gal 3:10-12 to those who keep looking law ward.

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Are you saying that all of Christ's teachings prior to the crucifixion are no longer valid?

Of course not.

Christ was hinting at the greater law of faith when he told his disciples that their righteousness would have to exceed that of the pharisees in order to find life. This baffled them because the pharisees were the experts at keeping laws, which, at the time, is what they thought defined righteousness.

 

[john832]

Of course not.

Christ was hinting at the greater law of faith when he told his disciples that their righteousness would have to exceed that of the pharisees in order to find life. This baffled them because the pharisees were the experts at keeping laws, which, at the time, is what they thought defined righteousness.

Help me understand then which of His teachings are OK and which are not. I kinda fell for this line...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[notuptome]

Are you saying that all of Christ's teachings prior to the crucifixion are no longer valid?

One can look at Gods grace like the ocean. As far as the eye can only water in every direction. So it is with Gods grace. No sin in sight in any direction only Gods righteousness. From our perspective we can see only the surface. When we step out by faith we find the depths of Gods grace, unfathomable and inexhaustible.
No, no one is saying that Christ's teaching are not valid but they have been perfected at Calvary. Christ spoke to His kinsmen according to the flesh. They rejected what He had to say preferring their understanding to His understanding. Nothing much has changed. Men still seek to worship with their lips and not their hearts. Only those who know Him and are known by Him can possibly understand His words. My Lord is pleased when I recognize my weakness and am perfected in His strength. Never perfect in this body of flesh but always forgiven through His sacrifice on Calvary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Help me understand then which of His teachings are OK and which are not. I kinda fell for this line...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All of the law and the OT is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. No question about it. However, doing law will not make you holy or righteous. Yet the instruction of law can and does point you to what will - faith in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hmmm, Romans 8:3-4 huh?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So the Law could not forgive sin? OK, no problem. What was the problem with the Law? The flesh was weak. OK, got that.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us? OK, so how does that equate to the Law being done away in direct contradiction to Christ's plain statement...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Yet Paul wrote this...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

In the which he summarizes the Law of love thy neighbor as being the fulfillment of KEEPING the last six Commandments.

Right now are you under the civil law of murder? I woudl assume not, you are not under the law of murder unless you commit murder. I have never killed anyone, so I am not under the law concerning murder. If I kill someone today, it won't take long for me to realize I am now under the law of murder. Since the state I live in has no death penalty, I'll probably rot in prison.

Being under the Law menas you are subject to the Law and it's penalty. Christ paid that penalty for you and me. Example...

A man kills his boss. He is caught tried and found guilty. At the sentencing phase of the proceedings, the judge sentences Him to death. A nice person steps up and says "I know this man is guilty, I know he deserves the death penalty, but I will take it for him." And he does, you are now free to go because this nice person died in your stead. What does that do to the law against murder? Does that do away with the law? Does that make you free to go out and kill your next five bosses? Of course not. Need I explain the analogy above? We are not subject to the Law because Christ died to satisfy this...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, first of all, what is sin?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What puts us under the death penalty?

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The answer to sin is not doing away with the Law, that is anarchy. The answer is repentance and forgiveness...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Our sins are remitted by repenting, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit as a consequence.

So what happens when we go back to a life of sin (transgressing God's Law)?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God's wonderful grace, the free, unearned pardon for breaking His Law is not license to continue...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

How does Paul feel about the Commandments?

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Grace is not anarchy, it is the free, unearned, undeserved forgiveness for transgressing the Law, not the doing away with the Law.

Here is what it means to be free from the Law...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Your so close.

1. Licencse to sin? No one I know is teaching this. However. many people teaching against this is placing us back under law. Which is just as bas as teaching licentiousness.

2. Jesus died for our sin 2000 years ago. He either paid the debt for every sin we ever commited before we were born. or he only paid for sin up to a point. If the second is true. any sin we commit after that point is eternally condemning, because there would be no more sacrifice for that sin.

3. Hebrews is teaching a very strong point/. those trying to return to law are in dire trouble. For if one can fall away, they can not be renewed without christ returning and paying for the sin which was not forgiven and caused someone to fall away. Trying to return to law puts Jesus to open shame. It says his death was not sufficient.

