ugh.

Maybe you should do some praying while you're lying down. Reevaluate.

 

[Ariel82]

after reading through this thread I think everyone needs to say and receive some prayers............


anyway, to the OP. you can pm me questions and I'll try my best to answer. at the very least I'll pray that God gives you His wisdom to know His truth.

I'm going to find a thread that actually talks about Jesus and the Bible for a bit..or maybe wander into the Prayer of family forums.

 

[EasterLuv]

Ephesians 6: 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

These are our enemies. This is who the Bible warns us of. They are not of this earth, and the only way we can battle them is through prayer and leading the life Christ asks us to live.

 

[Moetown]

Zone, You forgot to bold the part where I said "Fun read." I occassionally enjoy branching out and doing some side reading. In doing so, I recently learned about the Genesis Gap theory, or more accuratetly called the Ruin/Reconstruction theory. Not that I adhere to it, but interesting stuff there.

@EsterzLuv, "You sit in here and pat each other on the back and say, "yeah, we're right. They're all wrong. Poor things."

I definately see that alot on these threads. Along with a good chunck of "If you don't go to this church and completely agree with the 2 million bullet points of doctrine we ascribe to, you are not a Christian." A fair amount of Christian Elitism. Not trying to say that I am Mr. GotItAllTogether, just agreeing with your observation.

 

[kenisyes]

what false Messiahs existed in everybody's minds, without existing in real reality too ?

Does not skepticism first require some sort of contradiction, before one can claim fraud ? If a story checks out, seems perfectly plausible, then why quibble ? Or, if we quibble, then we could quibble on everything, and convince ourselves to be (reasonably) certain of nothing.

There was a guy from Galilee, people perceived him as a Prophet animated by "God in heaven", some loving him, and others hating him. Why bother denying the existence of Jesus?

I wish the original poster would come back and reorient this thread.

The contradiction is that the Biblical claims for Jesus seem to contradict scientific possibility. In an athiest that lads to the belief that the Bible is a lie, and Jesus did not exist. The claim can be bolstered with appeals to other literature where people worked miracles. If they all are correct, then Jesus is not special. If one are wrong, all may be wrong, and Jesus is not proved. Either way, there is no reason to believe in HIm.

 

[EasterLuv]

I wish the original poster would come back and reorient this thread.

The contradiction is that the Biblical claims for Jesus seem to contradict scientific possibility. In an athiest that lads to the belief that the Bible is a lie, and Jesus did not exist. The claim can be bolstered with appeals to other literature where people worked miracles. If they all are correct, then Jesus is not special. If one are wrong, all may be wrong, and Jesus is not proved. Either way, there is no reason to believe in HIm.

I'll try to help reorient kenisyes. I'd forgotten all about it. I'd just picked up where I saw the last few posts leave off.

I sure do love Christian apologists. lol. I should read more of such literature. There are many people searching who that type of reasoning works well for when it comes to urging them towards our Lord. Of course, those last few yards always take a leap of faith, but it's hard to get anywhere in the vicinity of that jump in this day-and-age without reasoning a certain amount out. But that's a good thing, right? With all the religions we've got to pick from these days? I say God gave us our minds so we'd use them. I'm just sure He doesn't want a bunch of blind followers that only choose Christianity because they think it gives them a ticket to heaven. It's like the truth has very little to do with what they believe. Many Christians don't care enough about whether their doctrines are just or not, or whether they're true to scriptures or not. I fear that's why so many atheists look at Christianity and say; "that makes no sense whatsoever, and these guys don't even care!" I actually appreciate people that choose against believing something they don't think is right, allowing themselves to drift off to sea with no hope in anything, rather than choose that which they think is wrong. So hey, apologists, show them them how right this is!

 

[Angela53510]

Home again, home again, jiggedy, jig!

So I have quite a library of books on Apologetics, which I collected during my time in Seminary, and under a pastor who is very interested in the topic.

I will start with the easier books and work my way up to the near impossible to read! LOL

1. Is God Just a Human Invention? And Seventeen Other Questions Raised by the New Atheists - Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow.