4. Grace is unmerited favor. If ANYONE thinks they will ever, while alive on this earth. no longer have the need for grace, they are in dire straights and in danger.

5. The law is not done away with. You, I we all need the law to continue to prove to us we need grace, because if we did not have the law, we all would think we somehow made it, and no longer need the grace of God. which to me is scary. On any given moment of any given day, if we stood in front of Christ, we would be ashamed of the sin we commit on a daily basis but do not even know it. Because we have not come to a full understanding of the law. we would see ourselves as Paul did. Wretched men and women who pray and await the redemption of our bodies, When ONLY THEN, we will be completely free from sin.

Stop listening to satans lies of perfection, which sounds good. But is only good to our human nature, but makes god puke because it does not teach his love or forgiveness!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All of the law and the OT is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. No question about it. However, doing law will not make you holy or righteous. Yet the instruction of law can and does point you to what will - faith in Christ.

Amen, it points us to faith in the love of God. because we realise we can not fulfill the law. even AFTER we were adopted into his family. yet he loves us anyway!

 

[john832]

All of the law and the OT is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. No question about it. However, doing law will not make you holy or righteous. Yet the instruction of law can and does point you to what will - faith in Christ.

Well Yeaah! That is exactly what I believe. Keeping the Law perfectly for 100 lifetimes of 100 years each will not earn eternal life. Eternal life is the gift of God. I comes by faith and that is the faith of Christ not ours...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But God does not lavish His grace on those who will not repent of sin. Sin is the transgressing of the Law so the opposite of breaking God's Law is righteousness. David put it very clearly...

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

So can we keep God's Law perfectly? No, but we can strive to obey. God wants an obedient attitude from us and then forgives us and clears us from guilt when we do slip and fall as long as we are striving not to sin.

 

[Michael50]

Anybody that teaches the 10 commandments are void or cannot be kept, is decieved. And lots of folks love to teach that we can't obey God, that his Commandments are burdensome. Do not believe these false teachers.

Let a man cheat on his wife. Watch how upset she becomes because her husband made the CHOICE to commit adultery!

If we can't keep the law, why should the wife be angry? Why would she marry someone, if she knew they couldn't be faithful to her? Yet they take vows before men and God Himself, claiming their fidelity to one another, knowing beforehand they are both liars?

Or, which of us tells a baby to "stay down", when he learns to walk and falls? Surely we all know he will fall again. Yet, we stand him up and tell him to keep trying... So it is with keeping Gods Law when one of us fails at any point. We have an advocate, Jesus. And Jesus forgives us, and at no point says quit trying or stay down.

"If ye Love me, keep my commandments."

let us say what we mean, and mean what we say.

I say,,we are to keep and observe the 10 Commandments as well as, believe Jesus is the Messiah!

I don't keep the Law because it saves me,, I keep it because I love Jesus. Same with my vows that i made to my wife. I keep my vows to my wife because I love her. No other reason. i don't need any other reason. Love is enough!

 

[john832]

Your so close.

1. Licencse to sin? No one I know is teaching this. However. many people teaching against this is placing us back under law. Which is just as bas as teaching licentiousness.

2. Jesus died for our sin 2000 years ago. He either paid the debt for every sin we ever commited before we were born. or he only paid for sin up to a point. If the second is true. any sin we commit after that point is eternally condemning, because there would be no more sacrifice for that sin.

3. Hebrews is teaching a very strong point/. those trying to return to law are in dire trouble. For if one can fall away, they can not be renewed without christ returning and paying for the sin which was not forgiven and caused someone to fall away. Trying to return to law puts Jesus to open shame. It says his death was not sufficient.

4. Grace is unmerited favor. If ANYONE thinks they will ever, while alive on this earth. no longer have the need for grace, they are in dire straights and in danger.