2. The Questions Christians Hope No One Will Ask (with answers!) Mark Mittleberg

3. Does God Exist? The Debate between Theists and Atheists -JP Moreland and Kai Nielsen

4. Scaling the Secular City: A Defense of Christianity - JP Moreland

5.To Everyone An Answer: A Case for the Christian Worldview - Eds. Francis J. Beckwith, William Lane Craig, JP Moreland

6. Dialogical Apologetics: A Person Centered Approach to Christian Defense - David K. Clark.

7. Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, 3 Ed. - William Lane Craig

8. On Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision - William Lane Craig

9. Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith - Douglas Groothuis.

10. Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview - JP Moreland and William Lane Craig

There are a few more, but these are probably the best. Much better to study them then ask us questions, if the OP (who has gone missing, I heard??) is really serious about God and Jesus.

PS. Some Christians might also be interested in learning more on how to defend their faith to people who do not believe the Bible. This is only a stepping stone to the real truth, but necessary for some people!!

 

[kenisyes]

I'll try to help reorient kenisyes. I'd forgotten all about it. I'd just picked up where I saw the last few posts leave off.

I checked in detail. Unbound soul made 6 posts on the first day of the thread, and has not been back since. That was probably Sunday, so we may well have to wait until the weekend until he can return. I think without the atheist point of view, we run the risk of not being held to proper standards of apologetics, that it, of showing not that we are right to believe in Jesus, but rather, that we are not being idiots to believe in Jesus, but that such belief is reasonable for educated people. We usually respond in faith to each other, and forget that much of the world is not there yet.

 

[EasterLuv]

Home again, home again, jiggedy, jig!

So I have quite a library of books on Apologetics, which I collected during my time in Seminary, and under a pastor who is very interested in the topic.

I will start with the easier books and work my way up to the near impossible to read! LOL

1. Is God Just a Human Invention? And Seventeen Other Questions Raised by the New Atheists - Sean McDowell and Jonathan Morrow.

2. The Questions Christians Hope No One Will Ask (with answers!) Mark Mittleberg

3. Does God Exist? The Debate between Theists and Atheists -JP Moreland and Kai Nielsen

4. Scaling the Secular City: A Defense of Christianity - JP Moreland

5.To Everyone An Answer: A Case for the Christian Worldview - Eds. Francis J. Beckwith, William Lane Craig, JP Moreland

6. Dialogical Apologetics: A Person Centered Approach to Christian Defense - David K. Clark.

7. Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, 3 Ed. - William Lane Craig

8. On Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision - William Lane Craig

9. Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith - Douglas Groothuis.

10. Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview - JP Moreland and William Lane Craig

There are a few more, but these are probably the best. Much better to study them then ask us questions, if the OP (who has gone missing, I heard??) is really serious about God and Jesus.

PS. Some Christians might also be interested in learning more on how to defend their faith to people who do not believe the Bible. This is only a stepping stone to the real truth, but necessary for some people!!

Angela. Dad burn. You're telling us we've all got to read at least one of these books before discussing this? That's could take awhile! Can't you slam up a few points we could all review and discuss? lol. Or maybe there's some good websites that summarize these books? I fear this thread will go stone dead if we all try to read some of these books before we discuss. But I'll sure look into them.

 

[Angela53510]

Angela. Dad burn. You're telling us we've all got to read at least one of these books before discussing this? That's could take awhile! Can't you slam up a few points we could all review and discuss? lol. Or maybe there's some good websites that summarize these books? I fear this thread will go stone dead if we all try to read some of these books before we discuss. But I'll sure look into them.

No, NO!! They are just suggestions - start with the simple ones at the top of the list, and if it seems to be where God wants you, keep going.

Basically, these are all rational arguments for the existence of God. The existence of Jesus is another area of apologetics, usually the topic of more popular books, like The Case of Christ or Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

If you want me to sum up, it would take a lot of posts. That is why I would read the 17 arguments first. It would be a good start! Stay away from the last two. I have used them, but a lot of logic, philosophy and math stuff!

 

[Widdekind]

1) an atheist can take "Jesus + Miracles" --> "Jesus", dispensing the "Miracles" but accepting the guy from Galilee

2) many of the "Miracles" seem plainly natural, e.g. the tomb-stone toppled in an earthquake. I.e. there was an earthquake at the Crucifixion on Thursday; later, Joseph of Arimathea rolled a stone in front of the tomb Thursday evening... and early Sunday, there was an after-shock, toppling the tomb-stone

3) before the Crucifixion, Jesus + Judas + 11 Apostles; afterwards, Jesus + 11 Apostles. Atheists could claim Judas was somehow a stand-in for Jesus; Judas hung on the cross; Joseph grabbed Judas' body, and in the darkness, dumped it south of the city; the tomb was never anything other than empty; yet, Supra-normally, there was an earthquake Sunday morning, toppling the tomb-stone.

4) you can take a scientific middle ground, accepting some "Razzle Dazzle" from "God in heaven" (earthquakes, lightning, geo-physical & atmospheric FX), without requiring any human-known Laws of Physics to have ever been violated.

5) parity -- let those who deny the existence of "that guy from Galilee" offer up what hard evidence they have, for his non-existence; when all they can point to, for firm negative evidence, is blatantly biased claims from political opponents, then they too have nothing credible to claim on. Ergo, the preponderance of the evidence suggests (strongly), that there actually once was some guy from Galilee named Joshua, who tried to pass himself off as the Prophesied Messiah of the OT -- and certainly seems to have done a far better, and far far more sophisticated job, of doing so, than any other of his contemporaries, all of whom were defeated by Rome, whereas His Church did in fact convert Rome

6) there is a middle ground, of non-dis-believing rationalism, whereby one remains planted upon this planet, yet surprisingly Supra-normally surprised staring up towards starry heaven -- there really was a Galilean guy named Joshua, whose actions on earth, were statistically Supra-normally associated, with an anomalous number, of geo-physical & atmospheric FX, which "Razzle Dazzled" people present

7) Hugh Schonfield can take athiests all the way through the Gospels, on a perfectly explicable 3 year tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6---itsv98
(HS "bumps & sets" perfectly, but then utterly fails the "spike" -- the most parsimonious possibility, from a purely skeptical POV, is that Jesus + Judas + 11 --> Jesus + 11 because Judas the Sicarii stood in for his Messiah, bearing the Curse in his place)

I wish the original poster would come back and reorient this thread.

The contradiction is that the Biblical claims for Jesus seem to contradict scientific possibility. In an athiest that lads to the belief that the Bible is a lie, and Jesus did not exist. The claim can be bolstered with appeals to other literature where people worked miracles. If they all are correct, then Jesus is not special. If one are wrong, all may be wrong, and Jesus is not proved. Either way, there is no reason to believe in HIm.

 

[Ariel82]

The OP hasn't logged on in 4 days, which is when he first created this thread. I wonder what he will think when/if he comes back....

 

[Descyple]

I can bench-press 250 lbs, and I make no apologies about it!!!

Is that what is meant by "A strong apologist"???

 

[jimmydiggs]

yet there is no evidence of Jesus' existence

That's not what the majority of historians have said.

 

[zone]

That's not what the majority of historians have said.

and then there's always this to consider:

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

i'm really liking the presuppositional apologetics approach: 'oh come on...you know Jesus Christ existed, you know He Revealed the One True God. you know it's true. you be suppressin' it. - ready to hear the Good News?'

 

[jimmydiggs]

and then there's always this to consider:

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

i'm really liking the presuppositional apologetics approach: 'oh come on...you know Jesus Christ existed, you know He Revealed the One True God. you know it's true. you be suppressin' it. - ready to hear the Good News?'

I am a presuppositionalist. I just love it when the "I'M THE EVIDENCE KING" types go "YEAh, THE EVIDENCE SAYS THAT BUT I DONT SO THERE", it tickles me.