5. The law is not done away with. You, I we all need the law to continue to prove to us we need grace, because if we did not have the law, we all would think we somehow made it, and no longer need the grace of God. which to me is scary. On any given moment of any given day, if we stood in front of Christ, we would be ashamed of the sin we commit on a daily basis but do not even know it. Because we have not come to a full understanding of the law. we would see ourselves as Paul did. Wretched men and women who pray and await the redemption of our bodies, When ONLY THEN, we will be completely free from sin.

Stop listening to satans lies of perfection, which sounds good. But is only good to our human nature, but makes god puke because it does not teach his love or forgiveness!

Who is listening to lies of perfection? I know who I am and am very thankful for the following...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I know that I sin. I go before that very throne of grace daily and ask for forgiveness, but I also ask for the spirit of repentance to continue to strive against sinning.

 

[john832]

Anybody that teaches the 10 commandments are void or cannot be kept, is decieved. And lots of folks love to teach that we can't obey God, that his Commandments are burdensome. Do not believe these false teachers.

Let a man cheat on his wife. Watch how upset she becomes because her husband made the CHOICE to commit adultery!

If we can't keep the law, why should the wife be angry? Why would she marry someone, if she knew they couldn't be faithful to her? Yet they take vows before men and God Himself, claiming their fidelity to one another, knowing beforehand they are both liars?

Or, which of us tells a baby to "stay down", when he learns to walk and falls? Surely we all know he will fall again. Yet, we stand him up and tell him to keep trying... So it is with keeping Gods Law when one of us fails at any point. We have an advocate, Jesus. And Jesus forgives us, and at no point says quit trying or stay down.

"If ye Love me, keep my commandments."

let us say what we mean, and mean what we say.

I say,,we are to keep and observe the 10 Commandments as well as, believe Jesus is the Messiah!

I don't keep the Law because it saves me,, I keep it because I love Jesus. Same with my vows that i made to my wife. I keep my vows to my wife because I love her. No other reason. i don't need any other reason. Love is enough!

I not only keep the Law because I love God and Christ, but I also keep the Law simply because God says to. that is enough reason right there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well Yeaah! That is exactly what I believe. Keeping the Law perfectly for 100 lifetimes of 100 years each will not earn eternal life. Eternal life is the gift of God. I comes by faith and that is the faith of Christ not ours...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But God does not lavish His grace on those who will not repent of sin. Sin is the transgressing of the Law so the opposite of breaking God's Law is righteousness. David put it very clearly...

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

So can we keep God's Law perfectly? No, but we can strive to obey. God wants an obedient attitude from us and then forgives us and clears us from guilt when we do slip and fall as long as we are striving not to sin.

repenting of sin does not make one sinless.

Being sinless will not get anyone to heaven.

We can not repent over and over and expect to get to heaven. repentance only comes once. If you do not believe this. then you have not yet repented.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who is listening to lies of perfection? I know who I am and am very thankful for the following...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I know that I sin. I go before that very throne of grace daily and ask for forgiveness, but I also ask for the spirit of repentance to continue to strive against sinning.

All that is fine and good. But if you are doing this to maintain your salvation. or not to lose it. You are in dire straights, because you are still depending on self. and Not God.

those who are truly born again and have been given eternal life understand this. And come to God as an abba father who loves them no matter what. and not as a fear mongering God satan wants us to think he is..

Which one do you want? the god of love, or the God who can not keep his promises?

 

[john832]

repenting of sin does not make one sinless.

Being sinless will not get anyone to heaven.

We can not repent over and over and expect to get to heaven. repentance only comes once. If you do not believe this. then you have not yet repented.

The attitude of repentance is what one prays for, but one repents of sin when he finds it in himself. It is a process...

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

What is the point here? Is this not also a representation of God and us?

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Has this church never repented in the first place?

How about this one?

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

The only church Christ mentions here that doesn't need to repent of something is Philadelphia. Now are you saying that the other six had never repented and were not converted or were not God's church?

 

[RedTent]

It seems so simple to me, it is hard for me to understand how there can be questions about it all among those who are called by Christ. I think that people are picking out the fine points of it God gives, and looking at these without seeing the whole plan first and how the verses explain the fine points. Like looking at each tree in a forest to see the forest.

1. God is God, he created us and is Holy. We aren't. He is the one who can save us, we can't do it. It is called grace.
2. We know sin, we are made of flesh. Sin and God can't live together. So God sent Christ to clean us to a state of sinlessness.
3. God asks that we do everything we can to keep from sin, God calls it obedience.

The Old and New testaments gets all mixed up too, if you don't get the overall picture first, and let the verses fit it together. The OT covers much more time of our world than the NT, it is the same world and the same God. Christ worked in the OT for atonement, Christ works in the new for salvation. The same Christ was in our world, but there was a difference He made by living as a man here on earth. Now, we need to look at each verse to find what that changed and how the change worked. It changed the temple, the high priest, the blood, etc. Before those things were a symbol only of the real thing and if we learn all about the symbols we understand the real thing better. It made those symbols obsolete, don't need to use symbols for the real thing any more. But we need every word of the OT because it is the foundation of the New, it is what we build and grow on.

God is eternal, everything to God simply is. We think in terms of time. So we put a year and date to Christ, but in God Christ simply is. That is why the symbol of Christ was so for atonement before Christ was using our time. But God used our gift of time to complete the work Christ did.

If you pick out verses explaining the fine points of all this without fitting them into the whole, then the fine points only get you mixed up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The attitude of repentance is what one prays for, but one repents of sin when he finds it in himself. It is a process...

How can it be a process which keeps going and going if we can NOT BE BORN AGAIN until we fully repent?

Repent is not asking forgiveness. it is admitting you are hopless without God. Which is something the human nature can not fathom. One who has truly repented does not think he will stop sinning, He just understands without God there is no hope.

If you want to keep repenting and hope to KEEP your salvation by doing so. You are in dangerous ground, and have not yet repented completely. and I fear for your salvation.

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

What is the point here? Is this not also a representation of God and us?

Yep. What is God saying? He is saying forgive him as he forgave us, Unconditionally. If God places conditions on our salvation, it is a gospel of works not Grace, because we have to earn it. Do you think you can earn salvation?

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Has this church never repented in the first place?

Yes it did, The CHURCH as a whole is context here. NOT induvidual people. God is telling the CHURCH if she does not return he will remove their candlstick (their light) He does not say he will take back his salvation. talk about taking something out of Context!

How about this one?

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

The only church Christ mentions here that doesn't need to repent of something is Philadelphia. Now are you saying that the other six had never repented and were not converted or were not God's church?

lol.. Context context context.

Rev is talking about WHOLE churches. Not induvidual people in those churches.

you want to try again? you failed to prove your point.

do you believe in eternal life or conditional life?

In the OT Isreal was in sin, and God continues to tell them to repent. Does that mean Daniel was not saved? it had nothing to do with daniel. it had to do with the nation. many people were saved in isreal. like in the church/ but the church has a history of turning from the truth. and God is warning them. Not individuals. I would venture to say all those churches had people who were saved in them, But God was not talking to them, he spoke to the church as a whole.

 

[Blain]

There does seem to be two kinds of beliefs here, the ones who believe they are saved and righteous in Gods eyes by following his laws closely and the ones who believe we are no longer bound by the law but by the blood of christ. both can be taken too far, if any of you remember sinless he had convinced himself he was righteous and true to god because he followed the law and never sinned. So this itself explains how one can take the law too far. But then there is the other side of the coin where one can do whatever they wish and say( it's okay, i am covered by grace) that doesn't seem right either does it?

What many people do not realize is that the law and the blood of christ are two sides of the same coin, there is a bridge that connects them. before christ shed his blood people followed the law our of fear and respect for god, knowing what breaking the law leads too. now when Jesus shed his blood we no longer follow the law because of fear, but because we love him. Jesus never once broke the law and he had much more temptation to do so than us, why did he never break them? because they were from God and they are the fruit of the spirit.

 

[starfield]

Right now are you under the civil law of murder? I woudl assume not, you are not under the law of murder unless you commit murder. I have never killed anyone, so I am not under the law concerning murder. If I kill someone today, it won't take long for me to realize I am now under the law of murder. Since the state I live in has no death penalty, I'll probably rot in prison.

Being under the Law menas you are subject to the Law and it's penalty. Christ paid that penalty for you and me. Example...

A man kills his boss. He is caught tried and found guilty. At the sentencing phase of the proceedings, the judge sentences Him to death. A nice person steps up and says "I know this man is guilty, I know he deserves the death penalty, but I will take it for him." And he does, you are now free to go because this nice person died in your stead. What does that do to the law against murder? Does that do away with the law? Does that make you free to go out and kill your next five bosses? Of course not. Need I explain the analogy above? We are not subject to the Law because Christ died to satisfy this...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, first of all, what is sin?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What puts us under the death penalty?

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The answer to sin is not doing away with the Law, that is anarchy. The answer is repentance and forgiveness...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Our sins are remitted by repenting, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit as a consequence.

So what happens when we go back to a life of sin (transgressing God's Law)?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God's wonderful grace, the free, unearned pardon for breaking His Law is not license to continue...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

How does Paul feel about the Commandments?

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Grace is not anarchy, it is the free, unearned, undeserved forgiveness for transgressing the Law, not the doing away with the Law.

Here is what it means to be free from the Law...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It's good that you did not endorse antinomianism or legalism here because both are fallacies. Jesus died on our behalf to put an end to the law for righteousness (Romans 10:4) and provide abundant grace but that grace isn't a license for anarchy. In essence, in Christ we are not under the penalty of the law (Romans 8:1) and our service to God is not by following the letter of the law but abiding in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus consequently, we produce the fruits of righteousness. (Phil 1:11).

 

[crossnote]

Well Yeaah! That is exactly what I believe. Keeping the Law perfectly for 100 lifetimes of 100 years each will not earn eternal life. Eternal life is the gift of God. I comes by faith and that is the faith of Christ not ours...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But God does not lavish His grace on those who will not repent of sin. Sin is the transgressing of the Law so the opposite of breaking God's Law is righteousness. David put it very clearly...

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

So can we keep God's Law perfectly? No, but we can strive to obey. God wants an obedient attitude from us and then forgives us and clears us from guilt when we do slip and fall as long as we are striving not to sin.

bbecause as christians we have died to the law (rom 7:1-4), our relationship is one of faith/trust in Christ Jesus his grace is lavished upon us.

 

[RedTent]

bbecause as christians we have died to the law (rom 7:1-4), our relationship is one of faith/trust in Christ Jesus his grace is lavished upon us.

That is what I mean by picking out verses about explanations God gives us about one aspect of Him. We have died to the law, it can't kill us because we have Christ. We have faith in this and trust it. God's grace is beyond words like wonderful. Those are facts that fit into the overall plan God has for us. If I posted only about obedience, or what God says about the need for works, those would also be facts and truth. But the whole truth has to have these truths fit into the whole of God's plan for us. One without the other is not all of truth.

 

[crossnote]

Anybody that teaches the 10 commandments are void or cannot be kept, is decieved. And lots of folks love to teach that we can't obey God, that his Commandments are burdensome. Do not believe these false teachers.

Let a man cheat on his wife. Watch how upset she becomes because her husband made the CHOICE to commit adultery!

If we can't keep the law, why should the wife be angry? Why would she marry someone, if she knew they couldn't be faithful to her? Yet they take vows before men and God Himself, claiming their fidelity to one another, knowing beforehand they are both liars?

Or, which of us tells a baby to "stay down", when he learns to walk and falls? Surely we all know he will fall again. Yet, we stand him up and tell him to keep trying... So it is with keeping Gods Law when one of us fails at any point. We have an advocate, Jesus. And Jesus forgives us, and at no point says quit trying or stay down.

"If ye Love me, keep my commandments."

let us say what we mean, and mean what we say.

I say,,we are to keep and observe the 10 Commandments as well as, believe Jesus is the Messiah!

I don't keep the Law because it saves me,, I keep it because I love Jesus. Same with my vows that i made to my wife. I keep my vows to my wife because I love her. No other reason. i don't need any other reason. Love is enough!

Does your wife love you because you give her commands and she follows them?
Is your love for her unconditional?